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jredden92
Guest
I’m just wondering how a psychiatrist would classify a Dark Night.
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nunsense
Guest
No, it isn’t. Psychiatrists deal with disorders of the mind.
St John of the Cross was talking about an experience of the soul.
St John of the Cross was talking about an experience of the soul.
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Mary888
Guest
You say this because you are a believer and specifically share St. John’s beliefs, but would a psychiatrist who is either atheist or believes in another religion tell the difference between a dark of the soul and depression?
St. John did not have blood tests, psychiatric evaluation, when he experienced what he describes.
EDIT: I wanted to add that certain mystics in the East, such as St. Paysios, claim that mental disorders and specifically the Modern day widespread depression, have spiritual reasons, such as alienation from God.
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Irishmom2
Guest
I always think of a dark night of the soul as being a struggle with spiritual matters, as in a dryness in prayer, a struggle to accept a cross from God or things of that manner.
Clinical depression on the other hand can be caused by a chemical imbalance, or circumstances that weigh more heavily at times, and in my mind, have nothing to do with spiritual matters.
We often see people on CAF speaking of a dark night of the soul when it actually sounds more like depression.
Edit to add:
I have no doubt that the despair people feel in either case can be overwhelming though. In that, I believe they are similar.
Clinical depression on the other hand can be caused by a chemical imbalance, or circumstances that weigh more heavily at times, and in my mind, have nothing to do with spiritual matters.
We often see people on CAF speaking of a dark night of the soul when it actually sounds more like depression.
Edit to add:
I have no doubt that the despair people feel in either case can be overwhelming though. In that, I believe they are similar.
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jredden92
Guest
I think of mind as our thoughts so our soul is seperate from our thoughts? I think one difference is depression is an unwanted suffering but a dark night of the soul is a suffering i’ve heard someone describe as “something everyone wants”
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nunsense
Guest
It’s difficult to know what a psychiatrist would think about the dark night of the soul if s/he were an atheist because they wouldn’t have the same point of reference that St John did. A psychiatrist might interpret it as depression, but they would be wrong. Clinical depression could be either physical (chemical imbalance) or reactive (due to life events) and it is possible that spiritual distress could be a factor in depression, but that isn’t what St John was talking about. He wasn’t depressed.
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nunsense
Guest
I don’t know if everyone wants it… some people might prefer not to work so hard, but StJohn certainly felt it was a step on the road to union with God.
'Into this dark night souls begin to enter when God draws them forth from the state of beginners – which is the state of those that meditate on the spiritual road – and begins to set them in the state of the progressives – which is that of those who are already contemplatives – to the end that, after passing through it, they may arrive at the state of the perfect, which is that of the Divine union of the soul with God.”
Sometimes I think people should begin with the end… that is, read The Living Flame of Love before embarking on the Dark Night of the Soul. The destination makes the journey seem less frightening.
'Into this dark night souls begin to enter when God draws them forth from the state of beginners – which is the state of those that meditate on the spiritual road – and begins to set them in the state of the progressives – which is that of those who are already contemplatives – to the end that, after passing through it, they may arrive at the state of the perfect, which is that of the Divine union of the soul with God.”
Sometimes I think people should begin with the end… that is, read The Living Flame of Love before embarking on the Dark Night of the Soul. The destination makes the journey seem less frightening.
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
Interesting question. Like so many things, I think the answer is that it depends.
It is quite possible for someone to suffer through a dark night for many years while those around them would be completely oblivious to what is going on. I think a great modern example of that would be St. Mother Teresa. She spent many years (decades?) in the dark night, yet she thrived in other areas of her life. Her problem was spiritual not physical or emotional.
The dark night is actually spiritually beneficial. Yes, there is deep spiritual suffering and longing (just read ‘I Thirst’), but one is supposed to cling to God, to trust that he is still the same, and to continue to do his will even when consolations are absent and/or the weight of the cross is great! In this way, the soul actually grows closer to God (cherishing the opportunity to suffer rather than despairing of it) and you see an overall increase in holiness as you shed your attachments and become more like Christ.
On the other hand, it is also possible that some might react to the dark night with despair. Prolonged despair can indeed lead to depression. In that case, I can certainly see a therapist diagnosing depression. And, from a spiritual perspective, if that person cannot emerge from that despair they would likely regress in the spiritual life.
Edited for clarity.
It is quite possible for someone to suffer through a dark night for many years while those around them would be completely oblivious to what is going on. I think a great modern example of that would be St. Mother Teresa. She spent many years (decades?) in the dark night, yet she thrived in other areas of her life. Her problem was spiritual not physical or emotional.
The dark night is actually spiritually beneficial. Yes, there is deep spiritual suffering and longing (just read ‘I Thirst’), but one is supposed to cling to God, to trust that he is still the same, and to continue to do his will even when consolations are absent and/or the weight of the cross is great! In this way, the soul actually grows closer to God (cherishing the opportunity to suffer rather than despairing of it) and you see an overall increase in holiness as you shed your attachments and become more like Christ.
