Is a proper understanding of the Trinity needed for salvation?

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Some say yes. Some say no. Is a correct understanding of the Trinity essential for salvation or not? Do those who have a different teaching of the Trinity worship a different Jesus? Im sure most of yall know what I already believe on this. All views welcome. Lets dig in! Peace 🙂
Actually if you are baptized in the name of someone, it is good sense to expect that you have some healthy understanding of him in whom you are baptized.

Yes, I believe a proper understanding is required. A proper understanding is not the same as a proper articulation though.

I believe every Christian have a duty to prayfully meditate on the Trinity. I have grown in Faith greatly by continuous meditation and contemplation. I feel that I have more integrity. Meditating on the Trinity is the first duty of the baptized for the simple reason that they are baptized in its name.

God bless
 
Yes but this is of course the non Catholic section of CAF where persons of various faiths can come to discuss our various beliefs and learn about different faith beliefs from each other. Hopefully in a rather charitable manner, without too much defensiveness and animosity. 🙂 The Apologetics section on the other hand for instance (Underneath it, it says Defense of the Faith, doctrines & dogma, historical controversies) probably is a great place to defend only Catholicism if one is inclined. But anyway I thought the poster you are referring to, did explain he/she uses the NIV or KJV mostly in arriving at his/her beliefs along with God given reasoning.
You right “TO DISCUSS OUR VARIUOS BELIEFS” you see the word “DIscuss” in there?

Problem is your not discussing any of you beliefs, Your just stating what you don’t believe about Christianity and somehow you think thats beyond confrontation. And everything has been charitable. I’m sorry you feel that way and “think” you are beyond confrontation. But you are Not beyond confrontation, especially with a heretical Christian belief.

And where is the NIV KJV he/she posted since you seem to want to defend this person? I seemed to have missed that. Please refer me to that post.🤷

When you come here and say, I don’t believe what you believe, and as I said, and you can believe in the pet-rock if you chose, and thats fine with me. But I am going to ask to why. And what proves your point. And if you decide to go with Blind Faith, we shall leave it with than which I have above. Which you also have already chosen to do.

Otherwise have a great life… But, I find it facinating that anyone should come here and actually believe there point of view is beyond confrontation. Why should it be? Maybe you have some knowledge the rest of the world would like to hear, which will lead us all to a greater Salvation?

Your not beyond confrontation to the question of “why”. The only place this exists is in ones own mind.

That thinking leads to control, dictatorships, cults, slavery. On the contrary you should want to put your own thinking to the test, so your not hoplessly condemned to a destructive theory in thinking without it being tested. Or share your Grand philosophy will us all?

God Bless:)
 
To deliberately reject the teaching of the Church is the same thing as to reject Christ.
Thats it Bro, and if you do reject the Father, Son and HS, I for one would like to know why?

We live in a very fast pace world today, maybe someone has a “New Truth”. Please do share it with us.🤷
 
Just wondering (and a bit off-topic here).
Which “Christian” Churches don’t believe in the Trinity? As you say the list’d be shorter?

Jehovah’s wittnesses, SDA (?), LDS, Uniterian Churches, Oneness Churches.
Any other?
— QUAKERS and SHAKERS?!:eek: (just read that here.)
Its not off topic my friend. It cuts to the heart of the matter. Is it imperative, we believe what the Church has taught for 2000 years or not. The J.W.s, the Latter Day Saints, and as we are learning the Adventist all have a different view of the Trinity than has been taught by the Church for 2000 years. I think you ask a fair question, that can be added to this. Im pretty open when I start a new thread. I like every avenue explored. Peace 🙂
 
Actually if you are baptized in the name of someone, it is good sense to expect that you have some healthy understanding of him in whom you are baptized.

Yes, I believe a proper understanding is required. A proper understanding is not the same as a proper articulation though.

I believe every Christian have a duty to prayfully meditate on the Trinity. I have grown in Faith greatly by continuous meditation and contemplation. I feel that I have more integrity. Meditating on the Trinity is the first duty of the baptized for the simple reason that they are baptized in its name.

God bless
I agree. 👍
 
“dzheremi…like Hesychios, I don’t think we actually can understand this mystery) as part of seeking salvation.”

But you do “accept” it as required belief for Salvation? Complete understanding isn’t needed for salvation, what is needed, is to acknowledge it is in deed a fact and taught since day one in Christianity. To understand the Trinity in full is impossible, because you would need to fully comprehend God. We fail at this point.

To acknowledge the existance is a very different point of view.

Thanks for the Book suggestion, God Bless.
 
In your belief “likely” being the key there. In mine I don’t presume to know who is likely not to go to heaven. I’m glad Christ gave me Matt 7:1 for instance so I can leave who is likely not to go to heaven to the judgement of Him.
No presumption, its Bible. John 11:25-26. and while referring to Matt 7:1 you might want to read that chapter closer especially 7:22-23.

