Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[mackbrislawn]

tevans9129;7939320]Part 2 of 2

IMO, scripture clearly asserts that when one accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, that person instantly becomes a member of the body of Christ. But just being a member of a named church does not make such a guarantee. Bear

Would you agree that to be saved, and a member of the body of Christ, one has to be in Christ? If so, how does one become in Christ?

Paul at Romans 6:3 4, says that it is by means of baptism: “Do you know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life.”

And at Romans 6:7: “For he who has died is free from sin.” These verses illustrate another way of how baptism frees us from sin. Peter uses the illustration of washing our sins from our conscience by means of baptism, and Paul here uses the illustration of dying to our sins by means of baptism. Verse 11: “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ.” Baptism puts us in Jesus Christ.

In my opinion, baptism is the formal and supernatural means by which one accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior. It is the means by which one’s sins are forgiven, and hence makes one a member of the body of Christ, and also of the Church.

Of course, you are right in a way, if you believe and repent, but get run over by a chariot, or a truck, on the way to being baptized, I think God will take that into account…

I’m not sure what you mean by “named” church. Do you mean a named denomination, or do you mean being on the rolls of a local congregation?

 

[PRmerger]

Part 1 of 2

OK, would you quote scripture that makes that assertion?

We’ll do that, right after you quote Scripture that says we have to quote Scripture to make any (theological) assertion.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m confused about this article. At the beginning, didn’t it say that the unbaptized infants might go to Limbo and then said they would participate in the beatic vision? I thought Limbo was closed after Christ came and that’s when Purgatory was opened.

The Limbo of the Fathers (Old Testament Saints, including female saints such as Sarah and Esther) was closed when Christ ascended into Heaven and opened the gates of Heaven to the human race. The Old Testament Saints went to Heaven at that time.

Because Heaven was now opened to human beings, Purgatory also came into existence as a process of purification for those entering Heaven, to make them perfect.

All of this is achieved by means of Christ’s death on the Cross, and the blood and water flowing forth from His Sacred Heart - it is not a separate event.

There is a popular theory (not supported by anything in the Holy Tradition or in the Bible) that unbaptized infants can go to a “limbo of infants” - this would be instead of either going to Hell, or experiencing the Beatific Vision.

There has been no revelation to the Church ever given from God as to the fate of unbaptized infants - we hope and trust in the mercy of God, but we cannot say where they go if they die before baptism, because they are innocent of actual sin, but not made free of original sin.

 

[jmcrae]

I have been so baptized, believe in Jesus, love God and people, but I am not Catholic. I claim to be a Christian and a member of the body of Christ, am I saved or not, in your opinion?

If you are still alive, you can be 'being saved," but no one is “saved” (past tense) until they actually have already arrived in Heaven.

When I first began reading the Bible, I did not believe in OSAS either, primarily due to verses in Hebrews and James. However, there are a number of other verses that I believe make it very clear. The caveat is that one is truly saved to begin with and in that I mean that one has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior from the heart, not by words.

There are plenty of people who begin with much zeal, but who fade away and lose their faith when they get older, because of various experiences that they have.

My question is that if one does not love God, why would they invite Him into their heart to be their Lord and Savior?

No one would do this. However, one can become distracted, fail to pay attention to one’s relationship with God in very ordinary ways - someone might quit going to Church because of their children’s sports, and then stop praying because of being rushed in the mornings and busy in the evenings, and then stop believing because they no longer sense God’s presence in their lives.

Loving others is something that can take time to accomplish, more so for some of us than for others. We have “faith” that God will do what He promises and save us and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we stride to obey all of his teachings. How can one be obedient to Jesus without, the Holy Spirits’ help? And how do we receive the Holy Spirit? Ephesians 1:13 says,

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, HAVING BELIEVED, YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,

We are sealed in the Sacrament of Confirmation, with the oil of salvation and the Holy Spirit.

 

[rinnie]

If you are still alive, you can be 'being saved," but no one is “saved” (past tense) until they actually have already arrived in Heaven.

There are plenty of people who begin with much zeal, but who fade away and lose their faith when they get older, because of various experiences that they have.

No one would do this. However, one can become distracted, fail to pay attention to one’s relationship with God in very ordinary ways - someone might quit going to Church because of their children’s sports, and then stop praying because of being rushed in the mornings and busy in the evenings, and then stop believing because they no longer sense God’s presence in their lives.