On the other hand, it is also possible that some might react to the dark night with despair. Prolonged despair can indeed lead to depression. In that case, I can certainly see a therapist diagnosing depression. And, from a spiritual perspective, if that person cannot emerge from that despair they would likely regress in the spiritual life.
Edited for clarity.
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blackforest
Well-known member
To clarify, psychiatrists aren’t the only ones who can make mental health diagnoses. Psychologists, social workers, counselors, and even family physicians can do the same. An ignorant professional would hastily diagnose depression, give you (or refer you for) the Zoloft, and leave it at that.
A responsible professional would take some time to rule out clinical depression all the while encouraging you to seek spiritual counsel.
Keep in mind that there’s sometimes both a clinical and spiritual component.
A responsible professional would take some time to rule out clinical depression all the while encouraging you to seek spiritual counsel.
Keep in mind that there’s sometimes both a clinical and spiritual component.
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Lea101
Guest
Even a Catholic would be hesitant to label it as a dark night because these symptoms overlap. It’s an interesting question. We know that OCD can manifest itself in religious areas, and hence why we see some people with OCD struggling with scruples.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You don’t have to be clinically depressed to be in spiritual darkness, and vice versa. It’s two separate things. I can safely say I had periods of spiritual darkness in my life. I was never clinically depressed (I have chronic anxiety instead). As someone else said, Mother Teresa was in spiritual darkness for years but did not appear to be clinically depressed.
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Crocus
Guest
I think they are completely different. Depression casts a wider net of general, non specific malaise, while the spiritual dark night is pin point focused on God.
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TK421
Guest
It could be misdiagnosed as depression but if a person listened to somebody suffering from a dryness of the soul and made an honest effort to help them, but without the benefit of spirituality, they would probably tell the person that they should branch out and try to find something new in life that is challenging and stimulating.
Or, they might work with the person in building a mindset that focuses on gratitude, which wouldn’t be on target, but it would be a completely understandable mistake.
Or, they might work with the person in building a mindset that focuses on gratitude, which wouldn’t be on target, but it would be a completely understandable mistake.
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It’s different perhaps for everyone. I am in the middle of one…
It is a purging process
To bring yourself closer to God 8n all matters.
During a dark night you start to see a disconnect between who you thought you were and how your soul desires your persona to be more Christ centered
There are no consulations in prayer.
In my case~~~The intellect and soul is not aligned…
Katie
Ps I have a prayer intention for this so if you have some time pls
Pray for me. Thank you …
It is a purging process
To bring yourself closer to God 8n all matters.
During a dark night you start to see a disconnect between who you thought you were and how your soul desires your persona to be more Christ centered
There are no consulations in prayer.
In my case~~~The intellect and soul is not aligned…
Katie
Ps I have a prayer intention for this so if you have some time pls
Pray for me. Thank you …
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CRV
Guest
For anyone who is interested.
www.catholiceducation.org
www.catholicculture.org
The Dark Night by St. John of the Cross ← read online.
or from EWTN - Dark Night of the Soul Authored By: John of the Cross
Understanding the 'Dark Night of the Soul'
The feeling of spiritual emptiness, or being abandoned by God, is natural in the process of growing closer to Christ. When the world looked at the fac...
www.catholiceducation.org
Dictionary : DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL
DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL General term in mystical theology to identify every form of purification through which God leads persons whom he is calling to a high degree of sanctity. It is called
www.catholicculture.org
The Dark Night by St. John of the Cross ← read online.
or from EWTN - Dark Night of the Soul Authored By: John of the Cross
po18guy
Well-known member
A psychiatrist deals with thought disorders and chemical or organic brain illness. As nunsense said, spiritual matters are quite another thing. The latter half of Saint Teresa of Calcutta’s life was a dark night - one of spiritual dryness, not of clinical depression. Through it all, she did not simply curl up on the floor. Rather, she continued working among the poor.
A lack of consolation is a dark night - externally imposed as a test of perseverance. The Books of Job and Tobit. Even Lamentations. Such dark night/spiritual dryness threads are frequently observed here. Clinical depression, on the other hand, normally has internal causation which is determined on an individual basis.
A lack of consolation is a dark night - externally imposed as a test of perseverance. The Books of Job and Tobit. Even Lamentations. Such dark night/spiritual dryness threads are frequently observed here. Clinical depression, on the other hand, normally has internal causation which is determined on an individual basis.
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Maximus1
Guest
I think it dubious to have an atheist psychologist evaluate John of the Cross in any time.
What might be derived from it?
What might be derived from it?
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Mary888
Guest
Since it is impossible for it to happen, we never know what could derive from it.
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GEddie
Guest
I doubt that it is fruitful to try to tease apart the mind and the soul. Body and soul are confusing enough.
Only a psychiatrist can diagnose depression, and only a priest can discern the DNS. As very few men are both, it may take some time to find out which is going on. And it may not matter to the person going through it.
ICXC NIKA
Only a psychiatrist can diagnose depression, and only a priest can discern the DNS. As very few men are both, it may take some time to find out which is going on. And it may not matter to the person going through it.
ICXC NIKA
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fhansen
Guest
Would they really know what it is? Could they identify with or honestly relate to such an experience?
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