Is a ban on children discrimination? Liberal hypocricy?

[MarkInOregon]

A blanket ban would indicate that all restuarants or all hotels or whatever were banning all children. I am talking about some hotels and some restuarants doing this not all or even the majority! In the particular case of the OP apparently the man was getting lots of complaints from his customers about unruly children. So he did what he thought best for his business.

But seriously folks lets not get all worked up about this none of us are saying we want a ban on all children everywhere, just saying it might be nice to go out somewhere nice and not having to worry about naughty children ruining things. And yes I realize adults can ruin things too but lets face it unless hotels and restuarants didn;t allow anyone in their busineses well there would be no business for them! Banning children or at least children under a certain age is a more reasonable way to do things.

What age? In your earlier response you mentioned unruly teens. Most of these children bans are 6 years and under. In my experience teens & college students are more likely to be unruly. I know when I was in college–we could be a bit loud. I worked at one of the nicer hotels near where I live for a while (granted it was a number of years ago when I was in school) but at the time I worked there children were never a problem. The problems mostly came from adults who attended various events/receptions on the weekends at the hotel. I just don’t see all these unruly kids running around restaurants. Most of the ones I see sit and color or play some kind of hand held game.
Honestly I think the reasonable way to do things is to ask unruly people to leave–whether adults, adults with kids, teens etc. Sure they might make a scene on the way out–but they won’t behave that way again in your restaurant or let their children behave that way and the word will get out that if you are unruly you’ll be asked to leave. Heck post a sign–unruly guests will be charged for their food and asked to leave with a take out box.
What cracks me up is the unwillingness to put up with unruly kids while turning a blind eye to all the unruly adults. I think increasingly our society doesn’t like kids and doesn’t want to be around kids–whether well behaved or unruly. This discussion has for the most part just assumed that the vast majority of kids misbehave and should be banned. I for one, based on my experience, do not think the vast majority of children misbehave at restaurants–and that makes the bans unfair–and I think indicates an ulterior motive.
Oh well the anti-child crowd will never be satisfied until all children are banned from public until they are fully grown.
I keep reading “it would be nice to go out somewhere nice and not having to worry about naughty children ruining things” I don’t think I have ever once gone out somewhere nice even thinking that the evening could be ruined by an unruly kid or adult–and I know I have never gone out somewhere nice and had the evening ruined by and unruly child. And until this past year we ate out a lot. Maybe that’s why I think this problem is overstated and that there is an ulterior motive.

Peace,
Mark

Peace,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Perhaps to create an atmosphere that is more adult friendly? The kind of hotel where one can truly get away from the kids and relax or if one is on a business traveling relax without worry about kids making a perhaps already stressful trip even more stressful. Of course like I said before this wonlt eliminate all problems. But rules could certainly be set in place that woudl help decrease the problems potentially caused by adults. Really the attraction wouldn;t just be getting away from ill behaved children but perhaps children in general. To not have to worry that the children might hear or see something they shouldn;t and so on.

Here it is–the real goal: getting away from “children in general” See that unruly kid thing is just a guise. Lets just ban them from all public spaces to make it easy.

Note: If my children shouldn’t see something you are doing – I don’t think I should see it (or would want to see it) either.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Mumbles140]

I personally detest when people who are pro-abortion say that Catholics and other pro-lifers only care about the unborn child, but then don’t do anything to help the children. I know this isn’t true because I know there are plenty of Catholic charities that support families and provide other services. And I don’t want to direct this line towards anyone here, but let’s really think about that statement. We pray and protest so hard to protect the rights of every human, but are so quick to separate ourselves from them. Doesn’t God tell us to come to Him with hearts like children’s?

Honestly, when I see a little kid making a scene, throwing a tantrum, etc, I chuckle, hope the parents aren’t too stressed, and then push it out of my mind. Wherever you go out, there is a chance of unruly children, loud teens, and drunk adults. We all must live in this world together, both good and bad, loud and quiet, sober and drunk.

