Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[WantingUnity]

tevans9129,

Sometimes when those of us who spent our lives not being Catholic try to think about what the Catholic view might be, it feels a lot better to see chapter and verse - it’s what we are used to seeing. Vico did a great job giving you some verses to think about and I hope you will. Especially consider this, if in Matt. 16 Jesus built his church on Peter the rock, wouldn’t you want to be a part of that church?

Blessings.

 

[kimbari]

Are you talking about a church building? Because a Catholic doesn’t HAVE to belong to a particular edifice, he can go to any Catholic church anywhere.

Protestants make much of belonging to a “good, bible-believing church.” For Catholics it’s not so much the edifice that’s important as is the body of Christ. No building can ever contain it in its entirety.

I don’t have any Scripture passages to “prove” any of that, though, so I assume you will ignore it.

I used to use the passages you cite to assuage my guilt for not practicing my religion (a rebellion in which I spent over two decades). Those passages said I was safe and “saved,” so why should I go to Mass? The question is, if you’re a Catholic, why wouldn’t you want to go to Mass? The Mass is an incredible gift, even without the miracle of the Eucharist, why wouldn’t you want to partake?

You can ignore that, too.

 

[Elsport1]

I assume you believe in the trinity? Where’s the Biblical chapter:vs that uses the word “trinity?”

It doesn’t exist. However it’s a pretty common belief that one must believe in the trinity to by a Christian.

The Bible is the Word of God, but it is through her church (the Catholic Church) that we learn how to interpret the Bible. We also have Tradition to fill in the gaps that 1st century Christians hadn’t yet figured out (granted the Holy Spirit could have revealed more if He had wanted too but He didn’t).

If it is through faith in the Bible alone that gets one to heaven was heaven closed to people till 393 AD or so? How did one find out about Christ before then…ah yes, through God’s Church, the Catholic Church. Or perhaps we should wait till the protestants “corrected” the compilation in the 1600’s? So nobody could use God’s word to be saved till the Bible was turned into the current protestant form???

I just really don’t understand how anyone can rely on scripture to disprove the Catholic Church when it was the Catholic church who compiled the scriptures into one book, before then there were a lot more books that were popularly thought of to be the inspired word of God and some of the books in the current cannon were thought by many not to be the inspired word of God. It was the Catholic church under the influence of the Holy Spirit who created the book we now call the Bible. How did the Catholic church get something so incredibly important right and then get everything else wrong???

 

[Robertanthony]

I “believe on Him” with all my heart, I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, I believe that God raised Him from the dead, I have confessed my sins to Him and have asked His forgiveness and that He will be my Lord and Savior, however, I am not Catholic, therefore, is it your opinion that I do not have salvation?

No. I believe the Catholic Church to be the Church founded by Christ, that it has spiritual treasures for whoever is earnest and sincere in seeking God, it is the vehicle par excellence as it were, but I hope and pray people like Charles Stanley (born and raised Baptist) or Joyce Myers, who seem to me like true people of God will receive eternal bliss as a reward. In the end doing God’s will is way above Church membership.(If you love me, you’ll do my Father’s will.)

 

[Sufjon]

It is my opinion that it matters not to which “church” one belongs to, or any church for that matter, as to salvation, only the condition of the heart and if one has sincerely accepted Christ as their Savior. What says you and do you have scripture supporting your answer? Bear

Yes, Jesus insists that you belong to a fully accredited church, and have all of your supporting paperwork in order. Makes sense, doesn’t it? That’s why Jesus built big churches all over Palestine, collected revenues, kept copious notes and records on membership, and spent most of His time on rituals. Of course this was necessary, because who could follow a guy who roamed the countryside without any august trappings, formal structures and proper hierarchies in place. Such a person might be crucified. Beter sign up for one today. The bigger the better.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[tevans9129]

I think that what he is trying to say is that you must belong to the church to recieve the flesh and blood that Jesus speaks of. I could be wrong about his intent, but I would guess that this is what he’s trying to get to…

Thanks for the comment and I agree with what you say. My problem is, what does it have to do with salvation? To me, there are many verses that clearly state what is required for salvation, there are also many verses of instructions as to how we are to show our gratitude and obedience to the Lord.

