Is a God probable...?

[Neildown]

I’ve never seen so much philosophical quibbling. Someone even calculated the odds from the number of characters in the Bible.

It’s like I wrote in my story. Theresa explains something to the British Prime Minister:

“You can only be what you know you can be. You can only do what you know to do. That sums up who we are.”
“Interesting observation. I never heard of it.”
"That’s because people make the simple complicated." – Theresa

I was just making a very similar observation - calculating the odds via the number of characters from the Bible??? Really? People, information is not necessarily as simple as dots or 1s & 0s. I find these theories quite narrow to be honest, considering they’re coming from people who list themselves with religious status. No offense to those who made them up.

 

[rossum]

Have you considered challenging the findings and years of research of (what the Discovery Documentary touts as) the world leading geneticists?

amazon.com/The-Real-Eve-Billion-Discovery/dp/B00006AUKZ

Have you considered that the Discovery Channel documentary is not a proper scientific source, but a piece of scientific journalism?

A proper scientific source looks more like The “Eve” Hypotheses: A Genetic Critique and Reanalysis. To quote from the abstract:

Since mtDNA is maternally inherited in primates, this implies that all copies of human mitochondrial DNA must trace backward to a common female ancestor. The same is true for any species in which mtDNA is maternally inherited, so all such species have a mitochondrial “Eve.”

Have you considered that you may have misunderstood what that documentary was saying.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

Since mtDNA is maternally inherited in primates, this implies that all copies of human mitochondrial DNA must trace backward to a common female ancestor.

There is a big difference from “implies” & “must” and what years of painstaking genetic research actually revealed.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

There is a big difference from “implies” & “must” and what years of painstaking genetic research actually revealed.

Evidently your misconception is common enough for it to have its own heading on wikipedia’s mitochondrial eve page:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve#Not_the_only_woman

 

[rossum]

There is a big difference from “implies” & “must” and what years of painstaking genetic research actually revealed.

That “implies” and “must” are the result of years of painstaking genetic research.

You have misunderstood the meaning of M-Eve.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

That “implies” and “must” are the result of years of painstaking genetic research.

You have misunderstood the meaning of M-Eve.

rossum

So basically, the Discovery Documentary title: “The Real Eve: 5 Billion People From One Woman” cannot be correct, and all the biologists, genetic researchers and scientists are wrong concerning their conclusions.

 

[rossum]

So basically, the Discovery Documentary title: “The Real Eve: 5 Billion People From One Woman” cannot be correct, and all the biologists, genetic researchers and scientists are wrong concerning their conclusions.

The Discovery Documentary was a piece of journalism, and was reasonably accurate I presume. The real science is in the scientific papers, which is where the journalists got their information from.

You have misunderstood what the documentary said.

Are we all descended from M-Eve? Yes we are.

Are we descended from other women and men alive at the same time? Yes we are.

We got our mitochondria from M-Eve. We got our other DNA from those other men and women. Half of us got our Y-chromosome from a man alive at the same time.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

Are we descended from other women and men alive at the same time? Yes we are.

Then that Documentary would be titled “5 Billion People From Thousands Of Men And Woman”, and there would be no reason to even make it. The significance is that the results show one woman.

 

[rossum]

Then that Documentary would be titled “5 Billion People From Thousands Of Men And Woman”, and there would be no reason to even make it. The significance is that the results show one woman.

You are reading far to much into that documentary. Please learn more about Mendelian genetics and how genes are passed down from parents to children.

You are making incorrect deductions here.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

You are reading far to much into that documentary. Please learn more about Mendelian genetics and how genes are passed down from parents to children.

You are making incorrect deductions here.

rossum

Maybe you could challenge the results of the genetic researchers and scientists cited in the documentary.

 

[rossum]

Maybe you could challenge the results of the genetic researchers and scientists cited in the documentary.

I am not challenging the researchers’ results. Their results are correct.

I am challenging either the content of the documentary or your interpretation of that content.

M-Eve cannot have been alone. Firstly, she had to have had one or more males to mate with. Secondly she had to have had parents. Thirdly, allele comparisons between us and the chimps, work done by those same “genetic researchers and scientists” that you insist are correct, tell us that the human population never dropped below a few thousand breeding pairs.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

I am not challenging the researchers’ results. Their results are correct.

I am challenging either the content of the documentary or your interpretation of that content.

M-Eve cannot have been alone. Firstly, she had to have had one or more males to mate with. Secondly she had to have had parents. Thirdly, allele comparisons between us and the chimps, work done by those same “genetic researchers and scientists” that you insist are correct, tell us that the human population never dropped below a few thousand breeding pairs.

rossum

Notwithstanding, the Discovery Documentary title is: “The Real Eve: 5 Billion People From One Woman”. It details years of research by genetic experts and scientists. The Bible says that every person descended from Adam & Eve.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Notwithstanding, the Discovery Documentary title is: “The Real Eve: 5 Billion People From One Woman”. It details years of research by genetic experts and scientists. The Bible says that every person descended from Adam & Eve.