We are sealed in the Sacrament of Confirmation, with the oil of salvation and the Holy Spirit.

Perfect answer. As St Paul says we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[ajpirc]

Perfect answer. As St Paul says we are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

And Martin Luther said that St. Paul wrote about salvation by faith alone.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ajpirc,

I really do not have an answer for this. I am really a "limited Limbo’ kind of guy …

After all is said and done … God may give everyone a chance to to use their free will and chose for either God or self. Heaven and Hell will be all that remain. I have nothing to back this up - just a thought…

God bless

I’m confused about this article. At the beginning, didn’t it say that the unbaptized infants might go to Limbo and then said they would participate in the beatic vision? I thought Limbo was closed after Christ came and that’s when Purgatory was opened.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Part 1 of 2

OK, would you quote scripture that makes that assertion?

I think I attempted to a long time ago, but I can’t remember . Anyway, I’m basically saying you must be part of the Body of Christ, which (in technical terms) means being in the Catholic Church (Catholics correct me if I’m wrong). BUT, there was only one church in the Apostle’s days, and schisms were condemned, so it makes logical sense that you would only be saved in that church if you had heard the Gospel.

I have been so baptized, believe in Jesus, love God and people, but I am not Catholic. I claim to be a Christian and a member of the body of Christ, am I saved or not, in your opinion?

If you’re part of the Body of Christ you are saved.

When I first began reading the Bible, I did not believe in OSAS either, primarily due to verses in Hebrews and James. However, there are a number of other verses that I believe make it very clear. The caveat is that one is truly saved to begin with and in that I mean that one has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior from the heart, not by words

Would you mind sharing those verses? If we have free will, I don’t know why we would stop having it once we have been saved. God doesn’t force us to stay saved. How come we have free will before we are saved, but not after? Would you provide Scripture asserting your view?

My question is that if one does not love God, why would they invite Him into their heart to be their Lord and Savior

If your definition of faith includes faith, hope, and love, then we agree on how we are saved (probably).

Perhaps it is only semantics, however, I disagree that His grace “makes” us perform good works. I believe that we perform works in appreciation for what Jesus did for us on the cross and, to show others by our works that we belong to the kingdom of God. I believe scripture strongly suggests, perhaps even states, that our works result in rewards and crowns as when Paul talks about running the race, which comes “after” salvation.

It IS semantics, besides the fact that works come “after” salvation. Salvation is a process (which you MIGHT disagree with), and we perform works as we work out our salvation. The Holy Spirit infuses our hearts with faith, hope, and love when we are saved, and we continue to have those things after we are saved (assuming we don’t fall away). But even this may be semantics.

Where does scripture say that one cannot be saved without works? I agree that if one does not produce good fruit, there would be suspicion of that person not being saved. How about the thief on the cross with Jesus, how many good works did he do?

This could be semantics also, but: you can’t be saved without loving God, so that automatically makes works necessary for salvation. About the thief on the cross, he DID do good works:

He rebuked the other criminal for mocking Christ, he asked Jesus for forgiveness, he believed that Jesus was the Christ. There are other places on this site and around the Internet that explain how the thief on the cross did good works.

That is not correct and I do not believe you can quote me ever saying that.

Forgive me. Sorry for assuming .

I contend that salvation is a free gift of God, and if we believe that we have to perform works for that salvation, or, even to retain it, then we are disobedient to His word

Yes, salvation is a free gift of God, and we cannot earn it. But we do need to keep in step with the Holy Spirit in order to be saved (Gal. 6:7-8). And we do need to do good works to keep that salvation, by keeping in step with the Spirit (James 2:14-26, John 15:1-12).Eph. 2:8-9 says that we aren’t saved from good works, but it doesn’t say good works don’t keep us saved. However, we are called to good works (Eph 2:10), and if we don’t do them, can we be saved? Now, would you please show me where it says in the Bible that good works don’t keep us saved?

I think there are people in the CC that will be in Heaven, and some that will not

Very true, as shown in the parable of the weeds.

just as is true of other earthly churches.

Well, I disagree, but its a different topic so…

Thanks for your comments and sharing your views Joey.

Bear

You’re welcome . As I mentioned earlier, I think much of it is semantics. For me having a Lutheran background with Catholic theology in the Midwest, the theological language is quite different than yours, as you are a Baptist from Tennessee.

Good luck on your long journey across the “Sea of Semantics” . Atleast it was long for me.