Lastly, pretty much everyone on here remembers the time when kids were perfectly behaved, were seen and not heard, and never spoke unless spoken to. However, I find that a little hard to believe. I’m sure every single person on this thread, regardless of how strict their parents were, has acted out. Whether you were disciplined or not, it doesn’t matter, we all have had tantrums (probably numerous times we don’t even recall in our younger days). It happens, you did it, I did it, kids will do it for the rest of time. Let’s accept this and cherish these little moments of rebellion from kids rather than become so hardened against them.

 

[Calliso]

Here it is–the real goal: getting away from “children in general” See that unruly kid thing is just a guise. Lets just ban them from all public spaces to make it easy.

Note: If my children shouldn’t see something you are doing – I don’t think I should see it (or would want to see it) either.

Peace,
Mark

Ok once again more over reacting I could understand this if I or anyone else in this thread was calling for a ban on all children everywhere. But not a single person has asked for that! All we have asked for is perhaps a few places that are adult only that aren;t bars and strip clubs and the like!

 

[Calliso]

What age? In your earlier response you mentioned unruly teens. Most of these children bans are 6 years and under. In my experience teens & college students are more likely to be unruly. I know when I was in college–we could be a bit loud. I worked at one of the nicer hotels near where I live for a while (granted it was a number of years ago when I was in school) but at the time I worked there children were never a problem. The problems mostly came from adults who attended various events/receptions on the weekends at the hotel. I just don’t see all these unruly kids running around restaurants. Most of the ones I see sit and color or play some kind of hand held game.
Honestly I think the reasonable way to do things is to ask unruly people to leave–whether adults, adults with kids, teens etc. Sure they might make a scene on the way out–but they won’t behave that way again in your restaurant or let their children behave that way and the word will get out that if you are unruly you’ll be asked to leave. Heck post a sign–unruly guests will be charged for their food and asked to leave with a take out box.
What cracks me up is the unwillingness to put up with unruly kids while turning a blind eye to all the unruly adults. I think increasingly our society doesn’t like kids and doesn’t want to be around kids–whether well behaved or unruly. This discussion has for the most part just assumed that the vast majority of kids misbehave and should be banned. I for one, based on my experience, do not think the vast majority of children misbehave at restaurants–and that makes the bans unfair–and I think indicates an ulterior motive.
Oh well the anti-child crowd will never be satisfied until all children are banned from public until they are fully grown.
I keep reading “it would be nice to go out somewhere nice and not having to worry about naughty children ruining things” I don’t think I have ever once gone out somewhere nice even thinking that the evening could be ruined by an unruly kid or adult–and I know I have never gone out somewhere nice and had the evening ruined by and unruly child. And until this past year we ate out a lot. Maybe that’s why I think this problem is overstated and that there is an ulterior motive.

Peace,
Mark

Peace,
Mark

Well I think it is true that everyone has different experiences I have been lucky so far and haven;t experienced many unruly kids. Though I have heard stories that made me shudder and today at the petstore I had to bite my tongue from saying something to these little kids who were being too noisy in the cat adoption room, fortunately the parents pulled them away quickly had they kept on shaking the cage bars I might have not been able to hold my tongue and I am extremely unconfrontational!

The problem is with unruly customers is the damage can be wide spread. It is not just the bad customer you lose you also may lose several good customers who decide that there time and money isn;t worth that. Like I said before I realize problems can come from both children and adults but you can;t ban everyone! You have to think about what is best for your business and for some places perhaps banning young children particually if the place isn;t supposed to be a kid friendly place in the first place. Now I personally think that if you are going to ban children 6 is probably too young and I donlt see much of a difference between a kid 6 and a kid thats 7. But the restarant owner might have mainly gotten complaints about kids under 6 or perhaps he is simply deciding to start out small so to speak and figures a blanket ban on all kids would be too hasty and perhaps bad for business.

Anyway read this thread you might have never really experienced bad children out in public but some people have. Maybe you are lucky and live in an area that parents actually displine and train their kids to act properly in public or are just lucky I donlt know. I admit like I said before I do have been lucky in that regard though I donlt go out a ton but still often enough.

But once again no one is calling for a ban of all children everywhere so lets stop claiming that ok>?