Do you realize that mitochondrial eve was not a contemporary of mitochondrial Adam? They were separated by tens of thousands of years.

 

[Kasama]

Do you realize that mitochondrial eve was not a contemporary of mitochondrial Adam? They were separated by tens of thousands of years.

“The two separate studies (Mitochondrial Eve & Y-Chromosome Adam) yield three similar results. First, both studies conclude that our genetic heritage comes to a dead end thousands of years ago. Second, both studies trace our ancestry back to the same location, Africa. Third, both studies estimate approximately 2,000 generations to the dead end, the different time frame estimates may be hinged on different assumptions used in the models of population genetics.”

arguingwithatheists.com/Pages/Evolution.htm

 

[rossum]

“The two separate studies (Mitochondrial Eve & Y-Chromosome Adam) yield three similar results. First, both studies conclude that our genetic heritage comes to a dead end thousands of years ago. Second, both studies trace our ancestry back to the same location, Africa. Third, both studies estimate approximately 2,000 generations to the dead end, the different time frame estimates may be hinged on different assumptions used in the models of population genetics.”

arguingwithatheists.com/Pages/Evolution.htm

This site is lying to you. M-Eve is dated at 200,000 years ago. At 20 years per generation, that is 10,000 generations. Your 2,000 generation figure is incorrect.

Y-Chromosome Adam lived about 100,000 years ago. That is about 5,000 generations. Your 2,000 generation figure is incorrect.

I have also come across an illustration of how we can all be descended from M-Eve, yet also have other ancestors who were her contemporaries:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2011/04/mitochondrial_eve.jpg

We get our mtDNA from M-Eve. We get our other DNA from her contemporaries. Those of us who are male get our Y-Chromosomes from Y-Adam. We get our other DNA from his contemporaries.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

This site is lying to you. M-Eve is dated at 200,000 years ago. At 20 years per generation, that is 10,000 generations. Your 2,000 generation figure is incorrect.

Y-Chromosome Adam lived about 100,000 years ago. That is about 5,000 generations. Your 2,000 generation figure is incorrect.

I have also come across an illustration of how we can all be descended from M-Eve, yet also have other ancestors who were her contemporaries:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2011/04/mitochondrial_eve.jpg

We get our mtDNA from M-Eve. We get our other DNA from her contemporaries. Those of us who are male get our Y-Chromosomes from Y-Adam. We get our other DNA from his contemporaries.

rossum

Most recent estimates conclude that Y-Chromosome Adam lived about 142,000 years ago and Mitochondrial Eve lived about 190,000 years ago. As more research is done, it keeps getting closer. The Bible says people lives a lot longer, making generations closer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

As more research is done, it keeps getting closer.

I very seriously doubt that there is any evidence behind that claim.

 

[Kasama]

I very seriously doubt that there is any evidence behind that claim.

“The fundamentalists aren’t going to like this, but Eve was an older woman–by about 84,000 years.”

“Now, researchers report that they have traced the Y chromosome lineage to modern humans’ earliest common paternal ancestor, “Y Chromosome Adam.” The team, led by molecular biologist Peter Underhill of Stanford University, looked at 167 mutations in 1062 men from 21 geographical regions. The researchers calculate that the Y chromosomes carried by modern men are versions of the Y chromosome carried by a common ancestor who lived in Africa about 59,000 years ago, they report in the November issue of Nature Genetics.”

news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2000/11/01-02.html

Hey, its getting closer.

 

[rossum]

“The fundamentalists aren’t going to like this, but Eve was an older woman–by about 84,000 years.”

“Now, researchers report that they have traced the Y chromosome lineage to modern humans’ earliest common paternal ancestor, “Y Chromosome Adam.” The team, led by molecular biologist Peter Underhill of Stanford University, looked at 167 mutations in 1062 men from 21 geographical regions. The researchers calculate that the Y chromosomes carried by modern men are versions of the Y chromosome carried by a common ancestor who lived in Africa about 59,000 years ago, they report in the November issue of Nature Genetics.”

news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2000/11/01-02.html

Hey, its getting closer.

No, it’s getting further away. You quoted Wikipedia’s earliest figure for Y-Adam of 142,000 years ago, and now you are quoting A figure of 59,000 years ago. That puts Y-Adam even further from M-Eve who was around 200,000 years ago.

You seem to be seeing what you want to see, not what is actually in the articles you are quoting. 200,000 - 59,000 = 141,000 years between M-Eve and Y-Adam on your own figures.

rossum

 

[Kasama]

No, it’s getting further away. You quoted Wikipedia’s earliest figure for Y-Adam of 142,000 years ago, and now you are quoting A figure of 59,000 years ago. That puts Y-Adam even further from M-Eve who was around 200,000 years ago.

You seem to be seeing what you want to see, not what is actually in the articles you are quoting. 200,000 - 59,000 = 141,000 years between M-Eve and Y-Adam on your own figures.

rossum

The Wikipedia articles are citing material as old as 2003, the November 2012 Issue of Nature Genetics figures by biologist Peter Underhill of Stanford University has figures that bring the dates much closer.