Is a person still a Catholic if they don't agree with everything that the Catholic Church teaches?

[Rozellelily]

Thank you @FrankFletcher

That give me some comfort
Yes, I believe in the creed.

I am probably not a very obedient woman by nature. I can be opinionated.
Definitely not in an loud obnoxious way like some people today who feel the need to force their opinions onto others etc, but generally I was raised to use my own mind and have own opinions.
I balance that with more feminine qualities though.

 

[Rozellelily]

I think you are right and I can’t “argue” with your reasoning, but at the same time humans are emotional beings and we were given emotions for a reason.
Emotions may lead astray sometimes, but don’t emotions also lead to compassion?
And what about our minds- has God gave them to us for no reason if we are to be docile to everything the Catholic Church states without any thought or consideration on our parts?

Even when I do agree with the Catholic Church on something, it can be hard sometimes in society.

For example, I don’t agree with IVF, but literally “everyone” else in Australia does, like perhaps at least 80 % or even much more.
I.e., it’s perceived as the “normal” step that people do when they can’t conceive a child, and the only socially acceptable reaction is to have sympathy for their IVF story, support it, ask how it’s going etc.

So, I don’t state my view openly, because it is so unheard of or “taboo” that anyone would not agree with it. People will perceive you as an awful person, some backward bigot, cold hearted and having no empathy for a couple who couldn’t welcome a child etc…

 

[Rozellelily]

can and should change too.’ You are just taking the initiative. The Church will catch up with you. So you’re fine

And I laughed at this one, because maybe that is how I am thinking sometimes.
But at the same time, isn’t it also a fact that the Church does change sometimes?
For example, up until the 60’s I think(?), the Catholic Church used to have a list of prohibited books but now they don’t do that anymore. So why is this please?
So, at the risk of this sounding arrogant, couldn’t it be that I (and of course not just I), could actually just be “ahead” in some things?

 

[whatistrue]

I was raised to use my own mind and have own opinions.
I balance that with more feminine qualities though.

As far as I am concerned using your own mind and having your own opinions has absolutely nothing to do with how feminine you are, or other unrelated qualities. Just look at the archetypal “Southern Belle” - the very definition of feminine while being as smart as anyone else in the room and opinionated as a judge, with a “whim of steel”.

 

[AdamP88]

. Because I agree with Jesus teaching of love of God and neighbour, but I can’t agree with some of the “other rules”.

This is the core of it though. You can either believe that Jesus was who he said he was. Or he was either crazy or a liar. If you believe in him, then you must realise that he founded the Church for a reason, to uphold the truth.

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things make you uncomfortable?

 

[hope]

You do not cease to be Catholic if your are excommunicated. Excommunication means that your are not to receive the sacraments.
The Code of Canon Law
Can. [1331] §[1] An excommunicated person is forbiden: to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever;

[2] to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals and to receive the sacraments;

[3] to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.
BUT you are still Catholic. A person can deny they are Catholic and claim to be of another faith but they never can cancel out Baptism which created an indelible mark on your soul forever.
To the OP
May I suggest that you do research as to why the Church teaches what she does?

 

[Aulef]

Yes, they do.

 

[Aulef]

It is true the mark of Baptism cannot be taken away, however being excommunicated means being cast out of the body of the Catholic Church.

Maybe this si a matter of definition whther what is a Catholic.

 

[hope]

The point of excommunication is to convince the person that his or her action was wrong, so that he or she may feel sorry for the action and be reconciled to the Church, and, in the case of actions that cause a public scandal, to make others aware that the person’s action is not considered acceptable by the Catholic Church…
The point of excommunication is often misunderstood. Many people think that, when a person is excommunicated, he or she is “no longer a Catholic.” But just as the Church can excommunicate someone only if he is a baptized Catholic, the excommunicated person remains a Catholic after his excommunication

Excommunication in the Catholic Church

 

[FrankFletcher]

It is true the mark of Baptism cannot be taken away, however being excommunicated means being cast out of the body of the Catholic Church.

Maybe this si a matter of definition whther what is a Catholic.

You might want to read on this topic before falsely pronouncing people as “no longer Catholic.” Your statements are still false.

 

[PrayForMe]

To go along with what hope states, one cannot really cease to be Catholic. Once you are a baptized Catholic, that baptism leaves an indelible mark on your soul which cannot be erased. And the Sacrament of Confirmation means that you are now considered to be in “full communion” with the Church. All excommunication does is forbid you from receiving the Sacraments and means that you are no longer considered to be in good standing with the Church. That does potentially have consequences for your soul, but it doesn’t mean you are “no longer Catholic”.

To address the question raised by the OP, I agree with what a few others have said in this thread - I personally have never thought it made sense to adhere to a religion but not agree with everything that religion taught. Religion is meant to act as one’s “moral compass” to guide them thru life, it is not just some collection of ideas that one chooses because it “sounds better than the alternatives” or “feels right”.

