Irritated by "sheep stealing"

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bengland said:
I suppose it could be answered in a way by rejecting the bounds imposed and explaining why. Unfortunately I have to leave in a few minutes and cannot do that.

edit: nevermind. the context changed. He provided his own answer. I still don’t have the time to continue.
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I’ve tried to do that and do it simply, but it has been rejected as playing word games.
 
JohnDeereFan:

I know that you are new here, but we’ve all read the Bible. You’re not going to surprise us by quoting verses as though we didn’t know they were in there, or spouting off about how, somehow, Catholicism “tricks us” into ignoring them.

We’ve got 2000 years of consistently teaching the same doctrine, both before the books of the New Testament were written and after we compiled them into the Bible you use, based upon the doctrine we were already teaching. We know what’s in there and what isn’t. Saying things like “but that’s not biblical” is presumptuous and silly.

If you’ve got a specific reason why you think we’re wrong, we can explore that together through scripture, history and reason. But simply making off-the-cuff statements about our theology being un-biblical will get you nowhere here.
 
SonofMonica said:
We know what’s in there and what isn’t. Saying things like “but that’s not biblical” is presumptuous and silly.
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So do we. If something isn’t Biblical, then there’s nothing wrong with saying that it isn’t Biblical.
If you’ve got a specific reason why you think we’re wrong, we can explore that together through scripture, history and reason. But simply making off-the-cuff statements about our theology being un-biblical will get you nowhere here.
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You asked me a question. If you don’t like the answer, then perhaps a different question is in order.

Need I remind you that you’re the one who chose to play semantic word games with me.
 
JohnDeereFan:

I asked you one question, which was whether you could understand that we don’t see ourselves as trying to earn salvation. In so asking, I didn’t ask you to agree with us. You answered the question in the affirmative. You could see why we would think that.

Now you seem to imply that we only think that because we’ve been duped. All I’m saying to you is that we have just as much scripture to back us up (I would argue all of it does) as the scripture you’re using for your worldview. We know exactly where to find it. You can find links on this site explaining water baptism.

Again, if you want to start a thread about water baptism, feel free. I will engage in fruitful, Christian discussion with you. Until then, I’m not sure what you’re on about.
 
SonofMonica said:
Again, if you want to start a thread about water baptism, feel free. I will engage in fruitful, Christian discussion with you. Until then, I’m not sure what you’re on about.
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Then there’s no point in continuing this discussion, is there?
 
SonofMonica said:
It’s impossible to answer a false dichotomy. It’s like if I said to you “Are you a Christian or do you follow Jesus?” You can’t rightly answer either one, because it presents a false choice.
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:extrahappy:

Exactly. A false dichotomy.
 
JohnDeereFan said:
I mean is simply wanting to be present at the Marriage Feast all we have to do?
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How do we get to heaven, JohnDeereFan?

Steve Ray answered this question here:. Excerpt below:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)?

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)?

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness."

:bowdown:
 
PRmerger said:
By baptism (Jn 3:5;
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I don’t know who Steve Ray is, but he needs to do a little Bible study because John 3:5 doesn’t have anything to do with baptism.
Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?
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Baptism is not required for salvation.
 
JohnDeereFan said:
Then why does Catholicism teach that you must expiate your own sins in Purgatory?
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I think you misunderstand the Church’s teaching on Purgatory, JohnDeereFan.

It is by Christ’s blood on the cross that our sins are expiated.
 
PRmerger said:
I think you misunderstand the Church’s teaching on Purgatory, JohnDeereFan.

It is by Christ’s blood on the cross that our sins are expiated.
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If it’s by Christ’s blood on the cross that our sins are expiated, then why does the Catholic church teach that sinners must expiate their own sins in Purgatory?
 
PRmerger said:
How do we get to heaven, JohnDeereFan?

Steve Ray answered this question here:. Excerpt below:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)?

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)?

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness."

:bowdown:
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👍👍👍👍👍👍
 
JohnDeereFan said:
If it’s by Christ’s blood on the cross that our sins are expiated, then why does the Catholic church teach that sinners must expiate their own sins in Purgatory?
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Can you give a reference for this teaching? Where does the Church say we expiate our own sins in Purgatory? I’d like to read it myself, if that’s what the doctrine is.
 
PRmerger said:
Can you give a reference for this teaching? Where does the Church say we expiate our own sins in Purgatory? I’d like to read it myself, if that’s what the doctrine is.
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I’m also interested in hearing about this whole “expiating myself” business. Certainly never been taught any such thing regarding purgatory. Not passing judgment here, just waiting to hear what this refers to. 🍿
 
PRmerger said:
Can you give a reference for this teaching? Where does the Church say we expiate our own sins in Purgatory? I’d like to read it myself, if that’s what the doctrine is.
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See Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 30 and the CCC 1475.
 
JohnDeereFan said:
See Council of Trent, Session 6, Canon 30 and the CCC 1475.
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I didn’t see where it says that Christ is not doing the expiating, but that we are doing it ourselves in Purgatory. Could you show us where it says we do this?
 
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