You have alluded to your “faith and belief” is that not reduced to presumption here? In this sentence.

“In mine I don’t presume to know who is likely not to go to heaven.” On the flip side of the coin do you presume to know who “will” go to heaven and how they will arrive and through what procedure?

Inquiring minds really want to know.😉
 
My friend, may I respectfully suggest that you may not be asking the question correctly?

In That God is a TRINITY it is necesary to make this essential clairification.** WHY **Because Salvation Flows Through Jesus Christ, via the Holy Spirit; as directed by God the Father.

Matt. 3: 13-17 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus** 2nd. Person of the Trinity]** was baptized he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him; **The Holy Spirit: 3td. person of the Trinity] **[17] and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” [1st. person of the Trinity]

Because God is ONLY “ONE”, but three different and distinct Persons, that share the SAME [ONE] Divine Nature; salvation is always and everytime by the ENTIRE GODHEAD; [Trinity], and cannot be attributed to any single person of the Trinty. Each has a ROLE to play in our salvation; and YES; beleif in God is a necessary element in the normal process of Salvation.

God Bless,
PatThank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You would be correct, in that I had somewhat of a hard time phrasing this question. Your help is most welcome. I only have a high school education. (im sure it shows…:p) Any help from other more educated Christians is most helpful. Thank you. Peace 👍
 
First off, lets look simply at God and Jesus Christ being one of the same, shall we? Since re-reading this seems to be the point of contention, not so much the Holy Spirit. So maybe I’ll keep it simple here. 😃

No theologian or historian would dispute the fact that Jesus Chist was the single most influential figure ever to walk the face of the earth. His actions, words, and miracles changed the course of History. He inspired entire societies, He redefined the standards of morality, He changed the course of Nations. He has bought to the table an unexplainable measure of purpose, peace and joy to the lives of Hundreds of Millions. And the Kingdom continues to this moment.

In His brief life Christ fulfilled HUNRDEDS of OT prophecies describing the birth, life and death of the messiah. Let alone the Miracles and wonders.

Lets put this in perspective as Dr Stoner, and Dr Robert Newman have with their calculations on probability.

The statistical probability of “one person” fulfilling just 48 of these detailed prophecys is… 1 in 10 to the 157 power. In case your not familiar with that number? Its a 1 with a 159 zeros after it. Christ completes over 3X this number. How is it possible? Luck?

And yes He claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of the Living God. Not only did He make perposterous claims, He backed them all up. For example in John 11:38-44 Jesus not only claims He can raise people from the dead, but He proves it. Jesus revives a rotting corpse in a tomb? Do you know anyone who can do this? Because I don’t. How about Peter fishing and catching nothing, till Christ encourages Him to try one more time in a place He suggests? Calms the Storm on the Sea? Heals, Exorcisms, Transfiguration and it just continues on with this guy called Christ.

Jesus then claims He is going to be executed, buried for three days and would then rise from the dead? So perposterous the apostles don’t even believe this one. That is until Christ appears in their midst after His resuuection. BTW Mary is the “only” one who never doubts His word for a moment. “Do everything He tells you” Thats what Mary has to say, smart advice I would say. Matter of Fact, he volunteers for the Cross. He basically said, “is that the best you have”?, “I’ll take that then”!

Christ coverts atheists? How about Dr Charles Payne, nuclear physicist with not 1 but 8-Doctorates, gives up his work trying to disclaim Christ and instead sets out to Prove Science is Gods work???

Einstein- believed we were living in Gods garden. And Albert spent a life trying to catch God in the garden.

All day we can go on with this, BEN HUR? You remember that? Another atheist who tears up His book “The Myth of Jesus Christ” then writes Ben Hur. Which btw this came as a result of his reseach into the Myth of Jesus Christ.

Now the Bible not once but several times Claims Jesus Christ is God. Now if you want the verse here I shall give you a “few”.

John 8:19

John 14:6-11 The way the truth and the life.[everyone heard this one]

John 8:12

John 12:46

Matthew 5:14-16

Remember now Christ is the Light of the World. Then read these verse’s.

Matthew 6:22-23

Mark 4: 21-23

Luke 8: 16-17

Luke 11: 33-36

Want to hear what scripture states about rejecting Christ as God???

John 3:18-19

John 5:39-40

John 5:43

John 12:48-49

Matthew 11: 16-19…To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in marketplaces and calling out to others. We played the flute for you, and you would not dance; we sang a dirge and you would not mourn. John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, “he has a demon”. The Son of God came eating and drinking, and they say, “here is a glutton and a drunkard”, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. But Wisdom is proved right by her actions. {re-read paragraph one}

What I really find astounding are those who chose to view Christ as insignificant and would claim their life is just as relevant? Well please share with us, what you have done lately, because I for one would be facinated to hear this. 😉

God Bless, GT

Oh wait, I forget the Blind Faith theory…

Maybe we should clarity the “Blind Faith” concept for some of our Brothers here. Which as I stated earlier. What is, isn’t what is, just because you say it is in Blind Faith. That also must be based on what you believe to be true. Which in essense is what?