 

[Calliso]

By the time the situation escalates to the point of having to ask a family with an unruly child or children to leave, food may have been ordered, the wait staff has taken time, and other customers have already been disturbed. The restaurant has suffered losses because of this, and it really isn’t fair to make them have to go through it when they are or should be perfectly free to set up their own business model. If that business model means child-free, the market will decide if that is a good business model. If they thrive, then other child-free businesses may also come into the market. There are plenty of restaurants that welcome children, so there is no discrimination taking place. If this were the ONLY restaurant in the known universe, then maybe you would have a case. Otherwise, hush up and go away.

 

[Allegra]

Ok once again more over reacting I could understand this if I or anyone else in this thread was calling for a ban on all children everywhere. But not a single person has asked for that! All we have asked for is perhaps a few places that are adult only that aren;t bars and strip clubs and the like!

No, no one is calling for a ban on children in public. I just think a business should have a right to cater to who ever they want to. Loads of restaurants do nothing but families with kids. These are the places people should take their kids. Why do people even want to drag their kids into places that aren’t designed for them? I was invited out to eat with friends at a local place that turned out to to be a local version of Hooters. I hadn’t ever been there before and apparantly neither had the ladies at the next table, who were throwing a straight up fit because the place didn’t have booster seats for their kids! The kids actually did pretty well considering the fact that the place was so loud and crowded, the kids didn’t fit at the table well, and the only thing they ate was french fries because the burgers the place sold were too big for the kids to even pick up and neither mom seemed to know that they could be cut. Anyway, it didn’t take long for the kids to get pouty and fussy while their moms pretty much ignored them while they chatted. What I don’t get is why they hauled their kids there in the first place. It obviously isn’t a kid-friendly place.

 

[sharptiger999]

pnewton:
Ron Paul & Rand Paul believe in private property rights. They should not be forced to partake in things they do not wish to on their property.

 

[Mumbles140]

Ok once again more over reacting I could understand this if I or anyone else in this thread was calling for a ban on all children everywhere. But not a single person has asked for that! All we have asked for is perhaps a few places that are adult only that aren;t bars and strip clubs and the like!

You are right, no one has called for a blanket ban, but you yourself talked about a desire to be away from ‘children in general’ at times, and other people’s tones seem to express the same desire. It isn’t just about ‘bratty’ children; it’s about not being around any children. And some of these people are parents who are looking for a night out without their kids, which is understandable that you want that alone time. But other families have the right to go out with their kids. Do your rights override theirs because you are trying to have a special evening?

Look, these people have been talking about the rights of business owners to cater who they want to and how private property laws should protect these people. Well let’s do that scenario. We’ll resort to having white restaurants and black restaurants, Catholic delis and Jewish delis, and the like. Whether kids are protected by US age discrimination laws or not doesn’t mean it’s not discrimination. If a restaurant is willing to serve one person, it should serve everyone. If they don’t want it to be that way, make it a social club where you must be a member or guest to dine there. But if you are opening up to the public, then you must be open to everyone.

 

[pnewton]

Ron Paul & Rand Paul believe in private property rights. They should not be forced to partake in things they do not wish to on their property.

I know, and at least they are consistent in that. My problem has always been that it is hypocritical to allow a ban based on age but not on sexual orientation. Neither is a constitutional right and both have some local legislation protecting them in different parts. The difference, as I see, is that one ban promotes family values and the other ban is opposed to them.

 

[Calliso]

You are right, no one has called for a blanket ban, but you yourself talked about a desire to be away from ‘children in general’ at times, and other people’s tones seem to express the same desire. It isn’t just about ‘bratty’ children; it’s about not being around any children. And some of these people are parents who are looking for a night out without their kids, which is understandable that you want that alone time. But other families have the right to go out with their kids. Do your rights override theirs because you are trying to have a special evening?
Look, these people have been talking about the rights of business owners to cater who they want to and how private property laws should protect these people. Well let’s do that scenario. We’ll resort to having white restaurants and black restaurants, Catholic delis and Jewish delis, and the like. Whether kids are protected by US age discrimination laws or not doesn’t mean it’s not discrimination. If a restaurant is willing to serve one person, it should serve everyone. If they don’t want it to be that way, make it a social club where you must be a member or guest to dine there. But if you are opening up to the public, then you must be open to everyone.

