Irritated by "sheep stealing"

[JohnDeereFan]

JohnDeereFan - Scripture does not tell us what qualifies as scripture, or that any particular collection of scripture constitutes the Word of God. The Catholic Church tells us that. Indisputable historical fact.

Actually, scripture does tell us what is scripture.

How typically arrogant that you put your church’s authority over God’s authority to define His own words.

 

[sambos671]

The sin that was forgiven and washed away by Christ?

Actually, this is a lie on your part. I showed it to you several times.

Wrong, as usual.

And scripture tells us that the Bible is infallible because it is the word of God and God had His protective hand on it, not because the church, certainly not because the Catholic church, is infallible.

A lot of ground to cover here with these statements. Johndeerfan, first of all let me assertain a few things about what you believe before I can even begin to start with Catholic Doctrine. Are you an AV 1611 only person? What do you believe about the trinity and why? How do you believe the bible was put together? Do you hold to reformed theological views? Are you a 5 pointer? Or do you come from the perspective of Armenianism? Do you believe inerrent is the same as impeccable? Where do you fall?

 

[sambos671]

Actually, scripture does tell us what is scripture.

How typically arrogant that you put your church’s authority over God’s authority to define His own words.

Pray tell show me specifically?

 

[Monica4316]

to the OP:

this saddens me too

I have several friends and acquaintances who try to convert Catholics to “Christianity”. I put Christianity in quotation marks cause they think Catholicism is not Christianity… and that Catholics don’t “know God”.

 

[Monica4316]

When I was Baptist, I never thought sheep stealing was something we should do, but I was in the minority in our congregation. The people who never went to church were just too hard to get into the pews. If we could get those others, people who didn’t really understand the Bible, meaning everyone who disagreed with us, to visit our church, we could get them on the right path. It struck me as arrogant then and it does now. Our independent church had somehow unlocked the truths that no one else in 2000 years had been able to do.

The Catholic outreach I have seen has been much softer than the aggressive tactics we employed. Even if people went to church every time the doors opened, we were encouraged to visit them, to offer a tract, and to get them into our church.

I live in an area that is overwhelmingly Protestant, so I can look at this in reverse. It would appear to me that we had lost our minds if we stood on corners passing out tracts attacking the Protestants’ faith.

Living a good faith example seems much more in line with Catholic evangelistic efforts here and abroad. The remainder of my extended family is Baptist, so I see those publications. It appears that virtually all their missionary effort is placed into places that are fully Christianized.

great post… and I can really relate to it, from my own experience as a Protestant.

Certain RC’s don’t reagard other Christians as Christians and steal sheep from them too.

What does everyone think these forums are for?

Also, fundamentalism effects all traditions and not just certain protestant ones.

I’ve never met a Catholic who thinks that Protestants are not Christians. We do believe that we have Apostolic teaching… but we admit that non Catholic Christians also know and love God and can be saved. Some Protestants, however, think that Catholics can’t be saved unless they “come out” of the “whore of Babylon” not all Protestants think so, but some do.

Catholics wanting Protestants to come into the Church is NOT, I repeat, NOT the same as what the evangelicals are doing in Catholic South America. What’s the difference, you ask?

The evangelicals are telling these folks that they are part of a dead religion, and going to hell, unless they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. They deny that the Catholic Church and her sacraments are a means of accepting Jesus Christ as savior, and teach that the person must be “saved” apart from the Church. I know this because I also have a friend that went down there on a medical/missionary trip.

By way of contrast: Catholics do not tell protestants they are going to hell unless they join up. They do not deny protestants are “true” Christians, or that they may be saved. It is truly matter of showing that the Catholic Church has the fullness of apostolic teaching and has the sacraments give to us by God, and that your best shot at living the Christian life and attaining eternal life is to adhere to what the apostles have taught us and receive God the way he presents himself to the Catholic Church.

Protestants are just as baptized and love the Lord just as much. We don’t question that. The reverse is not held by these evangelicals. They start with the assumption that Catholics are not saved and cannot be saved and will not be saved by adhering to what the Catholic Church teaches.

So, it is not a matter of the evangelicals simply “getting them to switch” as though the choice were between Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi. On the contrary, they are treating these souls as if they are not Christian. The Christians in South America (in their view) are saved, not because of, but in spite of the Catholic Church. That’s why they’re there.

yes

Yes I agree with that, many of these groups offer food. medical help etc. and then expect the people to join their church. I have read on forums where protestants say terrible things about Mother Theresa, that she wasn’t a Christian because she didn’t cram her religion down the throats of those she helped. No of course not Mother Theresa lived the life of a true Christian and by her holiness I am sure many hearts were reached.

Bernadette

I agree… if Mother Teresa wasn’t a Christian, I wonder who is! I think it was St Therese who said that we can change hearts more by prayer and sacrifice than our words… “preach always when necessary use words”…that’s so true!