Faith - is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing, which must come from somewhere or someone.

Belief- is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. Contents. 1 Belief, knowledge and epistemology; 2 Belief …an opinion or conviction: a belief that the sun will once again rise. 2 . confidence

So I propose that even if “Blind Faith” is you premise? That to must be based on something! Which could be as simple as Peer Pressure, a Parents Belief system, someone you admire. Point is… it came from somewhere.👍
 
Its not off topic my friend. It cuts to the heart of the matter. Is it imperative, we believe what the Church has taught for 2000 years or not. The J.W.s, the Latter Day Saints, and as we are learning the Adventist all have a different view of the Trinity than has been taught by the Church for 2000 years. I think you ask a fair question, that can be added to this. Im pretty open when I start a new thread. I like every avenue explored. Peace 🙂
Mhm, I see. So I am not off-topic this time! 😉

Does anyone know if the Quakers (and Shakers, as I assume that they are quite similar to the Quakers, 'though I’ve never heard of them before…) believe in the Trinity?
Maybe Publisher can answer that…

Actually, I am not really sure if Protestants like Mennonites or Baptists believe in the Trinity like the Catholics and Orthodox do.
Since, i.e., the Adventists are an offshot of the Baptists (one of the founders was a Baptist preacher!)

Hey, benidict, could you please write me per PM or so the exact definition how the CC (and maybe the EOs) see the Trinity? Then I could ask my pastor and then tell you.
 
Mhm, I see. So I am not off-topic this time! 😉

Does anyone know if the Quakers (and Shakers, as I assume that they are quite similar to the Quakers, 'though I’ve never heard of them before…) believe in the Trinity?
Do the Shakers exist any more? I am under the impression that they put themselves out of existence some hundred years ago, since they neither evangelized, nor reproduced - even their married members were required to observe sexual continence, in addition to being forbidden to drink any alcohol, or to dance. They made fabulous furniture, however. 🙂
Maybe Publisher can answer that…
Publisher could tell us what the Quakers believe about the Trinity.
Actually, I am not really sure if Protestants like Mennonites or Baptists believe in the Trinity like the Catholics and Orthodox do.
:confused:

My experience of Baptists and Mennonites is that they do believe in the Trinity.
Since, i.e., the Adventists are an offshot of the Baptists (one of the founders was a Baptist preacher!)
Baptists consider Adventists to be heretics, and go to great lengths to warn people about their teachings.
 
Do the Shakers exist any more? I am under the impression that they put themselves out of existence some hundred years ago, since they neither evangelized, nor reproduced - even their married members were required to observe sexual continence, in addition to being forbidden to drink any alcohol, or to dance. They made fabulous furniture, however. 🙂

Publisher could tell us what the Quakers believe about the Trinity.

:confused:

My experience of Baptists and Mennonites is that they do believe in the Trinity.
After reading this thread i really got confused about the Trinity! 😉 Therefore the question…
Baptists consider Adventists to be heretics, and go to great lengths to warn people about their teachings.
I know our pastor also did so when I asked him about the Adventists. 😉 But it’s correct that the SDA stem from the Baptists?
 
I have a friend who is Baptist, the only real difference I see is in Mary and the Sacrements. Of course the Mass is completely different also. But I have talked Bible many times with this man. In my life I have found that what does seperate us is illusion more than anything. Now it came time to Baptize his son. So I asked him why not just raise him Catholic [his wife is Catholic] his response was “oh no I don’t believe in that”. So I asked him what don’t you believe? His response was" I don’t believe I have to do all that you do". 🤷 We are good friends and its not my place so I left it alone.

The Quakers have been around since England and William Penn in PA. They belive in the Holy Spirit. They all just sit a room a wait for the Holy Spirit to move them. Thomas Merton gets into this a bit in his Autobiography " Seven Storey Mountain", his parents were Quakers.

The Shakers I’ll have to check it out. To this day I still see there furniture here and there in New England. Which has a distinct simple style to it, but well built for sure.

But the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I don’t know if Christ fits in with Quakers? Publisher will appear or when I see him here, I’ll send him a PM.
 
You right “TO DISCUSS OUR VARIUOS BELIEFS” you see the word “DIscuss” in there?

Problem is your not discussing any of you beliefs, Your just stating what you don’t believe about Christianity and somehow you think thats beyond confrontation. And everything has been charitable. I’m sorry you feel that way and “think” you are beyond confrontation. But you are Not beyond confrontation, especially with a heretical Christian belief.