No my rights don;t override theirs however explain to me how having a handful of restuarants that are adult only and once again aren;t just strip clubs and hooters and what not is taking away their right to have a night out with their family? I mean its not like there isn;t a gizillion and one places that those families could go instead. You making it sound like these handful of restaurants are the only place these families could ever go. There are plenty of choices for families what choice do we adults that want to have an adult childfree evening out have? Sure we could go to a bar or strip club but what if we want an adult enviroment with out all that? And sure you could go to a real expensive nice fancysmancy place but oh wait if that place doesn;t ban kids or at least kids under a certain age then well guess what you might just end up spending lots of money and have you evening ruined anyway.

I would say that restaurants within reason should be able to determine who eats at their restaurant. I would think that bannning black people or jewish people and so on would not be reasonable. However banniing kids or kids under a certain age if you have gotten complaints which is a big reason apparently why the restaurant that started this argument in the first place is banning kids under 6 Or because your restaurant would really not be a family friendly place is quite another.

But once again lets stop over reacting people with families still have more then enough places to go.

 

[Calliso]

I know, and at least they are consistent in that. My problem has always been that it is hypocritical to allow a ban based on age but not on sexual orientation. Neither is a constitutional right and both have some local legislation protecting them in different parts. The difference, as I see, is that one ban promotes family values and the other ban is opposed to them.

How is a ban on children in restaurants that aren;t family friendly places meant for kids in the first place opposed to family values?

 

[pnewton]

How is a ban on children in restaurants that aren;t family friendly places meant for kids in the first place opposed to family values?

Children are part of a family.

 

[Calliso]

No, no one is calling for a ban on children in public. I just think a business should have a right to cater to who ever they want to. Loads of restaurants do nothing but families with kids. These are the places people should take their kids. Why do people even want to drag their kids into places that aren’t designed for them? I was invited out to eat with friends at a local place that turned out to to be a local version of Hooters. I hadn’t ever been there before and apparantly neither had the ladies at the next table, who were throwing a straight up fit because the place didn’t have booster seats for their kids! The kids actually did pretty well considering the fact that the place was so loud and crowded, the kids didn’t fit at the table well, and the only thing they ate was french fries because the burgers the place sold were too big for the kids to even pick up and neither mom seemed to know that they could be cut. Anyway, it didn’t take long for the kids to get pouty and fussy while their moms pretty much ignored them while they chatted. What I don’t get is why they hauled their kids there in the first place. It obviously isn’t a kid-friendly place.

Exactly but for some reason some people seem to think that kids shoudl be allowed just about anywhere and for some reason seem to think its a horrible thing if these places which aren;t kid friendly at all donlt allow kids! Which when you think about it isn;t logical at all. But a couple people in this thread have made it sound like if those type of places ban kids that families will have no where else to go! Which is just silly and I can;t figure out the logic behind that thinking!

 

[Calliso]

Children are part of a family.

That is true but once again we are talking about the sort of places that it would not be smart to take your kids in the first place. The kind of place for single adults to go out or for mom and dad to go out alone without the kids.

 

[Mumbles140]

Exactly but for some reason some people seem to think that kids shoudl be allowed just about anywhere and for some reason seem to think its a horrible thing if these places which aren;t kid friendly at all donlt allow kids! Which when you think about it isn;t logical at all. But a couple people in this thread have made it sound like if those type of places ban kids that families will have no where else to go! Which is just silly and I can;t figure out the logic behind that thinking!

Yah, it’s a crazy notion that a living, breathing, human being should be allowed somewhere open to all people. That is ridiculous, right?

You talk about these places not being kid friendly - does that mean they don’t have a ball pit, or that they allow tobacco products and are filled with drunkards, nudity, or some other obscenity (i.e. comedy club)? And how do you determine a place to not be ‘kid friendly’? Because you think of it as a place you’d like to be where kids aren’t around? Or do you just believe that kids should be banished to Chuck E. Cheese until they are instantly mature adults capable of eating out at restaurants with white tablecoths?