 

[Morpheous90]

When I was a Protestant, we believed heavily on a “Jesus and Me” ideology. Sure we got together in church and worshipped and all that fun stuff. BUT we recognixed that no mere human being or groups of them had a choosing of was “saved” and what not. Gah, I miss my old pastor. Sweetest man I ever met and could explain the Bible clearly without these “what ifs”.

 

[tevans9129]

Even better. Remember that Catholics and Protestants agree that it is grace that saves, and that grace is a free gift.

I believe that your statement here is somewhat misleading, if, I understand the Catholic position correctly. First, there are Protestants that also believe that grace plus works are required for salvation therefore, they certainly would agree with the CC. OTOH, there are many of us Protestants that believe the scriptures, just as it says in Ephesians 2:8 & 9,

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Notice the phrase “you have been saved”, past tense, a done deal, nothing about future works, joining and obeying the proprietary rules and dictates of any church.

As an example.

Vatican II states very clearly that the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation”
Flannery, op. cit., vol. 1, pp. 364*65.

This dogma is stated in numerous papal decrees like that of Pope Boniface VIII:

“There is one holy Catholic and apostolic church, outside of which there is no salvation… it is altogether necessary for salvation for every creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
From his papal bull, Unam Sanctam, a.d. 1302.

Are the above quotes in error and if so, can you explain?

Any additional requirements, IMO, has been added to scripture which is strictly forbidden as stated in Revelation 22:18 & 19,

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Is that not clear enough for most everyone to understand, without having someone tell them what it means?

It is our faith that makes us justified (in right relationship) with God. /QUOTE]

I am not sure what you mean by, “in right relationship with God”, can you explain?

“Working” your salvation means we exercise our new life in Christ, like we would physically exercise for the good of our material bodies and muscles. What happens if we fail to work our muscles (which we received as a free gift in a sense from our physical parents)? The muscles atrophy until eventually they are eventually useless. So it seems is that initial justification would be rendered useless without our “working” our salvation.

I believe this subject is a question of eternal salvation, not the initial act of being saved, therefore, I will not get into this.

Without this initial belief (faith), one cannot be saved.

That, I agree with.

The text does not imply that the salvation of the guards (and certainly not their entire households) will be completed and finished immediately upon the belief of the guards. Rather, this speaks of an initial justification - a placing of one in right relationship with God.

That is your interpretation and one that I disagree with. The jailor asked specifically, “what must I do to be saved”, to which Paul answered, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved”. Paul did not place any qualifiers to his answer, he did not tell him, first you must believe, then you must be baptized, then you must be a member in good standing with the CC, then you must do works, then you must do penitence, then you may have to spend time in purgatory etc, etc, was Paul not answering the question honestly and fully when he simply said, “you must believe”?

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Yes. He would have taken them and baptized them because it initiates them into the Church, is effective for the remission of sins, and gives grace to the recipient.

OK then, so you believe that one cannot be saved prior to being baptized, is that correct? Could you quote all the scriptures that make that assertion? Then, I will quote all scriptures that refute your assertion and, provide what I believe to be a plausible explanation for the verses that you quote and then you can do likewise for the verses that I quote, are you agreeable?

Thanks for your responses Robert, they are causing me to do much research, especially on the CC.

Bear

Peace,
Robert

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tevans,

None of us, on our own, can ‘work’ our way to heaven.

While a lowly Private can (at least in theory) work his way up to be a General Officer through his own efforts (and of course the working of God in all things!). But, this is quite a different set of circumstances - in one we are talking about eternity with God while with the other, mere earthly honor.

But, one can not dismiss works - as if sitting on one’s hands will accomplish anything because we have some type of faith. Such a faith is quite dead as St. James pointed out.

But, what really has me curious - is the entire 25th Chapter of Matthew is devoted to salvation AND works … or damnation because of decided LACK of works. Check it out - in fact, here is link you may find helpful: usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm It should track exactly with the KJV! Let me give you some ideas on this.

Matt 25:1-13: The story of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. Note, when the foolish ones came back with oil and pounded on the door, the Bridegroom DID NOT SAY, “You were pretty good girls after all, come on it!” These foolish ones failied in the works they were to have done!

Matt 25:14-30 The story of the wicked servant. Note, when the Master received the one talent back, he DID NOT SAY, “Hey! That’s not so bad, at least he did not lose what I gave him!” This wicked servant failed in the work he was to have done and is severely punished.