Bible dictionaries give very different meanings for, salvation, regeneration, sanctification and glorification. IMO, the Bible makes it clear that salvation is an event, not a process. Bear

 

[Little_One0307]

wsxyz;7868134:

In Chapter 66 of Justin Martyr’s First Apology,

Thanks for the info wsxyz, however, I would like to have scripture supporting your view, not the opinion of other men. I think we can agree that with the internet, one can find support for most any view one may have. IMO, if it cannot be proven with scripture, then it is only the opinion of the one expressing his views. Bear

Morning,

I wish to bring something into consideration in your question.

Catholics believe that the Word of God is made known in 2 modes of transmission - Sacred Scriptures - the Bible, and Sacred Tradition.

I have a question. What is the bible could be used to prove two contradictory positions at the same time? Can anyone really understand ALL of the bible? And when presented with these proofs which one is the correct one? How do we know that a proof is really a proof?

The Catholic Church believes and venerates and uses much of the Sacred Scriptures in all facets of its life. However, man is subject to misunderstanding. We all can interpret things differently, we need a standard. We need someone who can teach definitely what something means. And this is provided by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church.

We believe that Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ [divine revelation]. - [CCC #80].

“The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradtion, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is excerised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted tot he bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.” - [CCC 85].

There is a wonderful section dealing with this in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. It is in Part One under Article 2. The transmission of Divine revelation. Paragraphs 74-95

And my final question. What is there was another source in addition to Sacred Scripture that could help you grow in closer union with God? Would you not wish to pursue that as well?

Little One0307

 

[tevans9129]

This is my reply to a post by Elsport1, please let me know if I have broken any rules, if I have, I apologize.

First, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post and, for your best wishes.

Where did the Bible come from??? How can you use something the Catholic Church put together to attempt to disprove the teachings of the Catholic church?

This statement is confusing to me, if, the Catholic Church put the Bible together, and, if, I quoted from that Bible, how is it me that is disproving the teachings of the Catholic Church? Is all of the Bible inspired, or only parts of it?

The scriptures need to be taken as a whole. Not as little one liner’s. Remember the Bible was not originally broken down into chapter and verse.

And I am aware of that, however, would it make a difference had I not quoted c&v, was applying c&v not for the purpose of convenience?

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Don’t most serious Satanists believe that Jesus is Lord and that he was raised from the dead? Are they saved?

I do not know any Satanists, therefore I cannot answer your question as to what they believe. As far as being saved, I doubt it; do they “confess” with their mouth that Jesus is Lord?

Do you see any qualifiers in v9, are there any exceptions, are there any “ifs or buts”?

see above comment.

Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

What exactly must one confess? I’m not sure if just reading this line you can say.

How about, confessing that we are sinners, that we are in need of a Saviour, that Jesus shed His blood for us on the cross. Do you agree that believing with the heart is different than simply verbalizing something intellectually?

It has not been my intention to suggest that any doctrine can be established using one verse, just as you stated earlier. I thoroughly agree that the Bible should be taken as a whole.

I see nothing in v10 about belonging to any “church”, do you?

No, I don’t. But also if I read the entire Bible I won’t find anything about sola scriptura or about being saved by “faith alone”

Once again, how do you explain Ephesians 2:8?

in fact in the book of James it specifically says you can’t be saved by faith alone. To play your quote one line out of the Bible game here it is

James2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Am I mistaken or did you jump from, “can’t be saved by faith alone” to, “by works a man is justified”? Is there not a difference in salvation verses justification?

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

I “believe on Him” with all my heart, I have confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, I believe that God raised Him from the dead, I have confessed my sins to Him and have asked His forgiveness and that He will be my Lord and Savior, however, I am not Catholic, therefore, is it your opinion that I do not have salvation?

to be continued

Bear

 

[tevans9129]

second part in response to Elsport1

The catholic church teaches no one is guaranteed of salvation until death, so no I don’t think you currently have salvation as you are obviously not currently in heaven. Do I think you will be saved if you continue to practice your faith outside of the one true faith? To put it bluntly, possibly; but not likely.

OK, the Catholic Church teaches that, since I believe you said that the Bible came from the Catholic Church, can you direct me to the passages where the Bible teaches that? Do you believe that Jesus keeps His word? If you do, how do you explain verses 26-29?

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Does Jesus not say that He gives eternal life to His sheep and, that no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand? When we hear the message of the gospel and accept Jesus as our Saviour, are we not sealed with Him and are given a pledge of our inheritance as stated in v13,14?

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I have faith that the Lord will do as He promises and that I am saved by His grace, not by anything that I have done, or not done.

