Irregular Liturgy, possible abuses?

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woodland_poet

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In my parish this year, I walked out of Christmas mass for the second straight year. ( I didn’t even get seated this year!) As I walked into mass, our nun who is also the head of the Catholic school said to a parishoner who asked for a bulletin that “It’s only Christmas.” In addition to that is another more important problem. Standing next to this nun was the homosexual young man who with his partner provides the music for the Liturgy. It’s my understanding that these young men are not even Catholic. They are frequently at the 11 o’clock Sunday Masses. It’s a small community and it’s no secret that these two men are in a same sex relationship. So, for the record, lest we delve into the “Are you really sure they are gay?” or “How do you know that are not simply struggling with same sex attraction?” discussions, assume that you and I, like the rest of my community, are 101% certain that they are a same sex couple living under the same roof doing whatever gay people do. In addition, the penitential rite was ommitted as well as the Creed. The Creed is often omitted from Sunday mass and at such times that the priest does say the Creed, he changes the words. Examples: For us… and our salvation (“men” omitted) and He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became a man; (“a” inserted). In addition, we sometimes have out of Liturgy blessings for children, mother, father, etc, talks from the Catholic nun about school matters from the pulpit and even had one of the students one week address the parish from the pulpit about the need to support Catholic Schools. It’s all very disconcerting. My mother went to mass yesterday and said that she was never so disgusted with a Mass in all her life. I don’t know what to do. How much abuse is too much abuse? I have written the Bishops office and I’ve essentially been told that my priest would be happy to explain to me why this is all okay and that my concerns and love for the faith are appreciated, etc, etc…
 
I have no answer but I am having the same problem at my parish. Word changes and, worse, a homily that encouraged the parishoners to hope for a change in the Church which will allow for women priests. (:eek:) This was this morning at 9:30 A.M. Mass. Father followed that comment with, “Well, we all know it’s not going to happen during Benedict’s watch”.
I am appauled and disgusted also.
What the heck is going on ?!?!?!?
 
woodland_poet said:
In . It’s all very disconcerting. .
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disconcerting certainly but you have not described anything connected with the liturgy itself except the wording of one prayer, which you could have mistaken. No abuse, no report. If you have a problem with how the person in charge of CCD-RE or the school is conducting her program tell the pastor and be specific. Reminding a parishioner that the bulletin is published only on Sunday, not holy days does not count. If you have a problem with any of the lay ministers with the music or other aspects of the liturgy, ditto. If there is a genuine abuse of the words and actions of the liturgy itself, go through channels, beginning with the pastor, and simply ask him why this or that was done. There is a lay witness protocol as a sticky on this forum that guides you when and how to approach the bishop.
 
An openly homosexual person is singing the words of the Liturgy in the course of a Catholic Mass. This is not abuse? Omitting parts of the Mass itself? This is not abuse?
 
