Irritated by "sheep stealing"

[SonofMonica]

If it’s by Christ’s blood on the cross that our sins are expiated, then why does the Catholic church teach that sinners must expiate their own sins in Purgatory?

I think I now understand what the hang-up is. Different usage of the term expiate. We probably shouldn’t use the term expiate to describe what Christ did on the Cross. In purgatory, amends are made for the temporal punishments of sin. On the cross, the price was paid for the eternal punishment (hell).

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I didn’t see where it says that Christ is not doing the expiating, but that we are doing it ourselves in Purgatory. Could you show us where it says we do this?

CCC1475:

those who are expiating their sins in purgatory

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I think I now understand what the hang-up is. Different usage of the term expiate. We probably shouldn’t use the term expiate to describe what Christ did on the Cross.

Like I said, Catholicism redefines words.

In purgatory, amends are made for the temporal punishments of sin. On the cross, the price was paid for the eternal punishment (hell).

Either Christ’s blood cleanses us of all sin or it doesn’t.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You made an accusation in the question! This is the same type of thing as with the false dichotomy…

Remind me not to hire you for my legal counsel.

 

[PRmerger]

That one particular verse that you’ve taken out of context? Or the entire passage that it comes from?

I just want to know if Peter doesn’t mean that baptism now saves you, what do you think Peter means? Does your pastor teach on this verse in your church? Have you ever had a church service in which this was read? What did your pastor say?

 

[PRmerger]

those who are expiating their sins in purgatory

Does it say that Christ’s blood does not expiate their sins? Are you seeing something there that I don’t see?

Their sins are being expiated by Christ’s blood in purgatory. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelations), thus those of us who are in further need of purgation need purgatory. Through the mercy of God and through the atoning death of Christ.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Does it say that Christ’s blood does not expiate their sins? Are you seeing something there that I don’t see?

Their sins are being expiated by Christ’s blood in purgatory.

Seriously, what part of “those who are expiating their sins in Purgatory” do you not understand

Nothing unclean shall enter heaven

Then I guess it’s a good thing the Bible says that those of us who are born again are already clean.

 

[SonofMonica]

Like I said, Catholicism redefines words.

No, it doesn’t. Sometimes humans like you and I use imprecise words to say what we intend. Most of the time, actually. It’s the only real way to have a conversation.

Either Christ’s blood cleanses us of all sin or it doesn’t.

It does, and praise God! It does not, however, cleanse us of all the effects of sin [without the use of purgatory]. You know full well that effects of sin remain. This is, again, an imprecise analogy. All analogies break down at some point. Still, it may be helpful to the conversation: If you go get drunk tonight, you can be really sorry and repentant tomorrow morning. And you can be assured that Christ paid the price for that sin on the cross. But you are still going to have a heck of a hangover. And that’s just one of the consequences that remains.

Well, that’s what purgatory is about. Not even the effects of sin [upon our soul] [such as regret, strife, agony] can be present within us when we meet our God.

 

[SonofMonica]

Does it say that Christ’s blood does not expiate their sins? Are you seeing something there that I don’t see?

Their sins are being expiated by Christ’s blood in purgatory. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Revelations), thus those of us who are in further need of purgation need purgatory. Through the mercy of God and through the atoning death of Christ.

PRmerger: it’s another classic false dichotomy that you’ve spotted right away. That somehow, either Christ paid the debt for our sin, or there’s purgatory. Another false choice.

 

[PRmerger]

Seriously, what part of “those who are expiating their sins in Purgatory” do you not understand

*Christ *is doing the expiating. You say the Church teaches that we do the expiating. I asked for proof that this is what the Church teaches.

I’m still looking for where it says *we *do the expiating. Certainly, purgatory is where our sins are expiated–by Christ!–if we are in need of purgation.

So please show me where the Church teaches that we expiate, without Christ, our sins.

Then I guess it’s a good thing the Bible says that those of us who are born again are already clean.

A pure soul is what you have right now? No irritation, frustration, anger, lust, impatience is in your heart right this very minute? :bowdown:

And this poses an interesting question…I just finished reading a book by Protestant preacher Max Lucado who claims that the Bible says we’re evil, that we can’t go 1 minute without sinning. How is it that 2 people can read the same bible and come up with 2 totally disparate doctrines, if Sola Scriptura is all you need to come to the truth?

 

[SonofMonica]

A pure soul is what you have right now? No irritation, frustration, anger, lust, impatience is in your heart right this very minute? :bowdown:

Who knew Jesus would come back as a rural protestant?

I kid.

**

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger: it’s another classic false dichotomy that you’ve spotted right away. That somehow, either Christ paid the debt for our sin, or there’s purgatory. Another false choice.

Yes, Catholicism is a religion of both/ands.