Once again see James 2:24

Once again, sanctification verses salvation, different issues, IMO.

Also we are saved through faith, and it is an unmerited gift from God…but that doesn’t mean we don’t have to do anything to keep the gift.

Can you provide some scripture where we are required to do works to “keep” the gift? If I gave you a gift, say $1000.00, but in order for you to retain that gift, you must wash my car every week for a year, would you consider that a gift, or, would you feel like you earned that money?

Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

If one must do works for salvation, is salvation then a “gift of God” or, is it something that we have earned?

We can NEVER earn heaven the sin of Adam guaranteed that. The gift of God was to open the doors to heaven again to us…we can always choose not to follow the “narrow way”.

That statement I agree with completely.

Mathew 7:14 For narrow the gate and straitened the way that leads to life, and they are few who find it.

If it were as easy as saying I believe in you Jesus, I’m sorry for my sins would the way to heaven really be through a “narrow gate”?

Talk is cheap, and in my opinion is the reason God placed so much emphasis on the “heart”, remember, “and believe in your heart”.

I can easily make the statement that you will agree with what I have written, do I believe in my heart that you will, not in this lifetime.

I have never said that we should not try our best to live as Jesus instructed and be obedient to His word. That being said, can you quote scripture that says we must do so and so for salvation, other than believing in our hearts and confessing that Jesus is Lord? Can you quote scripture that states that we can loose that salvation, rewards, crowns, yes, salvation, I do not think so.

It’s late and way past my bedtime so hopefully I my post is coherent. Best wishes and prayers in your quest for Truth.

Thank you and best wishes to you and may God bless.

 

[Elsport1]

This statement is confusing to me, if, the Catholic Church put the Bible together, and, if, I quoted from that Bible, how is it me that is disproving the teachings of the Catholic Church? Is all of the Bible inspired, or only parts of it?

Well the Catholic Church teaches that you need to belong to her to be saved and you are trying to use a collection of books that were compiled by the Catholic Church to show that she is wrong. If the Church is wrong about salvation (which I think we’d agree is the most important thing to be right about) then why would she be right when she put together the Bible? No where in the Bible does it say that the only way knowledge of God can be imparted to the faithful is through scriptures.

I am genuinely curious how you justify your distrust in the Catholic Church and yet you trust completely that she picked the right books to be considered the inspired word of God?

I do not know any Satanists, therefore I cannot answer your question as to what they believe. As far as being saved, I doubt it; do they “confess” with their mouth that Jesus is Lord?

I actually do think they confess that Jesus is the Lord of heaven…they’d just rather worship the satan. But like you I don’t actually personally know any satanists.

Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

What exactly must one confess? I’m not sure if just reading this line you can say.

How about, confessing that we are sinners, that we are in need of a Saviour, that Jesus shed His blood for us on the cross. Do you agree that believing with the heart is different than simply verbalizing something intellectually?

Yes I totally agree that believing with your heart is different than just verbalizing something intellectually. But does the scripture actually say what EXACTLY we must confess? I’m not really convinced that it does. I think that you’re right that we need to confess that we are sinners in need of a savior and that Jesus is that savior and through his death on the cross we receive the ability to be saved, however I think that is not all we must do to be ultimately saved. What about baptism?

Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If baptism is required for the remission of sins then how does one get in the presence of the one true God by faith alone without baptism?

James2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Am I mistaken or did you jump from, “can’t be saved by faith alone” to, “by works a man is justified”? Is there not a difference in salvation verses justification?

The Catholic Church teaches that you cannot be saved unless you’ve been justified. When talking to a Catholic we use the term justification a lot like how protestants use the term saved/salvation. On Earth if you’re in a state of grace (living a life that would allow you to be saved at death) then you are justified. Salvation doesn’t occur until after death. So if you are not justified you will not be saved.

I tried to cut and paste so that there wasn’t to much in the one post…hope I didn’t cut out anything that you thought was super important.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Please use the quote system properly. Otherwise it makes it harder for readers to follow the conversation.
Thank you.

 

[Elsport1]

second part in response to Elsport1

The catholic church teaches no one is guaranteed of salvation until death, so no I don’t think you currently have salvation as you are obviously not currently in heaven. Do I think you will be saved if you continue to practice your faith outside of the one true faith? To put it bluntly, possibly; but not likely.

