Is a pastoral council and its decrees non binding or does a council have pastoral authority over the faithful?

[eyesopening]

Someone in another thread has made the remark that Vatican II is not infallible because it was pastoral in nature and therefore is not binding upon us Catholics. Let us discuss here!

 

[clem456]

Someone in another thread has made the remark that Vatican II is not infallible because it was pastoral in nature and therefore is not binding upon us Catholics. Let us discuss here!

What does the word “infallible” mean?
What does the word “pastoral” mean?
Can a document that has universally binding statements also have pastoral value?
Can statements with great pastoral weight also carry the weight of magisterial teaching?

 

[eyesopening]

What does the word “infallible” mean?
What does the word “pastoral” mean?
Can a document that has universally binding statements also have pastoral value?
Can statements with great pastoral weight also carry the weight of magisterial teaching?

I don’t know clem! You tell me! I started the thread but I’m really just observing because I have no clue what any of that really means.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

The Vatican web site has an interview with Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Muller, prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.

He was asked, Was the Council binding or merely pastoral?

His answer:
The problem here is the interpretation of the word “pastoral”. All Councils are pastoral in that they are concerned with the work of the Church - but this does not mean that they are merely “poetic” and therefore not binding. Vatican II is an official Ecumenical Council, and all that was said in the Council is therefore binding for everyone, but at different levels. We have Dogmatic Constitutions and you are certainly obliged to accept them if you are Catholic. Dei Verbum discusses divine revelation, it speaks about the Trinitarian God revealing Himself, and about the Incarnation as fundamental teaching. These are not only pastoral teachings, they are basic elements of our Catholic faith. Some practical elements contained in the various documents could be changed, but the body of the doctrine of the Council is binding for everyone.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Let’s not.

 

[ProVobis]

I believe two of the 16 council documents were doctrinal. They referred to and reinforced the teachings of the past.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I think it is unhealthy to focus on this idea of a “pastoral council” as opposed to a “dogmatic council”, and even more unhealthy to focus on infallibility in such a way that anything not infallible would be regarded as optional.

The fact is that the Second Vatican Council was an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church and we laypeople should approach its documents with an attitude of submission and a desire to learn, not to judge whether those documents meet our personal preconceived standards for approval.

 

[edwest2]

I agree. Obedience and educating oneself is the right approach as opposed to gathering opinions. I was there before and after Vatican II and it is fully binding on all Catholics.

Peace,
Ed

 

[PietroPaolo]

I think it is unhealthy to focus on this idea of a “pastoral council” as opposed to a “dogmatic council”, and even more unhealthy to focus on infallibility in such a way that anything not infallible would be regarded as optional.

The fact is that the Second Vatican Council was an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church and we laypeople should approach its documents with an attitude of submission and a desire to learn, not to judge whether those documents meet our personal preconceived standards for approval.

The Teachings of Vatican 2 are part and parcel of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Period. BTW, Lumen Gentium is the DOGMATIC Constitution on the Church, so the idea that there are no Dogmatic statements from Vat 2 fails. The only people I’ve run across who promote this idea are heretical SSPX types (and being devoted to the EF, I run into them).

 

[Lormar]

I agree. Obedience and educating oneself is the right approach as opposed to gathering opinions.

Peace,
Ed

I agree.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think it is unhealthy to focus on this idea of a “pastoral council” as opposed to a “dogmatic council”, and even more unhealthy to focus on infallibility in such a way that anything not infallible would be regarded as optional.

The fact is that the Second Vatican Council was an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church and we laypeople should approach its documents with an attitude of submission and a desire to learn, not to judge whether those documents meet our personal preconceived standards for approval.

I think it is unhealthy to focus obsessively on it, but it does have some aspect of truth. What exactly, precisely, is the meaning of the term pastoral as used by John XXIII and Paul VI in reference to the Council? Clearly they meant something novel by it, or something they figured novel, by their use of it.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I think it is unhealthy to focus obsessively on it, but it does have some aspect of truth. What exactly, precisely, is the meaning of the term pastoral as used by John XXIII and Paul VI in reference to the Council? Clearly they meant something novel by it, or something they figured novel, by their use of it.

I posted on the healthiness of focusing on the pastoral/dogmatic Council question rather than the substance of the issue because I don’t really know the answer to the substance. Certainly for professional and even amateur theologians any special status of Vatican II among the other ecumenical councils would be an interesting question. But in any case it should not be used as an excuse for dissent.

