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ProVobis
Guest
Maybe I did misinterpret it. How would you interpret it?
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
That said, the only drums I heard were during the reading of the Passion on Palm Sunday. I’m not going to say it was inappropriate. It was just basically pointless. If it were supposed to create more drama, I certainly didn’t feel it.
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Rascalking
Guest
Never in my life would I have thought that drums in mass would cause such drama.
Is it the moral equivalent to committing a homicide? Wait…don’t answer that question…
Is it the moral equivalent to committing a homicide? Wait…don’t answer that question…
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PatriceA
Guest
Again, its your opinion and your personal taste. There is nothing in the Church teachings that prohibit a folk group being used for the music ministry at Mass. Plus, the folk group that was the music ministry at mass last weekend, sang the very same hymns that the other cantors and organist played at the other masses. All traditional Catholic hymns, nothing like the songs you mentioned. Folk groups in the music ministry DO NOT automatically mean the music selected will be different than the other hymns played at the other masses on the same weekend.
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Sarabande
Guest
You would be amazed how new music brought into the mass for centuries caused so much drama… even more so than what you see here on CAF. It’s part of the reason why the Church, so many times, had to come in and reign it in, to the point where they did place bans on certain music, required a refinement of the music that was currently being used in liturgy (even when there was a ban - the churches in the court of Elinor of Aquitaine, for instance, basically ignored the Church’s stance on polyphonic music used for liturgy and so her court was notorious for having that music in both secular and sacred situations and contemporaries of the time who would visit the court would write about the scandal her court produced by doing that), including banning certain modes, chords… most notoriously the tri-tone (also called the “diabolus in musica” and banned for liturgical music because of it’s dissonance in sound.)
In more recent history, the Church has not outright placed bans on music, but still does the “reigning-in” part. Humans are the same no matter what century you are in and we all reach for something that will “speak” to us the most spiritually, aesthetically, etc., which I think is why people are so passionate about sacred and religious music.
Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), the Church has always had rules about liturgical music. In my opinion, it’s a little harder in this day and age to reign-in and request people to “refine” their music like they did up until the early 20th century, mainly because of the kind of world we live in today. I mean it’s hard enough trying to reign in Catholics on issues like birth control and even on transubstantiation. (It’s actually a bit frightening how many Catholics… even ones I thought were very devout… question transubstantiation and are verging on not believing that it is truly Jesus’ body and blood.) It’s really no different on less important issues like liturgical music. The Church is trying to do it now, but it is a uphill battle especially after so many years of just allowing anything.
Is it the moral equivalent to committing a homicide? Wait…don’t answer that question…
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Rascalking
Guest
Your right, I would be. Doesn’t it get exhausting to flip out over this stuff? I mean, if you freak out over this, how do you have the energy to get angry at the real horrors in life, like abortion and poverty? Most humans can’t spend their days angry at everything…
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree. To me, it’s not worth getting overly upset over things like this even though music is an extremely important aspect of my life. There are few things I truly get angry over. I admit, in my early to mid-20s, I did sometimes become angry over this subject. When I think back, I know it was necessary in my spiritual growth, especially during that time when I was really digging deep into my soul, coming to terms with certain hardships inflicted on me during that time, being too idealistic and feeling like I had this huge responsibility to change and better the world and also reading more of what the Church taught and espoused, especially with the music documents. And then realizing how many lies I was told growing up with regards to music. As a child of the 80s and 90s (never mind the lack of catechesis), mention chant or any kind of music Pre-Vat II and they’d treat you like you were some freak child/teen, that no one did or was allowed to do that music anymore. It was as if they were trying to keep a secret and were really surprised that a kid would even be aware of the past. So, you keep your mouth shut and just go with the flow, but then you discover that what you were told was not true and I admit it made me a bit upset for a while.
But you grow out of it. I believe you sometimes need the pain in order to get deep within yourself and see the true brightness of beauty. You then realize that in order to be a truly good person to others, you have to be open and loving. In addition, for me, as a musician, to be a true artistic musician, that openness, depth and loving attitude is also required. Staying angry, bitter and negative, no matter how wrong you think a person is or parts of the world are, is detrimental to all aspects of your life. On top of that, having a child further changed my outlook. It became a waste of time to heavily argue about certain things in life and I wanted to stay away from negativity for a while in order to not pass that attitude down to my child. I had so many more important parts of my life to focus on and worry about. It made me view subjects with a much more calm and loving, and yet detached attitude for the most part.
So, when I am in similar conversations like this in real life or on threads, I view it from a few different aspects of myself. 1. I see it from my sensitive, emotional self… in order to understand why I or someone else feel the way we do about certain religious and sacred liturgical music. 2. I also look at it from an analytical and intellectual basis… leaving out the feeling and emotional aspects of it, trying to clearly view it from the Church’s stance even if I realize that some of the religious music I truly love really isn’t appropriate for mass, and willingly give it up. Also, reading up on as much church music history and regular history as possible (I LOVE history and am kind of dork in that regard.) 3. Then I also view it from a practical standpoint, being understanding of the situations and needs of individual parishes, knowing that not every place is a metropolis like where I live where you can find incredible musicians, that you can only go as far as the pastor will allow you, that you can’t insist on immediate change, but a gradual one.