It isn’t about having no where else to go. But say a couple goes to a steakhouse once a month and it is the best steak they’ve ever had. It becomes a tradition. Well, at some point, they have a child and want to continue the tradition, but the restaurant bans their child? Do they give up this tradition at a restaurant they have patronized for years simply because they are with child? We’ve already read about a woman and her husband getting all dressed up to go to Red Lobster, and now it is too rowdy for them to go there. She admitted there were other places to go, but they liked Red Lobster. Now they won’t even get dressed up to go out there.

A lot of people on here are taking the idea that it’s not a big deal, but it sets a pretty major precedent. Caliso even talks about a place for single adults or for couples to be out without kids. Seriously, what are you expecting to go on here that kids can’t see but you expect other adults to be okay with?

The solution is easy. Restaurants step up enforcement on unruly people: drunk, teenaged, or whiny children. Have a sign informing people they will be asked once to keep it quiet, and if it continues, they will be asked to leave - pay for your food, here’s a doggy back, please come back when the noise won’t be an issue. If people are kicked out a couple of times, ban them for some period of time. You might make a scene, but if the noise was really bothering patrons, I feel like they would (or most certainly I would) respect the owner for sticking to his guns.

 

[Mumbles140]

No my rights don;t override theirs however explain to me how having a handful of restuarants that are adult only and once again aren;t just strip clubs and hooters and what not is taking away their right to have a night out with their family? I mean its not like there isn;t a gizillion and one places that those families could go instead. You making it sound like these handful of restaurants are the only place these families could ever go. There are plenty of choices for families what choice do we adults that want to have an adult childfree evening out have? Sure we could go to a bar or strip club but what if we want an adult enviroment with out all that? And sure you could go to a real expensive nice fancysmancy place but oh wait if that place doesn;t ban kids or at least kids under a certain age then well guess what you might just end up spending lots of money and have you evening ruined anyway.

I would say that restaurants within reason should be able to determine who eats at their restaurant. I would think that bannning black people or jewish people and so on would not be reasonable. However banniing kids or kids under a certain age if you have gotten complaints which is a big reason apparently why the restaurant that started this argument in the first place is banning kids under 6 Or because your restaurant would really not be a family friendly place is quite another.

But once again lets stop over reacting people with families still have more then enough places to go.

Well the blacks and Jews could have other restaurants to go to, right? There would be a gazillion other places for them. Again, you are making some pretty out-there assumptions. First, every child out to dinner will not ruin your evening. And if you hear a baby cry and it takes 5 minutes for the mother to get it back to sleep, does that ruin your evening? If so, you should pray for patience. Secondly, you assume there are places that are ‘adult environments’ that aren’t bars, strip clubs, or Hooters. Well if these are wholesome establishments that aren’t trashy, what’s the problem if there are well-behaved kids there who you aren’t hearing or seeing them run around? Is it so you can have inappropriate conversations? Because other adults might be offended by those. Is it so you can use foul language? Other adults might be offended by that. I just don’t get what you are looking for.

Third, and most important, you again rally behind this idea of ‘complaints’ and it is because of ‘complaints’ that restaurants should ban children. But you have stated on several occasions that you just want a kid-free place. So not about a place where kids aren’t acting up, just an ‘adult environment’, which means you don’t care if it is the von Trapp family you are sitting nearby - no kids is no kids for you.

Using your logic, if people complained against people being drunk at a restaurant, the reasonable step would be to ban alcohol (as well as people who show up drunk). It is within the right of the restaurant, and people have other places to get booze, but some adults enjoy a glass of wine or cocktail while having a nice dinner. Should they be punished because a handful of people who can’t drink responsibly?

 

[JulianNorwich]

Rather than banning children completely, the restaurant might have considered rules like:
1.Children must remain quietly in their seats unless being escorted to the restroom by an adult.
2.Children who misbehave will be asked to leave.
3. No strollers, highchairs, infant seats allowed.,

Children old enough and well-behaved enough to enjoy dinner in a nice restaurant would thereby be welcome. and parents might get a clue about the expectations for behavior in a place mostly geared for adults.

 

[Calliso]

Yah, it’s a crazy notion that a living, breathing, human being should be allowed somewhere open to all people. That is ridiculous, right?