 

[SonofMonica]

PRmerger and JohnDeereFan:

I hope you don’t mind the joking. But in all seriousness, a major difference between a protestant view of salvation and a Catholic one is this. Protestants believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that God sees us as holy, even when we actually aren’t. This is “imputed” righteousness. By contrast, Catholics believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that we may actually become holy through our heirship with Christ. Righteousness is not “imputed” but we actually do become Sons of God. Not divine in a God-like sense, but holy without the necessity of putting spiritual blinders on.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It does, and praise God! It does not, however, cleanse us of all the effects of sin [without the use of purgatory]. You know full well that effects of sin remain.

No, I don’t know any such thing. The BIble tells me that we’re cleansed from ALL sin and perfected forever.

If you go get drunk tonight, you can be really sorry and repentant tomorrow morning. And you can be assured that Christ paid the price for that sin on the cross. But you are still going to have a heck of a hangover. And that’s just one of the consequences that remains.

And so once the hangover has passed, what then?

And for the record, that’s a physical consequence, not expiation.

Well, that’s what purgatory is about. Not even the effects of sin [upon our soul] [such as regret, strife, agony] can be present within us when we meet our God.

Yeah, because that’s made so clear in verse…um, what was that verse again?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

PRmerger and JohnDeereFan:

I hope you don’t mind the joking. But in all seriousness, a major difference between a protestant view of salvation and a Catholic one is this. Protestants believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that God sees us as holy, even when we actually aren’t.

Actually, the Bible says that we are made holy.

 

[SonofMonica]

JohnDeereFan:

The Bible is not one book, written in “verses”. It is not a numbered list of proof texts for numbered propositions. It is a collection of various books and letters, some written by Jews (who believed in purgatory) and some written by the apostles (who believed in purgatory). Again, it’s our book. Don’t claim we have to have put something in the book in order to teach it. What if I said that everything you know is limited to what you’ve written on this forum in some 50 posts. You would say that’s ridiculous, because you didn’t intend to put everything you know in an Internet post. We say that same thing about the canon of scripture, which the Catholic Church compiled for its own use.

If you want to know more about purgatory, including verses of scripture, you can read here: catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

 

[JohnDeereFan]

*Christ *is doing the expiating. You say the Church teaches that we do the expiating. I asked for proof that this is what the Church teaches.

I’m still looking for where it says *we *do the expiating. Certainly, purgatory is where our sins are expiated–by Christ!–if we are in need of purgation.

THOSE WHO ARE EXPIATING THEIR SINS IN PURGATORY

So please show me where the Church teaches that we expiate, without Christ, our sins.

I’ve repeated it for you four or five times now. If you still don’t get it, nothing I can do about that.

A pure soul is what you have right now?

I’m justified. I’m sanctified. I’m clean. I’m forgiven. I’m perfected. The Bible says that I’m saved and that when I die, I will immediately be in God’s presence in Heaven, not in the mythical land of Purgatory.

And this poses an interesting question…I just finished reading a book by Protestant preacher Max Lucado who claims that the Bible says we’re evil, that we can’t go 1 minute without sinning. How is it that 2 people can read the same bible and come up with 2 totally disparate doctrines, if Sola Scriptura is all you need to come to the truth?

You say that there are two people coming up with two different doctrines. What is the other doctrine?

Second, if you’re going to lecture me about sola scriptura, you might want to find out what it actually is.

 

[SonofMonica]

Actually, the Bible says that we are made holy.

I’m glad you recognize that. Most protestant denominations do not teach that. Good starting point for conversation. We must actually be free from sin, not just rely on God looking at Christ and on Him pretending we’re free from sin.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger and JohnDeereFan:

I hope you don’t mind the joking.

LOVE the joking.

But in all seriousness, a major difference between a protestant view of salvation and a Catholic one is this. Protestants believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that God sees us as holy, even when we actually aren’t. This is “imputed” righteousness. By contrast, Catholics believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that we may actually become holy through our heirship with Christ. Righteousness is not “imputed” but we actually do become Sons of God. Not divine in a God-like sense, but holy without the necessity of putting spiritual blinders on.

Indeed. So when 2 different Christians read the very same Scriptures and come to 2 very different theologies, then what?? In JohnDeereFan’s system, there’s no recourse, but in Catholicism, we have an authority by which we can appeal.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

JohnDeereFan:

The Bible is not one book, written in “verses”. It is not a numbered list of proof texts for numbered propositions. It is a collection of various books and letters, some written by Jews (who believed in purgatory) and some written by the apostles (who believed in purgatory).

Look, I’m not an idiot. We studied this in seminary and I believe I have a very good grasp on the nature and history of the Bible.

I really don’t care if Jews or Apostles believed in Purgatory or not. They’re welcome to their opinions but their teaching is only authoritative inasmuch as it lines up with the word of God and the word of God is very clear that Christ’s atonement was complete and that there is nothing we can do to expiate our own sins.

Again, it’s our book. Don’t claim we have to have put something in the book in order to teach it. What if I said that everything you know is limited to what you’ve written on this forum in some 50 posts.

Depends. Are you claiming that what I “know” contradicts what I’ve written?

If you want to know more about purgatory, including verses of scripture, you can read here: catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

I don’t really care, to be honest about it. I learned plenty about Purgatory in the Catholic church.