And where is the NIV KJV he/she posted since you seem to want to defend this person? I seemed to have missed that. Please refer me to that post.🤷

When you come here and say, I don’t believe what you believe, and as I said, and you can believe in the pet-rock if you chose, and thats fine with me. But I am going to ask to why. And what proves your point. And if you decide to go with Blind Faith, we shall leave it with than which I have above. Which you also have already chosen to do.

Otherwise have a great life… But, I find it facinating that anyone should come here and actually believe there point of view is beyond confrontation. Why should it be? Maybe you have some knowledge the rest of the world would like to hear, which will lead us all to a greater Salvation?

Your not beyond confrontation to the question of “why”. The only place this exists is in ones own mind.

That thinking leads to control, dictatorships, cults, slavery. On the contrary you should want to put your own thinking to the test, so your not hoplessly condemned to a destructive theory in thinking without it being tested. Or share your Grand philosophy will us all?

God Bless:)
Gary Taylor, all I presume my friend is that my faith is on a lifelong walk. I do not declare infallibilty. But neither do I place blind faith in another human. Nor turn my conscience and reasoning over to another human. By their fruits we shall know them.

You have a good life too. God bless you as well on your lifelong journey of faith. And peace be with you.
 
Gary Taylor, all I presume my friend is that my faith is on a lifelong walk. I do not declare infallibilty. But neither do I place blind faith in another human. Nor turn my conscience and reasoning over to another human. By their fruits we shall know them.

You have a good life too. God bless you as well on your lifelong journey of faith. And peace be with you.
And you also!

God Bless you to, My Prayers are with you!👍
 
=Heliotropium;7579713]All Christians are called to be theologians regardless of their vocation. If you don’t know your faith how do you practice it or teach it to others? 👍
Now as to the OP’s question; is the understanding of the Trinity needed for Salvation? Well as one of our Orthodox brethren put it no one can really full comprehend the Trinity but to add to this we are required to understand it based on what has been revealed to us through divine revelation by way of The Catholic Church and Sacred Scripture. The Trinity is the most important doctrine of the Christian Faith! It is what makes us Christian. Can one be a Christian if they do not believe that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are Three Persons in One God? Is someone a Christian if they believe The Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God, but that Christ is was just a man? No, they could not be Christian.
Yet does God condemn people for Ignorance? No! If someone truly didn’t know any better and lived a life to the best of their ability, following to the best of their ability Gods will then no they will not be damned because they are part of the Church by desire. However if someone is willfully ignorant then the answer is yes. Willful ignorance can come from knowing the truth and denying it, or from not genuinely searching for the truth or having faith in it.
Nice THOUGH, BUT just a wee-bit over-the-edge:D

All of us are called to be Practicing Christians [AND CATHOLICS… FULLY Pacticing Catholics]… but not all of us are expected to be “experts.”

Your 100% correct about having an inability to teach something we ourselves don’t know.

Being “informed” need not require being “an expert.” if we know where and how to find the information we need.

God’s continued Blesings,
Pat
 
“And where is the NIV KJV he/she posted since you seem to want to defend this person? I seemed to have missed that. Please refer me to that post”

Are you even reading replies to your posts? It is back there, and signed “James” so there is really no need for the “he/she” unless you are trying to point out you don’t really care.

What I do not comprehend is, what have I written that anyone needs to “defend”?

I was a guest in your house. Invited, actually. Now I am beginning to wonder it this is how Custer must have felt at being invited to the Little Big Horn. At any rate, I find you a bit like a jackhammer at a formal wedding. The noise makes it hard for me to feel the love.

Sorry I stumbled in here (although I was encouraged to do so). I certainly apologize if anything I wrote created angst. I will find another way, and leave you to your discussions.

In keeping with the norm of a cleansing sign-off, permit me to leave these:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:5 KJV

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Matthew 25:40 KJV

James
 
Some say yes. Some say no. Is a correct understanding of the Trinity essential for salvation or not? Do those who have a different teaching of the Trinity worship a different Jesus? Im sure most of yall know what I already believe on this. All views welcome. Lets dig in! Peace 🙂
The Athanasian Creed, which is an exposition on the Trinity, ends with this-“This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.” 🤷
 
Some say yes. Some say no. Is a correct understanding of the Trinity essential for salvation or not? Do those who have a different teaching of the Trinity worship a different Jesus? Im sure most of yall know what I already believe on this. All views welcome. Lets dig in! Peace 🙂
Benidict, I’m fairly certain the Church has never taught that we will have a theological test at our final judgment. With that, and the Church’s teachings on the Salvation of those outside of the Church, including non-Christians, I’d have to say that yes, that Salvation is possible outside an understanding of the Holy Trinity.
 
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