You talk about these places not being kid friendly - does that mean they don’t have a ball pit, or that they allow tobacco products and are filled with drunkards, nudity, or some other obscenity (i.e. comedy club)? And how do you determine a place to not be ‘kid friendly’? Because you think of it as a place you’d like to be where kids aren’t around? Or do you just believe that kids should be banished to Chuck E. Cheese until they are instantly mature adults capable of eating out at restaurants with white tablecoths?

It isn’t about having no where else to go. But say a couple goes to a steakhouse once a month and it is the best steak they’ve ever had. It becomes a tradition. Well, at some point, they have a child and want to continue the tradition, but the restaurant bans their child? Do they give up this tradition at a restaurant they have patronized for years simply because they are with child? We’ve already read about a woman and her husband getting all dressed up to go to Red Lobster, and now it is too rowdy for them to go there. She admitted there were other places to go, but they liked Red Lobster. Now they won’t even get dressed up to go out there.

A lot of people on here are taking the idea that it’s not a big deal, but it sets a pretty major precedent. Caliso even talks about a place for single adults or for couples to be out without kids. Seriously, what are you expecting to go on here that kids can’t see but you expect other adults to be okay with?

The solution is easy. Restaurants step up enforcement on unruly people: drunk, teenaged, or whiny children. Have a sign informing people they will be asked once to keep it quiet, and if it continues, they will be asked to leave - pay for your food, here’s a doggy back, please come back when the noise won’t be an issue. If people are kicked out a couple of times, ban them for some period of time. You might make a scene, but if the noise was really bothering patrons, I feel like they would (or most certainly I would) respect the owner for sticking to his guns.

You know I would say that that family then should wait to take the kid to that restaurant until it is old enough to be allowed there. I mean why should us that want an evening out without kids have to make all the sacrifices? Besides the couple could still go out there on date night. You making it sound like they would have to drag the kid everywhere or something. The thing is with fancy places is more often then not they are not the place for young children. Even the most well behaved kid is going to get fidgety if they have to sit for a long time. If they have nothing to distract them. Not to mention some of these places aren;t equiped for kids at all no kids menu no boosters seats so on and so forth. Though on the other end of things I donlt think parents should be stuck going to ****** places like chucky cheese. But there is still a large variety of nice places to go inbetween the fancy places that cater only to adults and places that cater mainly to children like chucky cheese. But really if my husband and I were that couple you know we would just deal with it go out there on date nights by ourselves and take the kid elsewhere not whine and complain that that one restaurant not let our kid in.

Well I donlt imagine an adult only place to necessarily be a loud place full of drunken people if that is what you are implying. HOwever it would be nice to be able to go to the place and not have to worry about kids running around. To not have to shout to hear yourself over a large family. Actually ideally this place would have a very strict policy on drinking and only a certain number of drinks would be allowed per person so drunkeness wouldn;t likely be a problem in the first place.

That is certainly a good idea however it is not the easy solution you seem to think it is. You seem to forget that not everyone will leave quietly and once the damage has been done the damage has been done. And sure that might be one thing in a family friendly restuarant that clearly advertises itself as a place for families to go. I think people going to places like that expect that they will run into kids and might run into unruly kids and will be more understanding. However people paying lots of money to go to a highend not family oriented very nice restuarant aren;t typically going to be so forgiving. Yes they probably would be happier that the owner kicked the offending people out rather then do nothing but that doesn;t mean there still isn;t a good chance they will decide to take their money elsewhere or ask to have their meal comped. Now it might be one thing if this is a once in a while thing, but if a restuarant has gotten multiple complaints about children and isn;t a place that children or at least very young children should be brought to in the first place well the restuarant might have to make more severe changes like bans.

 

[Calliso]

Rather than banning children completely, the restaurant might have considered rules like:
1.Children must remain quietly in their seats unless being escorted to the restroom by an adult.
2.Children who misbehave will be asked to leave.
3. No strollers, highchairs, infant seats allowed.,

Children old enough and well-behaved enough to enjoy dinner in a nice restaurant would thereby be welcome. and parents might get a clue about the expectations for behavior in a place mostly geared for adults.

The thing is though that restuarant didn;t ban children it only banned childrren under 6. Which still means most children can still go there just not the very young ones.