Is a person still a Catholic if they don't agree with everything that the Catholic Church teaches?

[Rozellelily]

I am a baptised Catholic and probably more a cultural Catholic than a devout Catholic.
I do believe in the Real Presence, Infallibility of the Pope, Men as priests, Saints, Love of God and neighbour, and probably some other things which I can’t think of at the top of my head.

But there are thing which I also don’t believe in such as the prohibition of birth control and condoms in countries of poverty and ignorance. I don’t believe that they should be the “ultimate end”, but I find it acceptable as one tool while helping the population to “raise their consciousness” about not sleeping around etc. I don’t find it acceptable to just leave people in poverty and turmoil with many children that they cannot feed. Or even worse, if they then do abortions or spread Hiv to innocent people. I understand that Catholic organizations do a lot in these countries -perhaps more than anyone else- but there is still more people in need vs help available.
But, I am also not one of these people either that think it is right for “medical organizations” to go around sterilizing women in third world countries or giving them implantable birth control with dangerous side effects etc. Their “solution” is agenda based!

I also don’t believe in hell as a “physical place”.

I see a lot of beauty in the Catholic Church but I also see some “ugliness”. By “ugliness” I mean, within my culture there a lot of what I refer to as “big Catholics”. Very devout people but who can be judgemental of others.

I sort of resist getting too involved or “too catholic” because I perceive -ironically- that I lose track of Jesus and love of neighbour. Because there is a focus to be Catholic means believe this rule, believe that rule etc. There’s all that talk like if you don’t believe this you can get kicked out or don’t believe that etc. Well, I want to follow Jesus and not be part of “some club”.

Any time I make myself try to believe something that I don’t believe in, (such as the things above), to be part of “the club”, or perhaps even out of fear, I feel I am going against my conscience. I am “believing” something because it is said to be catholic one has to believe these things, and not because I truly feel this way.
When I go against my beliefs because the “church is right and I should believe this”, I feel I start turning into one of those inflexible, dogmatic, legalistic and intolerant people. Catholic can sometimes become a culture and I’m not sure that is a good thing.

Do I just go around saying “birth control in third world countries is wrong because catolic says its wrong” even though it sounds heartless, insensitive, detached from problems?

I don’t know half as much about religion as some people, but I wonder is it possible to become like a pharisee but in a catholic sense- or is there no such thing?

Sorry for the “long rant”.

So, anyway, what happens when a person does not see any other religions as having any “higher truth” than Catholic, but at the same time has their own mind and can’t be on board with certain views of the catholic church? Are “we” still catholic or considered not catholic?

 

[Aulef]

The person only ceases to be Catholic when excommunicated…

However, denying dogma or teaching considered certain is a sin (mortal in many cases) and depending on the subject it can lead to excommunication.

It is important to trust the Church teaching and have faith in it even if sometimes we don’t understand it.

 

[Rozellelily]

However, denying dogma or teaching considered certain is a sin (mortal in many cases)

See, even just with that sentence, doesn’t that just cause people to “agree” out of fear?
I.e, noone wants to think they are in mortal sin, so it seems a bit of catch 22 - go against ones conscious and become fundamental/intolerant, or be in mortal sin.
They are not great options either way. And what about when a “non believer” asks us why we believe what we do (such as in the example I mentioned), do we just say “I don’t know, because the CC says so and I trust it”?
Naturally, I think this will just make catholics look bad to others and like mindless sheep and won’t bring people to the catholic faith.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Short answer (and I am going to be keeping my answers short for the remainder of the year, as I refuse to waste time on extended explanations when, unless something changes, all of my work — and everybody else’s — is just going to disappear at the end of the year):

Solemnly defined doctrinal teachings, most of all dogmas, cannot be denied without becoming a heretic.