 

[Monica4316]

I really couldn’t care less about your church or my church. Jesus said he’d build his church and not anybody elses and I’m not talking about ecumenicalism either. Either the rest of us are part of Christs church or we’re not saved.

As for Apostolic Succesion. I don’t believe it exists.
.

Christ said He would built one Church. (on Peter)

the Catholic Church teaches that it’s the one Church, and that other Christians are imperfectly joined to it. Imperfectly, cause they don’t share the Sacraments. But they still have links to the Church through their faith/baptism and that’s why they can be saved. But that doesn’t mean that everyone is in the Church fully, in the same way… cause a part of it is having the Eucharist and the Pope.

 

[Monica4316]

So you beliewve it’s better to be a lapse catholic not serving Christ then to be involved in a Protestant church?

That’s disgusting!

what’s wrong with bringing lapsed Catholics closer to the Catholic Church?

They were looking for somthing.

Why couldn’t they find it in Roman Cathlicism?

let’s see…maybe cause they weren’t properly catechized… this DOESN’T mean that Catholicism is lacking in any way.

In evangelical parlance, the phrase “Catholics/Lutherans/Anglicans/Methodists/Baptists who are not Christians” (and yes, evangelicals think that members of all of these traditions may or may not be Christians) means “members of a formal Christian body who have not entered into a personal relationship with Christ through faith in Christ’s saving work.” Your friend is most likely not being coy or cheeky–he is honestly expressing his belief (which Catholics share, just in different terminology) that membership in any Christian church does not guarantee salvation.

I’ve heard this terminology too when I was a Protestant…
what I’ve never understood though, is how someone can tell if another person has a “personal relationship with Christ”, or not. This is something between the person and God… we can’t just “know” this about others… unless by revelation or something lol
also, what bothers me is that some, or many, Protestants tend to think that most Catholics don’t have this “relationship”. I don’t understand this and it seems very judgemental to me
sure there are Catholics who have fallen away or arent really practicing or not well catechized…but it’s the business of the Catholic Church to look after them, and there ARE Catholics who do this… there are Catholic missionaries… I have a friend who’s on a Catholic mission trip right now, and is sharing the faith with other Catholics…but to bring them closer to the Church, not away from it.

I think one big difference is how Protestants and Catholics view having this “relationship with Christ”. For many evangelical Protestants, it’s based on having said the “sinners prayer” or some variation of it. “Have you accepted Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior”. that refers to the prayer.

For Catholics, we see it more in terms of having a living, everyday sort of faith in Christ. Even if we can’t remember how it started… that doesn’t matter. We are to choose Christ every day…not just once.

Some Protestants who evangelize Catholics think that the Catholics don’t have a “relationship with Christ” cause they never said that specific prayer. So they don’t think that Catholics are Christians.

Other (a minority of) Protestants don’t think that Catholics are Christians cause they claim we worship idols, the Pope is the “antichrist”, etc.

eg. When people trust in a denomination or a tradition or a dogma instead of Christ anyone who does not a member of the denomination or does not adhere to the tradition or dogma makes them feel unsafe. This leads to trusting in the tradition or dogma even more to the point where those who disagree must be avoided or confronted.

While in Christ we have total security.

I trust in the (Catholic) Church that Christ started, because He started it, and it’s not “man made”.

 

[Monica4316]

I have noticed that one thought or group this posting has failed to mention in “Sheep stealing” are the famous college campus groups : Campus Crusade for Christ and Inter Varsity Christian fellowship My experiences with those I guess was a typical Scene: Your sitting alone waiting for a class to start and suddenly some very hyper guy or girl or guy and girl come up to you and immediately slam THEIR religion in your face, well you freak out and sit back and say Wait a minuet …I go to ________Church with my family and have done so since I was 2 years old. But Dude theys say …Your Not saved… You need to have JEEZUS come into your life and go to OUR CHURCH GROUP . Dude you Reply I just told you my family and I go to ____Church. Immediately they replay their programmed conversion speach to you and bring out the tracts and try to convert you . I told the one who confronted me that my family was Anglican/Lutheran and We have very different processes converting others to the faith and that he was waisting his time trying to convert me and I was a Bible believing confirmed Anglican/Lutheran . He then asked me what confirmation was, I briefly told him it was the public confession of faith made in the church in font of GOD the congregation , your family and the pastor after a 3 month class in christian doctrine history and teachings. I had the feeling this not only straightend him out but probably blew him away with new understanding of churches

lol I know what you mean… I used to be involved in Campus Crusade for Christ

Then why does Catholicism teach that you must expiate your own sins in Purgatory?

the Church doesn’t teach that.

the Church teaches that purgatory is ONLY for those who are **already **saved. All in purgatory are destined for Heaven. Here’s an article about what purgatory actually does:
davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm

I think that you don’t have a proper understanding of the Catholic teaching on purgatory… and I find it sad that you are trying to tell Catholics what WE believe about it.