There are some things that the Pope or hierarchy might say that are not considered ex cathedra that we are free to disagree with. However, when something IS defined by the Church as an official teaching (in other words, a Dogma) we are bound to believe it. The Church explicitly states, for instance, that abortion is morally reprehensible and that any Catholic who obtains or assists in the act of one is automatically excommunicated. We are bound to believe that, just as we are bound to believe the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, among other teachings.

I also don’t believe in hell as a “physical place”.

Care to elaborate? I’m curious what your thoughts on afterlife are.

There’s all that talk like if you don’t believe this you can get kicked out or don’t believe that etc. Well, I want to follow Jesus and not be part of “some club”.

It goes back to the fact that heresy is a dangerous thing because it leads souls astray. It is, essentially, a lie, and we all know who the “father of lies” is. That’s why it’s necessary to have a universal set of accepted truths for what is the universal Church (the word “Catholic” itself translates as “universal”).

Having said that, you are correct that Catholicism is not some “club” that one has membership in. It is far more complex than that.

 

[Aulef]

So, what do you think makes a person a Catholic: a Baptism or a Baptized being in communion with the body of the Church?

 

[Aulef]

The point of excommunication is to convince the person that his or her action was wrong, so that he or she may feel sorry for the action and be reconciled to the Church, and, in the case of actions that cause a public scandal, to make others aware that the person’s action is not considered acceptable by the Catholic Church…
The point of excommunication is often misunderstood. Many people think that, when a person is excommunicated, he or she is “no longer a Catholic.” But just as the Church can excommunicate someone only if he is a baptized Catholic, the excommunicated person remains a Catholic after his excommunication

Excommunication in the Catholic Church

There are other sanctions that seem to fit more this description: interdiction and suspension (which actually seem to apply more often to the clergy).

But it is true that what you described happened under the current Canon Law in the past decades

 

[Montrose]

The person only ceases to be Catholic when excommunicated…

That is not true. Excommunication simply denies you access to most of the Sacraments but the Sacrament of Reconciliation is still available.
Excommunication means you are a Catholic in a state of mortal sin to which was attached the penalty of excommunication.

IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE NO LONGER A CATHOLIC!

 

[Rozellelily]

archetypal “Southern Belle

I love this comment. Thank you.

 

[Rozellelily]

The Church explicitly states, for instance, that abortion is morally reprehensible and that any Catholic who obtains or assists in the act of one is automatically excommunicated

I am definitely not for abortion, but I am surprised to hear about the excommunication part because I have heard of Catholics who have had abortions. In one case it was actually a catholic female obstetrician who had one.
And there’s some American politician, Nancy Pelosi, who is catholic and pro abortion I think?

Care to elaborate? I’m curious what your thoughts on afterlife are.

I believe it as being a separation from God in some sense, and the soul will be sorrowful of their decision. I don’t see it literal fire “horror”, and I don’t believe this view is incompatible with Catholic teachings, because Jesus often used parables and imagery to teach his lessons and make points.

I see the “literal fire” teaching as problemic for various reasons. Firstly the “literal fire and brimstone” Church sermons from when I was a child, and even much more so when my parents were children, in no way produced the “positive fruit” of bringing them or myself to a more sincere faith. It just caused turning away from the catholic church. These sermons just resulted in fear and mindless control. Even as a child in the 1950’s my father would “skip church” to climb trees etc, and then receive a beating when he got home (when someone from church informed of his absence). Of course, not unexpected because no parent wanted their child to disobey and go to hell. But did it create a love for the catholic church? A wish to follow it voluntarily?

I have also seen that one of the hardest things for the “hardline atheists” to grasp, is this literal burning hell. They see it as fear based reasoning, and I have to be honest, I actually agree.

Of course God is just, but He is also a better father than anyone, so it is some sort of very bizarre logic that would state “love God and neighbour”, be a peace maker and show kindness, never cruelty etc, and if you don’t then you will go to a place that does the very awful things that I tell you the opposite of doing? And it doesn’t matter if “we” say that God sends 'you" there, or say that you choose yourself to go there… it still ultimately does not make any logical sense. This “literal burning place hell” is really just built on some sort of fear and vivid imagery.

It goes back to the fact that heresy

I can understand heresy as in the sense of people teaching something contrary and misguiding others, such as when people create websites saying bad things like that the Pope is not catholic, and these sorts of things. But when it is a person who just within themselves can’t agree with something the Church says - the choice of mindlessly believe or you can be “kicked out”, then it can create a sense like a club. Am I doing this (religion) because I feel the truth is to follow Jesus teachings, or am I doing it from some fearful loyalty?

 

[Humility]

Because I agree with Jesus teaching of love of
God and neighbour, but I can’t agree with some of the “other rules“

Do you want to believe? Do you want to come into full communion with the Church by agreeing with all the rules? Wanting to, even when you don’t understand or even when you currently disagree with some of rules, is the first step. Then, you should say to the Lord, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” like the father of the boy possessed with a demon in Mark 9:24. When you ask for his help, and also ask the Holy Spirit to guide you, the Lord can change you so that the rules do make sense and you will want to follow them.