Moral teachings, such as the teaching on contraception, to my mind would not make you a heretic per se, but putting the absolutely most charitable slant on it that I possibly can, dissent from them would be highly temerarious (not to mention “proud”) — basically saying “I know what is right and what is wrong, better than the Church does, better than 2000 years of consistent, perennial magisterial teaching, better than any Pope or any of the countless moral theologians who have agreed on this throughout the ages”.

And a lot of people “dissent” simply because they want to do what they want to do.

 

[Vico]

…
Are “we” still catholic or considered not catholic?

A person that is baptized Catholic or later received into the Catholic Church is Catholic, even though not practicing. What is most important is to maximize the likelihood of being in a state of sanctifying grace at all times so that merit may be gained and ultimately die in a graceful state. One that separates voluntarily from the Catholic Church or does not accept certain teachings is in a grave state of error.

The Profession of Faith developed by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith includes:

“With firm faith, I also believe everything contained in the word of God, whether written or handed down in Tradition, which the Church either by a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium sets forth to be believed as divinely revealed.”(4)
…
“Moreover I adhere with submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act.”(7)
…
I also firmly accept and hold each and everything definitively proposed by the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals, ”(10)

Ad Tuendam Fidem (18 May 1998) | John Paul II

 

[Aulef]

Aulef:

However, denying dogma or teaching considered certain is a sin (mortal in many cases)

See, even just with that sentence, doesn’t that just cause people to “agree” out of fear?
I.e, noone wants to think they are in mortal sin, so it seems a bit of catch 22 - go against ones conscious and become fundamental/intolerant, or be in mortal sin.

Yes, some people avoid sin out of fear and it is legit. In fact, fear in itself isn’t bad at all and fear if doing evil is good. Obviously, avoiding sin for love of God is the ideal.

They are not great options either way. And what about when a “non believer” asks us why we believe what we do (such as in the example I mentioned), do we just say “I don’t know, because the CC says so and I trust it”?
Naturally, I think this will just make catholics look bad to others and like mindless sheep and won’t bring people to the catholic faith.

When a non believer asks, there are good enough replies depending on the circumstances.

If you know the explanation, give it to them.

If you don’t know the explanation, tell them you’re still in process on learning and for practical purposes, you have faith in it. And once you have the answer, make sure to share with them.

Besides, it is convenient to explain to them the meaning of the word ‘faith’ (firm adhesion of intelligence to an evidence) and that everyone has some sort of adhesion similar to faith in their practical lives. For instance, when buying a 2013 wine, we can’t certify for ourselves the wine is from that year, so we put our ‘faith’ in what is written on the label.

 

[AdamP88]

So, anyway, what happens when a person does not see any other religions as having any “higher truth” than Catholic, but at the same time has their own mind and can’t be on board with certain views of the catholic church?

Your baptism is essentially what makes you catholic. But I guess you would say that you are not fully “in communion” with the Church if you don’t agree with certain teachings.

You know you are required to study and attempt to come to a better understanding and align your will to that of the church in this case?

 

[Maximian]

What’s the point of saying you are Catholic if you don’t agree with Catholicism? It’s like saying Im a Communist but I don’t agree with abolishing property.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

What’s the point of saying you are Catholic if you don’t agree with Catholicism? It’s like saying Im a Communist but I don’t agree with abolishing property.

Our entire society, and the spirit of the world — the Weltgeist — says that we may believe and think whatever we want to. To submit one’s mind, heart, will, and soul to some entity outside of oneself — to say “they are right, I am wrong, and I shall make their ideas and wishes my own, despising my aboriginal, primordial error and seeking only objective truth” — is both contrary to human nature, and utterly counter-cultural.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

What’s the point of saying you are Catholic if you don’t agree with Catholicism? It’s like saying Im a Communist but I don’t agree with abolishing property.

A lot of people don’t view it as an all-or-nothing proposition. They may say they’re Catholic because they agree with the Church on most issues but dissent on a few.