Matt 25:31 The story of the General Judgment - separating all humanity into the saved and the damned. Note, when the Divine Judge reviews the WORKS of the saved, He tells them that they gave Him, food and water and comfort - and the saved were unaware that it was God. By the same token wehn the LACK OF WORKS is reviewed for the damned He identifies that that failed to do what was necessary. The saved go to Heaven and the damned go to Hell.

While one may take comfort in these one-liner ‘proof texts’ that seem to wave the banner of Faith covering everything - a more studied approach will identify that, while Faith is certainly necessary, it is not everyting. One could reasonably argue that the foolish virgins knew they were to meet the Bridegroom and this was an important event, that the wicked servant knew his Master was not going to reward laziness or that those who were surprised at not seeing Christ in others were not really surprised! We have an entire chapter to deal with - and there are more instances of more is required of you - and, I will be happy to give them … but, first, I would like you to respond to this.

Please note the Vatican doucments you cite are mere providing the practical application for the necessity of taking advantage of joining the Church that Christ founded on Peter in Matt 16:18. The idea is that groups founded by sinful men on sinful men claiming to replace the Church founded by Christ on Peter profit nothing. It really is not that much different from a group of computer artists distributing reproductions of Benjamen Franklin’s portrait on small pieces of paper with $100 written in the corners! While members of the group may be self-congratulatory, the Secret Services just sees it as another counterfeit.

God bless

God bless

I believe that your statement here is somewhat misleading, if, I understand the Catholic position correctly. First, there are Protestants that also believe that grace plus works are required for salvation therefore, they certainly would agree with the CC. OTOH, there are many of us Protestants that believe the scriptures, just as it says in Ephesians 2:8 & 9,

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Notice the phrase “you have been saved”, past tense, a done deal, nothing about future works, joining and obeying the proprietary rules and dictates of any church.

As an example.

Vatican II states very clearly that the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation”
Flannery, op. cit., vol. 1, pp. 364*65.

This dogma is stated in numerous papal decrees like that of Pope Boniface VIII:

“There is one holy Catholic and apostolic church, outside of which there is no salvation… it is altogether necessary for salvation for every creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
From his papal bull, Unam Sanctam, a.d. 1302.

Are the above quotes in error and if so, can you explain?

Any additional requirements, IMO, has been added to scripture which is strictly forbidden as stated in Revelation 22:18 & 19,

 

[rinnie]

What we have to remember is before the N.T. we did not the Church to save us the way it does today.

In the O.T they were waiting for Chrrist to come to save them. If this were not true and we could do it w/o Christ then Abraham etc would all have gone to heaven w/o waiting for him.

But Christ did indeed come and gave us the Sacraments that are needed for our salvation. The first of which was Baptism.

When Christ left after he had risen he told the apostles to wait and even though he left he would still be with them. He said he would be sending his Spirit the Advocate to lead them into all truthl

That is what the Church is. Christ leading us through the Church by the Holy Spirit.

So the question really is do we need Christ and his Church for Salvation. Of course we do. Unless we do not sin. But if and when we do as Christ knew we would he gave the Church the authority to speak in his name to forgive our sins.

Where would we go to repent and ask for forgivness for our sins. People do not realize that confession is the same as people today going to a Dr. There is something about admitting out loud and confessing that sin out loud to someone that makes all the difference in the world. It does somethimg to us and for us.

It is much harder to confront our sin and admit it out loud to someone and Christ knew this. That is why he made things the way he did. And there nothing more better or nothing that moves you and gives you more faith or makes you feel better then to hear out loud YOU ARE FORGIVEN GO AND SIN NO MORE;. When you put those words together with what my Father has given me I give to you Go … You know in your heart that is God speaking through that Priest and speaking out loud just to you.

That and when you hear this is my body which is given up for YOU and this is my BLOOD put together with you MUST eat and drink to have ETERNAL LIFE; That is what makes Christ living through in his Church for sure a necessity.

 

[rinnie]

Christ tells his Apostles I am sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.

The scripture tells you Christ sent the Advocate on Pentecost to the Church. We still every year celebrate this and it is Pentecost Sunday.

John 4:23 True worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.

 

[jmcrae]

I believe this subject is a question of eternal salvation, not the initial act of being saved, therefore, I will not get into this.