If one is born again at baptism, then how do you explain all of the people who have been baptised who do not produce fruit consistent with being born again?

cause salvation is not a “one step” thing. It’s a process. Being ‘born again’ is not a guarantee for salvation. It’s rather a way of getting rid of original sin (and any personal sin up to that point), and it gives the person graces to perhaps later come to faith. But they’re still free to accept or reject these graces.

we don’t believe in OSAS… even a person who HAS faith is able to fall away…

No, if you’re participating in salvific rituals, then you are, by definition, working for your own salvation.

no… cause it’s Christ who works in these “rituals”. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us “born again” through water baptism. It is Christ Himself that we receive in Communion.

PRmerger and JohnDeereFan:

I hope you don’t mind the joking. But in all seriousness, a major difference between a protestant view of salvation and a Catholic one is this. Protestants believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that God sees us as holy, even when we actually aren’t. This is “imputed” righteousness. By contrast, Catholics believe that Christ’s one, complete sacrifice on the cross makes it so that we may actually become holy through our heirship with Christ. Righteousness is not “imputed” but we actually do become Sons of God. Not divine in a God-like sense, but holy without the necessity of putting spiritual blinders on.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

the Church doesn’t teach that.

Actually, I just quoted the CCC saying that it does.

I think that you don’t have a proper understanding of the Catholic teaching on purgatory… and I find it sad that you are trying to tell Catholics what WE believe about it.

I always find it amusing when Catholics insist that anybody who leaves the Catholic church doesn’t know what Catholicism teaches, but Catholics are experts on Protestant beliefs.

cause salvation is not a “one step” thing. It’s a process. Being ‘born again’ is not a guarantee for salvation.

Actually, they’re the same thing.

we don’t believe in OSAS… even a person who HAS faith is able to fall away…

If God has predestined us to be like Christ, how can what He has predestined be overturned?

no… cause it’s Christ who works in these “rituals”. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us “born again” through water baptism.

If this is true, then why do so many people who have been baptised not show fruits consistent with being born again?

 

[sambos671]

If this is true, then why do so many people who have been baptised not show fruits consistent with being born again?

This is a good point. However, you still haven’t answered my questions.

 

[SonofMonica]

Actually, they’re the same thing.

No, being born again and salvation are not the same thing. One is a prerequisite to the other. Jesus said “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” [John 3:3] If they were the same thing, it would be a tautlogy. That is, Jesus would be saying “Unless you enter the kingdom of heaven, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Being born again is baptism: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:3–4). “In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in **baptism **and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ”. (Colossians 2:11–13).

And baptism is a prerequisite to [not the end-all, but the beginning of] salvation, such that our salvation comes thru baptism: “God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:20–21).

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No, being born again and salvation are not the same thing.

We belong to two different religions. It’s only natural that you would believe something different.

Being born again is baptism

Like I said, we belong to two different religions so it’s only natural that you would believe something different than we do.
Sambo:

This is a good point. However, you still haven’t answered my questions.

Nor do I plan to. I’ve only been here a short time and already, the name calling and personal attacks are not exactly encouraging me to want to socialize.

 

[tomarin]

We belong to two different religions. It’s only natural that you would believe something different.

You’re outside the Church but not outside Christianity. You may not have the sacraments but you still have the Bible.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You’re outside the Church but not outside Christianity.

I’m outside your church, but I am a part of the Christ’s church.

You may not have the sacraments but you still have the Bible.

No, we do not have sacraments.

sonofmonica:

If you’re not here to actually find out information, or engage in any meaningful conversation, then why are you here? To condemn us to hell?

Have I said anything about you going to Hell? Excuse me, but your church is the one who has declared me anathema.

(Edited) I haven’t heard you provide any sort of scriptural witness at all to what you actually believe.

Yes, I’ve provided scripture. Yes, I’ve provided examples from Catholic sources. You just ignore it.

If this is any indication of you intend to behave here, you are welcome to be on your way.

And if many more of the Catholics here are like you and rinney, I may take you up on that.

(Edited)

Monica:

are you so sure that you know the Catholic teaching better than all the Catholics here?

Honestly? When the Catholics here insist that Purgatory is not for the expiation of sin and I’m easily able to show from two seperate Catholic sources that it is, then yes, it does appear that I know Catholic teaching better than the Catholics here.

what the CCC says refers to temporal punishment, and that’s not the guilt of sin or eternal punishment (hell), this is just the effects of sin in our souls.

That’s not what the statement I quoted says.