 

[Rozellelily]

And a lot of people “dissent” simply because they want to do what they want to do

I’m sure this is right and I fall into this category too sometimes like many people, but when it’s related to other people, how can people be expected to go against their good conscience/hearts?
If agreeing with everything that the Catholic Church states, makes me someone that I cannot live with being, then the reality is that many people my age and much younger will fall away from the Catholic church. I can’t in good conscience, say to poor people in Thailand or Phillipines for example, “you should not use contraception and keep having many children that you can’t actually feed”.
This is not loving either. For the Catholic church to just tell them to be abstinent -let’s be realistic- it’s hard enough to convince educated people in first world countries to do this, let alone people in poverty and limited education.
I believe the Church needs to provide “real life” solutions or people will become more and more disillusioned.

The Catholic Church does A LOT in poor countries, this in indisputable, but there are many many struggling poor people. There are even women in Thailand who were sexually abused by western “tourist” and now sell their own children into this to buy food for their kids. This is horrific. It’s all they know. Victimization. And when they can’t afford food then…

The catholic church needs to provide real life solutions. If they don’t, then I promise you that medical organisations and NGOs etc will come in and do some things, and sometimes their “solutions” are much more opposing catholic churches views than what I speak of.

A view about contraception cannot be the same in a rich country like USA, vs a poor country like Phillipines, or a country in Africa.

 

[Rozellelily]

Maybe that makes me proud and without humility, but also God did not give me a brain for no reason

Also, what about when the catholic church changes something like the thing about Amoris Laetitia ? I.e, the teaching never changed but the Pope stated that in some instanced divorcees could receive communion. The catholic church could clearly see that it was trying a good number of people away.

I am not suggesting that the belief about birth control would ever change in entirety/fundamentally, but hypothetically if the Catholic Church ever did “soften” its approach regarding condoms specifically in the poor countries, I would not want to be like one of those people that had got so attached to CC dogma, that when something “new” was stated, (not so much new, but in a fuller understanding), it shook my foundation and I could not accept/cope.
I hope that I am explaining it at least somewhat clearly.

You know there actually are some Catholics that when Pope Francis spoke about Amoris Laetitia* this way, they were actually angry or believe the Pope was wrong and they could not accept it, because they have rigidly built their belief system/foundation on the dogma.
It is like these people internally felt “you mean I have based my whole foundation on something, and now you want to say something else”?

Perhaps I am too proud, but I don’t know which is worse -pride or rigidity…

Pope denounces 'rigidity' as he warns of Christian decline | National Catholic Reporter

 

[FrankFletcher]

The person only ceases to be Catholic when excommunicated…

This is false. Those who are excommunicated do not stop being Catholic.

 

[Rozellelily]

But is life so black and white?
For example there are people in China that privately are happy with their communist party but don’t agree with everything it does.

Also, I believe in Catholic traditional views about men and women, about the genders being different, and I believe that feminism (in the extreme version) is not good for societies.
So if not Catholic, what should I be…Muslim?

 

[FrankFletcher]

OP, I’d wager that the majority of Catholics struggle with at least one Church teaching. That doesn’t mean it’s a permanent state. You can struggle, want to be obedient, and work through the issue over time by praying, learning the faith, etc.

ETA: do you believe all that is included in the creed?

 

[whatistrue]

I can’t in good conscience, say to poor people in Thailand or Phillipines for example, “you should not use contraception and keep having many children that you can’t actually feed”.

Those aren’t the only choices, and you know it. And absolute abstinence is not necessary either. Chastity is, however, and it actually is realistic to expect it. No, not every single person will follow it, but the expectation is realistic.

 

[Rozellelily]

I think this pretty much sums it up. However, I don’t think I am alone in this, and I would say that the majority of people from my culture are the same way. Particularly people under 50.
The only difference is that I “think too much”, whereas many other people simply don’t think about it!