woodland_poet said:
In my parish this year, I walked out of Christmas mass for the second straight year. ( I didn’t even get seated this year!) As I walked into mass, our nun who is also the head of the Catholic school said to a parishoner who asked for a bulletin that “It’s only Christmas.” In addition to that is another more important problem. Standing next to this nun was the homosexual young man who with his partner provides the music for the Liturgy. It’s my understanding that these young men are not even Catholic. They are frequently at the 11 o’clock Sunday Masses. It’s a small community and it’s no secret that these two men are in a same sex relationship. So, for the record, lest we delve into the “Are you really sure they are gay?” or “How do you know that are not simply struggling with same sex attraction?” discussions, assume that you and I, like the rest of my community, are 101% certain that they are a same sex couple living under the same roof doing whatever gay people do. In addition, the penitential rite was ommitted as well as the Creed. The Creed is often omitted from Sunday mass and at such times that the priest does say the Creed, he changes the words. Examples: For us… and our salvation (“men” omitted) and He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became a man; (“a” inserted). In addition, we sometimes have out of Liturgy blessings for children, mother, father, etc, talks from the Catholic nun about school matters from the pulpit and even had one of the students one week address the parish from the pulpit about the need to support Catholic Schools. It’s all very disconcerting. My mother went to mass yesterday and said that she was never so disgusted with a Mass in all her life. I don’t know what to do. How much abuse is too much abuse? I have written the Bishops office and I’ve essentially been told that my priest would be happy to explain to me why this is all okay and that my concerns and love for the faith are appreciated, etc, etc…
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Changing the Creed is a definite abuse (One of the reasons we are seperate from the Orthodox is that we added filioque to the Creed), the Penitential Rite can be ommited but the kyerie can’t so if the Lord have mercy is ommitted, your Priest is not following the GIRM, which means he is disobeying Rome. Also an openly homosexual man may help with the music, but since he is openly homosexual the Priest has the right to deny him the Blessed Sacrament, and actually must do if he has full knowledge that the man is not in a state of Grace, else he is guilty of Sin. And talks from the Pulpit may be done by the Nun and Student, but it must be at the end of Mass, which means after the Final Blessing.
catsrus said:
I have no answer but I am having the same problem at my parish. Word changes and, worse, a homily that encouraged the parishoners to hope for a change in the Church which will allow for women priests. (:eek:) This was this morning at 9:30 A.M. Mass. Father followed that comment with, “Well, we all know it’s not going to happen during Benedict’s watch”.
I am appauled and disgusted also.
What the heck is going on ?!?!?!?
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Contact your Bishop, your Priest is expressing opinions in opposition to Rome and 2000 years of Tradition, if your Bishop wont listen, contact the Bishops Conference and your Cardinal.
 
Thanks Skeptic92 for that advice. I am hoping for some more folks to pick up on this since this is the second parish I have attended that the priest opined in the exact same way during the homily. Being a convert, I questioned whether I’d missed something or am too rigid.
 
woodland_poet said:
In my parish this year…
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Welcome to the postconciliar chaos. Not that Vatican II caused all of this, but it’s a convenient milepost. What you describe is typical of liturgies in wealthy western democracies like the USA and western Europe. If you think it’s bad where you’re at, look up videos from other places in the Catholic world. But the tide is turning.
 
japhy said:
Do we not allow adulterers or murderers to sing either?
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Not in my church, at any rate. In fact, a convicted murderer is permanently barred from the priesthood for life, and adulterers are not allowed to distribute communion. What are the policies in your church?
 
Pre-Vatican II, in my small city parish, an openly gay man was the organist for my parish, and he sang, too. And I know this because he was a family member. It was unusual for anyone to be open about being gay back then but he didn’t hide it, although he didn’t show up at church with any friends and didn’t flaunt it. He was the organist at that church until he died about 10 years ago. That is partly how he made his living, playing the organ around the area. I don’t recall anyone making a fuss about it, but because he was a family member, we may not have heard about it. None of the priests in all those years, pre or post Vatican II, ever tried to replace him. It is not a liturgical abuse.

We had an organ and needed someone to play it, and organists are hard to come by, esp. in small cities. Also, it is not that unusual for non-Catholics to play at Catholic Masses.

My concern would be with changing the words of the Mass, not with who’s playing the organ. There isn’t an organist in the whole world who is not a sinner.
 
To Woodland Poet and Catsrus, have you ever tried a parish that offers both the EF and OF? The parish I attend offers both, and it seems that having the EF there every Sonday and HDO somehow keeps the whole parish in check. The RCIA program there is also one of the most orthodox in the whole city. I don’t know about PA, but doesn’t the New York area have at least two or three parishes that offer both forms of the Mass? I’d give one of these a try, because if it’s anything like the parish I attend, they wouldn’t dare to change anything around that wasn’t permitted in the OF Mass. I’m not saying that you should only attend the EF, but I would think that a parish that offers both forms would tend to be more orthodox, and less likely to have the problems you guies posted about. Just a suggestion…
 
woodland_poet said:
An openly homosexual person is singing the words of the Liturgy in the course of a Catholic Mass. This is not abuse?
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No. What you describe is not a liturgical abuse.
woodland_poet said:
Omitting parts of the Mass itself? This is not abuse?
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The priest has many options available to him regarding the Mass. There are legitimate times when the Penitential Rite might be omitted, for example if certain optional blessings are done. The Creed is usually not omitted, but might be under certain circumstances. I cannot say if such a circumstance existed in the case of that particular Mass.