OK, the Catholic Church teaches that, since I believe you said that the Bible came from the Catholic Church, can you direct me to the passages where the Bible teaches that? Do you believe that Jesus keeps His word? If you do, how do you explain verses 26-29?
I firmly believe that the Catholic church can teach things that aren’t in the Bible. So in some ways your question is a bit hard to answer just because we look at the Bible in slightly different ways. . However, yes I do believe that Jesus always keeps his word. In response to the below verses have you thought that perhaps you are not one of His sheep since you don’t belong to His Church you are outside the fold so these promises don’t actually apply to you? No one snatched you out of God’s hand you have chosen not to be there…as I could choose to leave. There is a difference between being snatched out of someones hand and leaving (or staying away) under your own volition.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Does Jesus not say that He gives eternal life to His sheep and, that no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand? When we hear the message of the gospel and accept Jesus as our Saviour, are we not sealed with Him and are given a pledge of our inheritance as stated in v13,14?

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
I’d say to this you having actually listened to the entire message of truth yet.

Also we are saved through faith, and it is an unmerited gift from God…but that doesn’t mean we don’t have to do anything to keep the gift.

Can you provide some scripture where we are required to do works to “keep” the gift? If I gave you a gift, say $1000.00, but in order for you to retain that gift, you must wash my car every week for a year, would you consider that a gift, or, would you feel like you earned that money?
I totally see your point, however what if the gift was for 900 trillion dollars is there anyway you could really ever earn that gift? No! No amount of washing the car would ever come close to paying this debt back. That’s what are works are like, washing a car to attempt to pay back a gift so large we can’t even fathom how big the gift is. If we don’t have the works then it’s pretty doubtful that we really believe in our hearts that God has given his only son to us in reparation for our sins.

Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Are works are so pathetic compared to the gift of God that it would be pretty silly to boast.

If one must do works for salvation, is salvation then a “gift of God” or, is it something that we have earned?

If it were as easy as saying I believe in you Jesus, I’m sorry for my sins would the way to heaven really be through a “narrow gate”?

Talk is cheap, and in my opinion is the reason God placed so much emphasis on the “heart”, remember, “and believe in your heart”.
So how do you really know that you believe with your heart. We all sin, unfortunately a lot, doesn’t this sin show that we really don’t love God as we should? So how are you really sure of your salvation then? Does anyone but God really know our hearts? I often hear protestants (and I get this vibe from you) say that they KNOW that they are saved…isn’t that a bit presumptuous? If it is more than saying the words that we believe in the saving power of Christ, then how can we really know that we’ve done it “right”?

I have never said that we should not try our best to live as Jesus instructed and be obedient to His word. That being said, can you quote scripture that says we must do so and so for salvation, other than believing in our hearts and confessing that Jesus is Lord? Can you quote scripture that states that we can loose that salvation, rewards, crowns, yes, salvation, I do not think so.
I think we run into problems when we want the scriptures to say something using only one word ie: salvation and we won’t accept any other variants of the same concept as evidence that we can loose the gift God has given us.

Thank you and best wishes to you and may God bless.

Thanks, I’ve had fun debating with you…its been since college that I’ve really discussed any of this with Protestants…i’d have to say I’m a bit rusty.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

…and make sure we abide by the forum rules below.

 

[Elsport1]

Can you provide some scripture where we are required to do works to “keep” the gift? If I gave you a gift, say $1000.00, but in order for you to retain that gift, you must wash my car every week for a year, would you consider that a gift, or, would you feel like you earned that money?

What if we changed the amount and made 900 trillion billion dollars? Would any amount of window washing ever make you think you’d earned that gift? No, but you’d still feel like you should be doing something to repay that person for their unfathomable generous gift. Obviously Jesus dying on the cross for us is a bigger gift than anything we could ever dream of.

I have never said that we should not try our best to live as Jesus instructed and be obedient to His word. That being said, can you quote scripture that says we must do so and so for salvation, other than believing in our hearts and confessing that Jesus is Lord? Can you quote scripture that states that we can loose that salvation, rewards, crowns, yes, salvation, I do not think so.

So how do you know that you really believe with your heart? If it’s more than just saying the words then can anyone really be sure of their salvation even under the protestant creed of “faith alone”? We all sin. When we sin we show that we really do not love God as much as we should, so how can you really know that your “heart” believes enough if you’re still sinning? I just don’t get how anyone can think he is definitely going to heaven when he dies, seems rather presumptuous on God’s mercy.