Aren’t eternal salvation and “being saved” the same thing?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tevans

Hats off to JMCrae :tiphat: for catching this:

I believe this subject is a question of eternal salvation, not the initial act of being saved, therefore, I will not get into this.

I, too, would be interested in what type of distinction you are making. Ah, and in your enthusiasm for responding to posts … don’t forget the one I previously left for you. Just tack on your response to this one…

God bless

 

[tevans9129]

Answering Bear’s questions.

What scripture states that rejecting a church is a “mortal sin”?

We know what a mortal sin is from 1 Jn. 5:16 - basically a rejection of God. We are the body of Christ (1 Co. 12:12-31), and Christ is the Head of the Body (Eph 4:15-16). So if we reject the body, we reject the head (Luke 10:16). Jesus prayed for unity (John 17), and the apostle Paul wrote about it (Eph, 4:1-6, 14-16). There are 2 concepts of the Church - invisible and visible. Both are true. However, how is unity shown to the world? Invisible or visible? Visible! Christ prayed for unity so that the world would know we are Christians, and since the world doesn’t understand the concept of the invisible church, he must’ve been praying about visible unity. Christ gave us the Catholic Church (Matt. 16:18) so that we may not be “blown here and there by every wind of eaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men” (Eph. 4:14 NIV). So if the Catholic Church is the visible body of christ, then rejection of it is a rejection of Christ, as rejection of the body of christ is a rejection of christ.

OK, would you care to provide the scripture references that you believe supports your view and I will provide the ones that I believe supports my view?

Sure:

Faith alone: James 2:14-26, Romans 1:5, 16:26, Matthew 25:31-46, Hebrews 12:14, Revelation 2:23, 1 Corinthians 13:2,7,13, Matthew 22:34-40, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, etc.

Once Saved Always Saved: 1 Timothy 1:19, 1 Timothy 4:1, 1 Timothy 5:8, 1 Timothy 6:10, John 15:1-11 (stay saved), Philippians 2:12-13, Hebrews 10:19-36, etc.

There are more verses than these, but I hope that this is a start. One thing to understand with not believing in OSAS, we don’t “fear” our entire lives hoping we are saved, because we know we are saved by the Holy Spirit working in us. We can only lose the Holy Spirit by rejecting him.

As for loving others = loving God, I think 1 John 4:7-5:5 does a pretty good job of this.

To your (possible) surprise, works are mentioned atleast once when speaking of salvation: “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that worketh in you” (Phil. 2:12-13). So if there are only 42 verses (I’m positive there are more, unless those Anglicans changed the Bible ) in the KJV referring to salvation, atleast one of them talks about “doing works” for salvation (NOT earning salvation though).

Joey

Hi Joey,

When someone responds to a post of mine, I try very hard to answer all questions asked and, to address each pertinent point made by that person. I expect the same courtesy in return, which you have not honored; therefore, I see not point in any further dialogue. I think it is obvious if we pick and choose only the parts of a post that are easy for us to respond to, it comes down to, you said, I said, scenario which, IMO, proves nothing. Hope you have a great day and may we meet one day in the place where we strive to get to.

Bear

 

[tevans9129]

Because it is a false criterion that has been imposed by you (and other Protestants), but never declared anywhere to be a criterion by God.

It is like an atheist mathematician demanding that Catholics prove God’s existence by using Math-Alone. He declares: you say your God made Math. Then why can’t you use Math alone to prove He exists?

Why should we use Math alone? Why would we?

When someone responds to a post of mine, I try very hard to answer all questions asked and, to address each pertinent point made by that person. I expect the same courtesy in return, which you have not honored; therefore, I see no point in any further dialogue. It seems obvious to me that you cannot answer the questions that I have asked with supporting evidence, and I see no attempt at a sincere discussion.
Have a great day.

Bear

 

[PRmerger]

When someone responds to a post of mine, I try very hard to answer all questions asked and, to address each pertinent point made by that person. I expect the same courtesy in return, which you have not honored; therefore, I see no point in any further dialogue. It seems obvious to me that you cannot answer the questions that I have asked with supporting evidence, and I see no attempt at a sincere discussion.
Have a great day.

Bear

This is an evasion and your lack of a refutation is telling, tevans.

There is no reason you cannot address my post, except that you cannot.

 

[tevans9129]

You haven’t studied back for enough in History. And you arrive at a loose interpretation of what you "think " may have happened but in fact are not sure.