You should ask your priest for specifics of why he has omitted whatever it is he omitted at the time of that Mass. If he cannot point to a valid option he is following in the Sacramentary or GIRM, then you should take your concerns up the chain of command.

None of these things are reasosn for you to leave the Mass and fail to fulfill your obligation.
 
woodland_poet said:
An openly homosexual person is singing the words of the Liturgy in the course of a Catholic Mass. This is not abuse? Omitting parts of the Mass itself? This is not abuse?
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Omitting parts of the Mass = abuse. Report it and start praying.
 
woodland_poet said:
In my parish this year, I walked out of Christmas mass for the second straight year. ( I didn’t even get seated this year!)
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Are you saying you’ve walked out without attending? I hope you’ve confessed this. If you didn’t get seated, perhaps arriving earlier would be a better solution; or if that’s not possible, attending a different Mass.
As I walked into mass, our nun who is also the head of the Catholic school said to a parishoner who asked for a bulletin that “It’s only Christmas.”
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She was probably referring to the fact that it wasn’t a Sunday Mass, hence not yet time to give out the weekend bulletin.
In addition to that is another more important problem. Standing next to this nun was the homosexual young man who with his partner provides the music for the Liturgy. It’s my understanding that these young men are not even Catholic. They are frequently at the 11 o’clock Sunday Masses. It’s a small community and it’s no secret that these two men are in a same sex relationship. So, for the record, lest we delve into the “Are you really sure they are gay?” or “How do you know that are not simply struggling with same sex attraction?” discussions, assume that you and I, like the rest of my community, are 101% certain that they are a same sex couple living under the same roof doing whatever gay people do.
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I don’t believe there’s a canonical requirement that the music be provided by Catholics.
In addition, the penitential rite was ommitted as well as the Creed. The Creed is often omitted from Sunday mass and at such times that the priest does say the Creed, he changes the words. Examples: For us… and our salvation (“men” omitted) and He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became a man; (“a” inserted). In addition, we sometimes have out of Liturgy blessings for children, mother, father, etc, talks from the Catholic nun about school matters from the pulpit and even had one of the students one week address the parish from the pulpit about the need to support Catholic Schools. It’s all very disconcerting. My mother went to mass yesterday and said that she was never so disgusted with a Mass in all her life. I don’t know what to do. How much abuse is too much abuse? I have written the Bishops office and I’ve essentially been told that my priest would be happy to explain to me why this is all okay and that my concerns and love for the faith are appreciated, etc, etc…
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If these are regular occurences, and the Bishop won’t address them, you need to go over his head.
 
catsrus said:
Thanks Skeptic92 for that advice. I am hoping for some more folks to pick up on this since this is the second parish I have attended that the priest opined in the exact same way during the homily. Being a convert, I questioned whether I’d missed something or am too rigid.
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Im a convert myself, and i read through your post again, as has been said if your bishop refuses to take action, report it to the Conference of Catholic Bishops in your country, and even teh Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Rome/ The Vatican itself), if matters keep being addressed and he refuses to change, as changing the words to “a man” is definitely questionable, as the meaning of Man in the Creed, means he became one of us (Mankind, not male, two completely different words in Latin and Greek), and least he didn’t change it to “a God” i would be telling you go straight to the Vatican if you heard that.
 
Apollos said:
In my experience, people who deliberately change the words to the Mass do it loudly and clearly. I don’t think OP could have mistaken.
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I doubt if he misunderstood. We went to a mass today that handed out pamplets with the Creed written out in this manner.
 
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