How does a man who is not justified get to heaven? How can you not be sanctified and be in the presence of the good God and live (be saved)?

.

So my attempt to answer all of your questions turned into a formatting nightmare! So here are my answers to the two that struck me the most.

I’ve enjoyed debating with you, it’s been a long time since I’ve debated about religion with non-Catholics and I’ll have to admit that I’m more than a bit rusty.

 

[dje101]

Thanks for the comment and I agree with what you say. My problem is, what does it have to do with salvation? To me, there are many verses that clearly state what is required for salvation, there are also many verses of instructions as to how we are to show our gratitude and obedience to the Lord.

Bible dictionaries give very different meanings for, salvation, regeneration, sanctification and glorification.** IMO, the Bible makes it clear that salvation is an event, not a process. Bear**

Don’t know if someone pointed this out, but salvation is a process until we are in Heaven and not simply just an event in our lives.

Philipians 2:12: So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence…

Process, not just an event.

 

[cemiller]

Sorry this is rather long, and I am by no means a theologian, but this is what I’ve gather after a lot of studying…
In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”
From this we gather that salvation is not a single event. You have to “work it out”
Matt 24:1 “He who endures to the end will be saved”
This implies that salvation can be lost if you don’t endure to the end of your life.
Romans 11:22"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"
Another instance of being “cut off” which means at one time you were attached or saved.
John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Here we see that baptism is a requirement for salvation since you cannot enter the gates of heaven without it.
John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”
Here if you don’t “bear fruit” such as the fruit of your labors or works you will be “taken away” or cut off from the vine by the Father. Also cross that with Mathew 7:17 “Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.”
There are many conditions that God has set up for salvation. I’m sure you can fire back another quote or 2 about Faith being a part of salvation, but in truth it is a combination of BOTH that truly leads to salvation. One without the other is dead. I am not Catholic at this point, but I have been studying the Church for a few years now, and am strongly thinking of joining. I pray that God will lead you to the truth as I feel he has me. We also need to look past our feelings and actively search for the truth. I would suggest reading Catholicism Answer Book by Rev John Trigilio JR and Rev Kenneth D. Brighenti, you could also pick up a copy of the Catechism to read the official words of the Church, or check out these links:
catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207clas.asp
There are a lot more good links I could post, but doing a quick search on Catholic.com will probably yield a ton of good information.

 

[Curious_Seed]

It is my opinion that it matters not to which “church” one belongs to, or any church for that matter, as to salvation, only the condition of the heart and if one has sincerely accepted Christ as their Savior. What says you and do you have scripture supporting your answer? Bear

Your question was asked, in Luke 23:42.

A question that Jesus answered directly, in Luke 23:43.

Did Jesus answer that there is only one Church: the Catholic Church?

I do thank God, for the Catholic Church; but, membership is not required [in it or any church], for salvation.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Hi Bear! It does matter what church you belong to, but you can be saved if you’re not in the Catholic Church. The teaching of no salvation outside thechurch is that if you reject the church with full knowledge and consent, you can’t be saved (mortal sin). As for faith alone and OSAS, I think the bible refutes both. Just to get you thinking, can you be saved if you don’t love God? Catholics will say no, but how about you? If you say no, and you must love God to be saved, then you have to love others to be saved, because you can’t love God if you don’t love others (somewhere in 1 John). That means that works are necessary for salvation (as Catholics say). You seem to think that Catholics teach you can “earn” your salvation. That is not true, and if you learned more about what Catholics believe you would see that it is not true. I hope this helps.

Joey

 

[tevans9129]

Please use the quote system properly. Otherwise it makes it harder for readers to follow the conversation.
Thank you.

I made three attempts to use the quote system and this is all that appeared,

Elsport1:
As you can see, that did not contain any of the response and is the reason that I used an unorthodox method in responding.

Bear

 

[tevans9129]

…and make sure we abide by the forum rules below.

Hi Eric, would you be so kind as to point out which rule(s) that I am breaking? I am getting the uncomfortable feeling that perhaps I am asking too many questions that may be challenging the Catholic beliefs and if I persist, then I will be banned from posting. I apologize if this thought is in error but it has happened to me more than once, I was welcome in the group until I began asking difficult questions then I was banned. If that is the policy of this forum, please let me know and I will shake the dust from my feet and move on. Thanks.

Bear