You know you are required to study and attempt to come to a better understanding and align your will to that of the church in this case

I understand somewhat. Part of it is purely my own fault when I don’t study it (i.e., from laziness or disinterest), but then when I do try to read things, some things feel so true, but then I feel uncomfortable with some other things and then I end up at like a cross-roads, thinking do I just be a “cultural catholic” like many others, or do I not “be” catholic. Because I agree with Jesus teaching of love of God and neighbour, but I can’t agree with some of the “other rules”.

And to be honest, sometimes I also see religion as causing some negative things in the world. Such as people fighting who is right etc (both in words, and physical fighting), but I see following the commandment of love God and neighbour as bringing peace and love instead of discord.

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry but I am not understanding what you mean by "Those aren’t the only choices, and you know it."

Are you referring to natural birth control methods? If you are, then great, that is an even better option than artificial birth control. But if this is the case, and I can only presume that Catholic organizations teach it to the women in poor countries, why do these situations keep happening?
Is it due to the lack of education in those countries, or a lack of acceptance of even natural methods etc?

Btw, I love large families. I am not saying there is some issue with large families. I actually think the opposite. My context is referring solely to families in awful poverty in poor countries.

 

[whatistrue]

Sorry but I am not understanding what you mean by

Just that you phrased your statement as a simple choice between birth control (which I assumed meant artificial birth control since you mentioned earlier about distributing condoms as part of it) and having lots of kids. There is always chastity, which is actually reasonable, and is not the same as absolute abstinence, and NFP, some methods of which I understand do not require the use of any costly technology and so could be used by impoverished people, or what equipment might be necessary (possibly a thermometer of adequate precision and a method of keeping the needed information like log books) could be economically supplied by a charitable organization. But the main thing I meant to get across is that controlling one’s desires is not an unreasonable request of anyone. I do know from personal experience that it can be extremely difficult, but it is not unreasonable.

 

[stpurl]

A good conscience will align itself with Catholic truth.

Let me explain. One’s heart (I.e. feelings) can very strongly influence us into believing something false, for a huge variety of reasons. Does this mean then that we must ‘obey’ this supposed conscience which is built on feeling? No, we must also utilize right reason. In the vast majority of cases where Catholics dissent from Church teachings the original ‘point of departure’ is based on feelings/emotionalism. And the attempts to explore ‘reason’ are actually attempts to justify the feelings. Make no mistake, human beings have an almost infinite ability to ‘justify’ themselves, to call black ‘white’, to find an excuse where they are ‘exempt’ from mores or morals.

An example: Those who ‘dissent’ from the Church because of its supposed wrongs regarding sexual teachings. in 99 out of 100 cases the original ‘dissent’ starts with the person, for himself/herself or a loved one, becoming emotional over a situation: Wanting to have sex outside of marriage, knowing a homosexual couple who wish to ‘marry’, wishing to divorce and remarry, etc.

So the ‘feelings’ are the main impetus to dissent from teaching.

What to do?
Look for ‘experts’ who support dissent (ie. Father Martin) to claim that the Church ‘doesn’t really teach that you cannot do something, therefore you do it.
Look for something to criticize in the Church itself (“THey have clergy sex abuse, how can they tell us what to do when they’re so corrupt?). This allows you to ‘do as you please’ because either the Church has been ‘debunked’ to your satisfaction, or you can play ‘whataboutism’ or you can jump up on your high horse because all YOU are doing is ‘consensual sex” and not ‘abusing children’.
Claim that teachings in the church “changed’ and therefore the ones that are a problem to you, “can and should change too.’ You are just taking the initiative. The Church will catch up with you. So you’re fine.
Claim that teachings were wrongly understood from the start, and that what you’re doing now, ‘is what was meant’. After all, YOU are Church, right?
Claim that Jesus ‘never said X”, therefore you can do X.

Seriously do any of the above actually involve you truly exploring the Faith, or are they all reactions to emotions and attempts to justify or wiggle your position, not using ‘reason’ at all?