I’d also recommend spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament asking the same thing of our Lord if it is safe to do so right now where you live.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

And a lot of people “dissent” simply because they want to do what they want to do

I’m sure this is right and I fall into this category too sometimes like many people, but when it’s related to other people, how can people be expected to go against their good conscience/hearts?
If agreeing with everything that the Catholic Church states, makes me someone that I cannot live with being, then the reality is that many people my age and much younger will fall away from the Catholic church. I can’t in good conscience, say to poor people in Thailand or Phillipines for example, “you should not use contraception and keep having many children that you can’t actually feed”.
This is not loving either. For the Catholic church to just tell them to be abstinent -let’s be realistic- it’s hard enough to convince educated people in first world countries to do this, let alone people in poverty and limited education.
I believe the Church needs to provide “real life” solutions or people will become more and more disillusioned.

The Catholic Church does A LOT in poor countries, this in indisputable, but there are many many struggling poor people…

The catholic church needs to provide real life solutions. If they don’t, then I promise you that medical organisations and NGOs etc will come in and do some things, and sometimes their “solutions” are much more opposing catholic churches views than what I speak of.

A view about contraception cannot be the same in a rich country like USA, vs a poor country like Phillipines, or a country in Africa.

The Church cannot change its teachings, much less change truth itself, because those teachings are hard to follow, or because that truth is not agreeable to people.

To be a faithful Catholic and to be pleasing to Almighty God and to live and die in His friendship, sometimes you have to deny yourself, and do violence internally even to your most cherished and sincerely held primordial “beliefs”. If you feel like doing so will “make you someone that you cannot live with being”, as you put it, then you have to forget about yourself, and make God’s Will your own.

As far as the pathetic situation of people who are too poor to have children they cannot feed, I wish I did not have to say this, but they do indeed have to practice some kind of abstinence, partial one would hope, total if that is the way it has to be. God and His Church are merciful and pastoral towards people who cannot live up to the ideal, but the Church cannot be in the business of “giving people permission to sin”. Life is hard. Living God’s way is hard. Eternal damnation is much harder. Even if the sin is venial (due to reduced culpability), it is still sin, and misery and suffering are not the worst thing in the world — sin is.

I would look to the affluent countries to do everything in their power, to aid and correct the horrible conditions many of the world’s people live in. Wealthy Norway provides an excellent example of this, committing one percent of her gross national income to foreign aid.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Of course you should disagree with the Church is you have any sanity.

I rarely if ever flag posts, but I just flagged this one.

You could have made your very good points without the filthy language. That doesn’t fly here.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Of course you should disagree with the Church is you have any sanity.

The vatican believes they have holy penises that allow them to rape whomever they want (See Canon Law Reference) and that women don’t have souls.

The Australian canon lawyer and the sociologist published two documents. The first is a legal report entitled “Canon Law – A Systemic Factor in Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church.” (Free download from National Catholic Reporter) written for the Australian government. The second is the lay version “Potiphar’s Wife.” (Buy on line for real money). I verified the information with the author of the second book and the legal firm from the movie Spotlight. A third is “Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church; An Interpretive Review of the Literature and Public Inquiry Report” another free download through the Center for Global Research; School of Global, Urban and Social Studies, RMIT Both books thoroughly document how the vatican ORDERED the bishops to protect the pedophiles starting 100 years ago. They include more detail on the Pontifical Secret that Francis just abolished.

I was a 3-4 X/week,50 year plus, cradle Roman Catholic watching the pedophile crisis in horror, especially when the previous entity in possession of the vatican compared women who want to be priests to pedophiles. Then the PA bishops ordered all the priests to blatantly lie about PA Bill 1947 which extended the statute of limitations on pedophiles. I complained to my local priest; who handed out the "Catholic’ League’s Essay “Women’s Moral Descent” with its theme that men have the right and moral obligation to decide which women deserve to be raped. I called my daughter at college, crying, saying that the priests were depraved morons totally dedicated to worshipping their dicks. Her response, “Duh, Mom! I’m sorry you had to figure it out in such a painful way.

From what I can tell, this campaign was led by Philadelphia Archbishop Chaput (Slap You). - Archbishop Chaput is listed as a major supporter of Bill Donahue’s ‘Catholic’ League. - Bill Donahue’s opinion was the “the Bill had only ONE purpose - To Stick it to Catholics” - implying he believes pedophilia is right exclusive to Catholics. Bill Donahue is a believer in 'Catholic astrology. Archbishop Slap You has singlehandedly done the most to jeopardize Catholic Youth and their faith. He was just chosen to go to the vatican’s Youth Sin Nod
I will NEVER set foot in a Catholic Church again because I will LITERALLY BE DAMMED IF I WORSHIP THE GREAT PENIS IN THE SKY TO WHICH YOU MUST SACRIFICE CHILDREN!

Everyone who is complaining that the forums won’t be archived…just remember this post.