On the one hand the Twelve remain the actual foundation stone of the Church, and “permanent” point of referrence. On the other hand a special task given to Peter is underlined to him by Caesarea Philippi and when confirmed during the Last Supper [LK 22:32] when Peter was as it were introduced into the churchs eucharistic structure.

Now after the resurrection, the Lord appears first to Peter, before appearing to the Twelve, and thus once again renews Peters particular mission.

What is being Catholic Christian? Believeing is the risen Lord, beieveing it is His Hour and the Words left in that crucial Hour.

Peters speacial witnessing role is a confirmation of his commission to be the Rock on which the Church is Built!

John is his account of the risen Lord’s threefold question to Peter! “Do You Love Me” and Peter’s threefold commissioning to feed Christs Flock…viv a vis the Faith of the whole church {Jn 21:15-17

So the resurrection account flows naturally into the esslesiology; the enounter with the risen Lord in His mission and He shapes the nasent Church.

There was no Catholic Church because there was a band of TWELVE. IN 33-104 AD the Catholic word became a household name. Would Ignatius even wrote it if no-one knew what he was talking about ? Peter by the way is the First Bishop of Antioch, Ignatius is the 4th. Pretty safe to say there thinking would be very much in line. wouldn’t you agree?

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your comments, however, since you did not answer the questions in my post, nor do I see any evidence proving your assertions, I have no further comments.

1. If one believed in and was a follower of Christ, was he not referred to as “Christian”?
2. I believe in and I follow Christ, at least to the best of my ability, therefore, am I not a Christian?
3. How many verses can you quote that one is referred to as a “Catholic”?
4. Why do you suppose that something that seems to be so important for so many was not mentioned by Jesus?
5. Possibly, but the argument is, why can you not prove some of the teachings of the CC with the same Bible as they compiled, can you answer that?

Bear

God Bless, Gary

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your comments, however, since you did not answer the questions in my post, nor do I see any evidence proving your assertions, I have no further comments. If you wish any further discussion, I will be happy to do so, if, we both agree to answer any and all questions asked and, provide evidence supporting the answers if requested.

1. If one believed in and was a follower of Christ, was he not referred to as “Christian”?
2. I believe in and I follow Christ, at least to the best of my ability, therefore, am I not a Christian?
3. How many verses can you quote that one is referred to as a “Catholic”?
4. Why do you suppose that something that seems to be so important for so many was not mentioned by Jesus?
5. Possibly, but the argument is, why can you not prove some of the teachings of the CC with the same Bible as they compiled, can you answer that?

Bear

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tevans,

Your response to Swiss Guy and PRmerger is totally inadequate, and disregards any concept of dialogue. And, allow me to comment: if you were trying “…very hard…” then you need a third party to evaluate your energy level.

The fatal flaw of your entire argument for SS is that everyone can interpret what Scripture means because everyone is their own authority being individually inspirec by the Holy Spirit. If this were true, then there would not be 30,000+ groups, cults, assemblies, tabernacles, missions, congregations, etc - all claiming to be a church - yet each having a human founder! The divergence and contradiction of every element of doctrine by these 30,000+ church want-to-be’s should tell anyone that God can not contradict Himself. Here are just five examples:

**1.) Either baptism is requried as Christ said, or it is not

2.) Either the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Christ as Christ said, or it is not

3.) Either Christ gave the power to the Apostles to forgive sin as He said, or He did not

4.) Either Mary is the Mother of God as is recorded in Scripture, or she is not.

5.) Either Christ founded His Church on Peter and gave him the Keys as a symbol of that authority as He said, or he did not./**COLOR]

It is this Church that provides the followers of Christ with the Sacraments to aid us in our journey to God. It is not ‘faith alone’ (which Scripture specifically condemns) but ‘faith and works’ that makes us the servants of God to effect His Will on earth.

Hey, judging from your rather curt and copied response to Swiss Guy and PRmerger, it is not necessary to copy and paste that response to me (next time, may I suggest just a sprinkle of originality - it would make those non-responses more readable!) My guess was that you were interested in dialogue and that is why you joined this list … I was wrong about that.

God bless

When someone responds to a post of mine, I try very hard to answer all questions asked and, to address each pertinent point made by that person. I expect the same courtesy in return, which you have not honored; therefore, I see no point in any further dialogue. It seems obvious to me that you cannot answer the questions that I have asked with supporting evidence, and I see no attempt at a sincere discussion.
Have a great day.

Bear