Anyway, enough musings on my part. One of the things I am thankful for is that I now can attend a mass with polyphony, chant, organ or just more traditional playing of hymns and “traditional” hymns in general. In the past when I was growing up that wasn’t the case. But again, I believe we are in a transitional phase similar to what occurred in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The Church is trying to reign some of this music in, so you are beginning to see more parishes balancing out, and I think you will find more of the newer music and playing styles be a bit more refined or just die out in general if it can’t be refined, like many other music and instruments from the past that we don’t even really know about anymore.
I always enjoy reading your posts, so thank you for the conversation.
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Who here has ‘flipped’?
No, it doesn’t get exhausting making sure the liturgy is appropriately celebrated.
Ah, so liturgical matters are not ‘real’? Less ‘real’ than the way in which we worship God Almighty? Nothing is more important than worshipping God. Don’t believe me? Read the OT. Ask Blessed Mother Theresa, who we can both agree has helped the poor in more ways than you or I ever could. Lex orandi, lex credendi. If every Catholic actually started going to Mass, worshipped as the Church instructed rather than the banalities and abuses they get every Sunday, the issues you mention wouldn’t even be issues. 1 in every 6 people in the world is supposedly Catholic. If every Catholic did as they should, we could change the world, not just with pure numbers but with prayers, Mass, evangelizing, etc. Abortion wouldn’t be an issue, nor would ‘gay marriage’ or any of these other things. It’s precisely because we don’t worship properly, precisely because we think Mass is about our personal tastes, that we think the faith is the same way and hence these things happen.
And the above is even giving you the false premise that if we care about the liturgy all of a sudden we don’t care about abortion or poverty. That’s a non-sequitur, an emotional appeal. Think about it.
Who is going to care more about the big issues, do you think - A Catholic who attends Mass, fights for proper liturgy and justice or someone who couldn’t care less about Mass or how it’s celebrated? Save for one or two here and there, it is the practising faithful Catholic who will do more for social justice than the non-practising Catholic. That’s the reality of it.
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Sarabande
Guest
I think there is a difference with becoming angry and eventually bitter about what is going on in the liturgy and staying calm, level-headed, open, positive and loving and still being able to encourage a change in thought as well as to educate. I’ve seen too much of the former on both sides of the issue, and have found in my own experience as a church musician that you can make changes much easier when you take the latter attitude. Sometimes it might take longer, but I don’t think that is bad. The Church has been a bit slow in regards to this as well, for whatever reason and I’m sure for good reason. As important as I think music is for the liturgy, I also see that the Church does have more pressing issues to handle today. It’s not to belittle the subject of music in liturgy, otherwise I wouldn’t even participate in liturgical music threads. That said, I have certainly seen a clear change in attitude from the top down over the last 10 years. The Church may eventually put a smack-down like she has done in the past, but perhaps she is waiting to see how much of this music can be refined, as she has also allowed in the past. (We would not have eventually had sacred polyphony, for instance, is she did not permit time for refinement of polyphony.)
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Rascalking
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TheMc
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The liturgy is the most important thing we can do in our entire lives. It’s worth the trouble to do it right.
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NewsTheMan
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Any self-fulfilling prophecy where you set up arbitrary means of judgement can and will come true. “If anybody responds to this they’re angry and focussing on less important issues and they prove my point!” Interesting. Look, if you don’t care about the liturgy, that’s fine. Leave it to others who do. There is no faith without the worship. But don’t pretend to be neutral on this, as if you are an innocent bystander who concentrates on the “real issues”. That very judgement is taking a stand, and you’ve posted your opinion enough times in this thread to make your stand clear on this issue. You aren’t neutral. You do care about the liturgy, in your own way. You’re last few posts have shown how much you care, because you’re willing to downplay any discussion about the liturgy that doesn’t conform with your own opinion as the fruit of an angry Catholic with nothing better to do.
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TheMc
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Exactly. If you care, then you need to educate yourself on the liturgy. If you don’t care, then I would just stay out of it. And also, if you don’t care, why are you in the L&S forum?
Lex orandi lex credendi.
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Te_Deum
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We need another Pope Saint Pius V, the Great.
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NewsTheMan
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Man! That would be awesome. He was no nonsense :knight2:
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TheMc
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I know. I am of the mind that we need another Tra Le Sollecitudini. The liberals’ heads might explode, but then again, that wouldn’t be a bad thing…
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MartyrForJesus
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Will be soon enough, you just wait. The Pope is cracking down on liturgical abuse.
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NewsTheMan
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I think everybody should read the document (which they can do here).
Perhaps of particular importance is this part:
I don’t think there is a better, more succinct understanding of the role of sacred music in the liturgy. We’re not just aiming for music. We want, and God demands it, to be sacred music. It must be our highest offering and it must be universal (in other words, sorry, no, you can’t have your Mass with instruments you happen to like in your area).
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TheMc
Guest
You’d enjoy my new thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=612421
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Te_Deum
Guest
I considered creating a little group for us three titled the “Society of Saint Pius V, the Great” but then reconsidered for the obvious reason 
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