 

[pnewton]

Clearly they meant something novel by it, or something they figured novel, by their use of it.

I do not see why this is “clear”. There may be other reasons to use a term other than to denote novelty. In any case it is irrelevant. “Pastoral” and "infallible are neither opposites or mutually exclusive. Pretty much everything God has done has been pastoral. The whole of Scripture stands as evidence that pastoral and infallible co-exist.

 

[PietroPaolo]

I think it is unhealthy to focus obsessively on it, but it does have some aspect of truth. What exactly, precisely, is the meaning of the term pastoral as used by John XXIII and Paul VI in reference to the Council? Clearly they meant something novel by it, or something they figured novel, by their use of it.

I tend to think J23 and P6 were referring to the tone of the Council - everything was presented positively and there were no anathemas. I wouldn’t mind seeing a Vatican 3 called to anathematize the errors of the last 50 yrs, we sure could use the clarity.

 

[PietroPaolo]

I do not see why this is “clear”. There may be other reasons to use a term other than to denote novelty. In any case it is irrelevant. “Pastoral” and "infallible are neither opposites or mutually exclusive. Pretty much everything God has done has been pastoral. The whole of Scripture stands as evidence that pastoral and infallible co-exist.

Good point in bold

 

[bcuster]

The Vatican web site has an interview with Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Muller, prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.

He was asked, Was the Council binding or merely pastoral?

His answer:
The problem here is the interpretation of the word “pastoral”. All Councils are pastoral in that they are concerned with the work of the Church - but this does not mean that they are merely “poetic” and therefore not binding. Vatican II is an official Ecumenical Council, and all that was said in the Council is therefore binding for everyone, but at different levels. We have Dogmatic Constitutions and you are certainly obliged to accept them if you are Catholic. Dei Verbum discusses divine revelation, it speaks about the Trinitarian God revealing Himself, and about the Incarnation as fundamental teaching. These are not only pastoral teachings, they are basic elements of our Catholic faith. Some practical elements contained in the various documents could be changed, but the body of the doctrine of the Council is binding for everyone.

I agree with Archbishop Muller! Thank you for the quote.

 

[triumphguy]

Pope emeritus Benedict XVI described Vatican II as

catholic.org/internationa…y.php?id=47960

“… a compass guiding the ship of the Church as she sails on the open seas, amidst tempests or peaceful waves, to reach her destination”.

Vatican II, was, he said,

“a unique experience” during which “I was able to witness the living Church … which places herself at the school of the Holy Spirit, the true driving force behind the Council. Rarely in history has it been possible, as it was then, to touch almost physically the universality of the Church at a moment of peak fulfilment of her mission to carry the Gospel into all ages and unto the ends of the earth”.

“The Pope”, Benedict XVI added, “wanted the Church to reflect upon her faith and upon the truths that guide her. But that serious and profound reflection … had to be the starting point for a new relationship between the Church and the modern age, between Christianity and certain essential elements of modern thought, not in order to seek conformity, but to show our world, which tends to distance itself from God, the requirements of the Gospel in all its greatness and purity”.

…“The age in which we live continues to be marked by forgetfulness and deafness towards God. I believe, then, that we must learn the simplest and most fundamental lesson of the Council: that the essence of Christianity consists in faith in God, … and in the individual and community encounter with Christ Who guides our lives. … The important thing today, as was the desire of the Council Fathers, is for us to see - clearly and anew - that God is present, that He concerns us and responds to us. And when faith in God is lacking our essential foundations give way because man loses his dignity. … The Council reminds us that the Church … has the mandate to transmit God’s salvific word of love, so that the divine call which contains our eternal beatitude may be heard and accepted”.
catholic.org/internationa…y.php?id=47960

The Pope then went on to mention the four conciliar Constitutions, describing them as “the four cardinal points of our guiding compass”:

“Sacrosanctum Concilium” on the sacred liturgy, which speaks of the centrality of the mystery of Christ’s presence in the Church;

“Lumen Gentium” which highlights the Church’s fundamental duty to glorify God;

“Dei Verbum” on divine Revelation, which speaks of the living Word of God that unites and animates the Church throughout history, and finally

“Gaudium et Spes” which deals with the way the Church transmits to the world the light it received from God.

“Vatican Council II”, Benedict XVI concluded, “is a powerful appeal to us to make a daily rediscovery of the beauty of our faith, to understand it deeply through a more intense relationship with the Lord, and to live out our Christian vocation to the full”.