Purgatory removes this - by Christ’s merits. So that after purgatory, we can be perfect before God.

So then, we’re not perfect now?

Remember the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism, is that we don’t believe in “imputed righteousness”, we believe that by Christ’s merits, and by grace, His righteousness actually becomes our own

I hate to break this to you, but that’s imputed righteousness.

Purgatory is the end process of this transformation, and it’s ONLY for the saved, only for those whose mortal sins are already forgiven.

So then, their sin is forgiven and cleansed, but they still have to suffer for it?

God has predestined us in that He’s outside of time so He ‘sees’ who will be saved and who wouldn’t. But we still have free will, and Christ died for all…

So if God sees who will be saved, then how can they not be saved?

 

[SonofMonica]

JohnDeereFan,

If you’re not here to actually find out information, or engage in any meaningful conversation, then why are you here? To condemn us to hell? All you’ve done is make short, snide remarks, and I haven’t heard you provide any sort of scriptural witness at all to what you actually believe. If this is any indication of you intend to behave here, you are welcome to be on your way. If you do want to behave like a Christian and engage in meaningful dialogue, you’re more than welcome to stay as long as you’d like. Just saying, no one is making you stay here and be subjected to all this scripture talk and no forum likes trolls.

 

[Monica4316]

Actually, I just quoted the CCC saying that it does.

are you so sure that you know the Catholic teaching better than all the Catholics here?

what the CCC says refers to temporal punishment, and that’s not the guilt of sin or eternal punishment (hell). Purgatory removes the effects of sin on our souls - by Christ’s merits. So that after purgatory, we can be perfect before God.

Remember the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism, is that we don’t believe in “imputed righteousness”, we believe that by Christ’s merits, and by grace, His righteousness actually becomes our own, we share in it, - in other words, we are transformed. Purgatory is the end process of this transformation, and it’s ONLY for the saved, only for those whose mortal sins are already forgiven.

I always find it amusing when Catholics insist that anybody who leaves the Catholic church doesn’t know what Catholicism teaches, but Catholics are experts on Protestant beliefs.

I didn’t hear anyone say that they’re an expert on Protestant beliefs…

Actually, they’re the same thing.

oki but we don’t believe that

If God has predestined us to be like Christ, how can what He has predestined be overturned?

God has predestined us in that He’s outside of time so He ‘sees’ who will be saved and who wouldn’t. But we still have free will, and Christ died for all…

If this is true, then why do so many people who have been baptised not show fruits consistent with being born again?

because as I said, that’s not all there is to it…

look at it this way.

a baby is baptized…is “born again”. this baby doesn’t have original sin.

However, let’s say this baby grows up and starts sinning. (Christians still sin…)

well in that case, the soul is no longer pure like it was after baptism. In that case, the person has to go to Confession to be back in a state of grace.

If they live in a state of grace, they’ll learn to follow Christ in the right way and bear fruit. If they’ll be lost in sin, they won’t bear fruit.

A person can be born again and still not be saved, at the end of their life…

we don’t see being “Born again” as a “decision making” for Christ… it’s a spiritual change that happens in the soul, by God’s grace. It’s entirely God’s work and so the person being baptized can be a little baby who doesn’t understand what is happening it’s still effective.

God bless

 

[SonofMonica]

Have I said anything about you going to Hell? Excuse me, but your church is the one who has declared me anathema.

No, it hasn’t. First, to declare someone anathema, they must first be Catholic. To anathemize a Catholic is to excommunicate them from the Catholic Church for false teaching. This excommunication can be lifted if the person stops the false teaching and repents and comes back to the Church. To declare someone anathema does not mean to condemn someone to hell. The Catholic Church does not condemn ANYONE to hell, including protestants.

(Edited) I care about God. We’re here to talk about him. If you want to engage in serious discussion, we’d love to do that with you.

 

[SonofMonica]

I didn’t hear anyone say that they’re an expert on Protestant beliefs…

I don’t know that anyone here is an expert on anything. But I can attest to having once been a Baptist, a Methodist, and an Episcopalian. I can bring first-hand knowledge of their teaching to the table, but I will always give way to official teaching from the respective churches, to the extent that there is any. Methodists have a Book of Discipline, for example. Some baptists have “statements of faith” which are similar to the Creeds. The Episcopal Book of Common Prayer contains a catechism.

 

[Monica4316]

Excuse me, but your church is the one who has declared me anathema.

that’s not what anathema is. You can’t be “anathema” just by being a non Catholic.

furthermore, the Church does not ever say who is going to heaven or hell. The ONLY times it makes this judgement is when a Saint is canonized, in which case they know that the person is in Heaven because there are miracles of intercession.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

that’s not what anathema is. You can’t be “anathema” just by being a non Catholic.

But evidently, you can be anathema for believing what we believe.