16 documents

1. Sacrosanctum concilium, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 1963.
2. Inter Mirifica, Decree On the Means of Social Communication, 1963.
3. Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution On the Church, 1964.
4. Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Decree On the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite,1964.
5. Unitatis Redintegratio, Decree on Ecumenism, 1964.
6. Christus Dominus, Decree Concerning the Pastoral Office of Bishops In the Church, 1965.
7. Perfectae Caritatis, Decree On Renewal of Religious Life, 1965.
8. Optatam Totius, Decree On Priestly Training, 1965.
9. Gravissimum Educationis, Declaration On Christian Education, 1965.
10. Nostra Aetate, Declaration On the Relation Of the Church to Non-Christian
    Religions, 1965.
11. Dei Verbum, Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation, 1965.
12. Apostolicam Actuositatem, Decree On the Apostolate of the Laity, 1965.
13. Dignitatis Humanae, Declaration On Religious Freedom, 1965.
14. Ad Gentes, Decree On the Mission Activity of the Church, 1965.
15. Presbyterorum Ordinis, Decree On the Ministry and Life of Priests, 1965.
16. Gaudium et Spes, Pastoral Constitution On the Church In the Modern World,1965.

2600 bishops and Cardinals, two Popes, 16 documents, 4 constitutions two of which are entitled dogmatic; while it did not define new dogma it certain clarified Church teaching on a huge number of topics, and was most definitely the most important event of the magisterium in the last 100 years.

Lumen Gentium explicitly reaffirmed papal infallibility, so as to avoid any doubts, expressing this in the following words:

This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion. And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.

 

[Lancer]

Second, we need to consider** all of the other statements Pope Paul VI made on this same topic. **Two of these are actually magisterial, included in the acts of the Council itself. Each document ends with this statement:

Each and every one of the things set forth in this here the type of document is named

] has won the consent of the fathers.** We too, by the Apostolic Authority conferred on us by Christ, join with the venerable Fathers in approving, decreeing, and establishing these things in the Holy Spirit, and we direct that what has thus been enacted in Synod be published to God’s glory**…I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church.

Moreover, the entire body of the Council’s work was promulgated by** Paul VI as follows on December 8, 1965:**

We decide moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church

… we have approved and established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, and are to have legal effectiveness, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect…

​

Taken together, these two statements are what make the Second Vatican Council ecumenical, that is,** approved and promulgated by the successor of Peter, and therefore a universal magisterial exercise of the highest importance.**

catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=886

​

​

 

[triumphguy]

Vatican II was pastoral in that it wasn’t attacking a particular heresy.

And since it wasn’t attacking a specific heresy it wasn’t called upon to define new dogma in light of this.

It doesn’t mean that Vatican II was less important.

 

[Megan7]

Pope emeritus Benedict XVI described Vatican II as

catholic.org/internationa…y.php?id=47960

Vatican II, was, he said,

16 documents

1. Sacrosanctum concilium, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 1963.
2. Inter Mirifica, Decree On the Means of Social Communication, 1963.
3. Lumen Gentium, Dogmatic Constitution On the Church, 1964.
4. Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Decree On the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite,1964.
5. Unitatis Redintegratio, Decree on Ecumenism, 1964.
6. Christus Dominus, Decree Concerning the Pastoral Office of Bishops In the Church, 1965.
7. Perfectae Caritatis, Decree On Renewal of Religious Life, 1965.
8. Optatam Totius, Decree On Priestly Training, 1965.
9. Gravissimum Educationis, Declaration On Christian Education, 1965.
10. Nostra Aetate, Declaration On the Relation Of the Church to Non-Christian
    Religions, 1965.
11. Dei Verbum, Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation, 1965.
12. Apostolicam Actuositatem, Decree On the Apostolate of the Laity, 1965.
13. Dignitatis Humanae, Declaration On Religious Freedom, 1965.
14. Ad Gentes, Decree On the Mission Activity of the Church, 1965.
15. Presbyterorum Ordinis, Decree On the Ministry and Life of Priests, 1965.
16. Gaudium et Spes, Pastoral Constitution On the Church In the Modern World,1965.

2600 bishops and Cardinals, two Popes, 16 documents, 4 constitutions two of which are entitled dogmatic; while it did not define new dogma it certain clarified Church teaching on a huge number of topics, and was most definitely the most important event of the magisterium in the last 100 years.

Lumen Gentium explicitly reaffirmed papal infallibility, so as to avoid any doubts, expressing this in the following words:

This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion. And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.

Thank you for this list. Pax.