Is a proper understanding of the Trinity needed for salvation?

[jmcrae]

I know our pastor also did so when I asked him about the Adventists. But it’s correct that the SDA stem from the Baptists?

In the sense that the people who founded it were members of a Baptist Bible club at the time - but I don’t think it arose organically out of Baptist teachings - I think what happened was, they were reading the Bible and decided that certain passages did not mean what they had been taught they meant, and so, after approaching Baptist leadership and finding their interpretations rejected, they left the Baptist fold and started up their own organization.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“And where is the NIV KJV he/she posted since you seem to want to defend this person? I seemed to have missed that. Please refer me to that post”

Are you even reading replies to your posts? It is back there, and signed “James” so there is really no need for the “he/she” unless you are trying to point out you don’t really care.

What I do not comprehend is, what have I written that anyone needs to “defend”?

I was a guest in your house. Invited, actually. Now I am beginning to wonder it this is how Custer must have felt at being invited to the Little Big Horn. At any rate, I find you a bit like a jackhammer at a formal wedding. The noise makes it hard for me to feel the love.

Sorry I stumbled in here (although I was encouraged to do so). I certainly apologize if anything I wrote created angst. I will find another way, and leave you to your discussions.

In keeping with the norm of a cleansing sign-off, permit me to leave these:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:5 KJV

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Matthew 25:40 KJV

James

Are you asking me if I comprehend this…

"I feel no more reason to confirm my belief than to ask you to do likewise. I generally use the NIV version of the Bible, although I am well versed in the KJV. Although I use the Bible for my belief, my God-given ability to reason compels me to use that gift when necessary…JAMES "

This post? Yes of course I read it:thumbsup:

Now if you have an opinion on what you actually believe the relationship of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit which is the “TOPIC of the OP” then lets continue. Otherwise I fail to see the point of your continued distraction of this thread.

Now let me right up front you so you really get this. There is no where in this thread have I not acted with respect to you or been uncharitable. You simply feel you are beyond confrontion? Why not just not participate in this particular post then if you don’t want to share your belief on the topic? If its too personal or whatever the case. Thats your choice my friend. But if you chose to continue to participate I will continue to direct you to the OP and ask you personal opinion on the topic. I seriously am sorry if this somehow offends you. But Its the topic of the OP here.

What is the point of scripture verse such as this?..

“Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye”.
Matthew 7:5 KJV

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.”
Matthew 25:40 KJV

James"

Is this directed at me? How does it relate to topic? Could you elaborate here on this verse’s and their correlation to topic?

How about this Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Are all ONE to YOU? How about the Original Topic? Remember that?

God Bless.

 

[jmcrae]

“And where is the NIV KJV he/she posted since you seem to want to defend this person? I seemed to have missed that. Please refer me to that post”

Are you even reading replies to your posts? It is back there, and signed “James” so there is really no need for the “he/she” unless you are trying to point out you don’t really care.

All you said was that you use the NIV - there is no mention of any verse that tells us that Christ is not God (as you assert, He is not).

What I do not comprehend is, what have I written that anyone needs to “defend”?

It would help if you would explain your reasoning. You said, no, people do not need to believe in the Trinity to be saved.

Is it because we are not saved on the basis of our understanding of theology? (ie: a baby can be saved without ever having heard of the Trinity) but those who understand it have the duty to believe it?

Or is it that you say there actually is no Trinity, for us to believe in? (And when you say that Christ is not God, it seems to suggest that you do not believe that Christ is a member of the Trinity, OR, you are using the term “God” to refer to the Father, and meaning to say that, while both the Father and the Son are members of the Trinity, and thus, both of them are God, the Father is not the Son, and vice versa.)

People are just asking you to clarify your meaning.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:5 KJV

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Matthew 25:40 KJV

James

Are you now making yourself to be Christ our Judge, and judging others according to His judgement?

 

[confusedius]

“Are you now making yourself to be Christ our Judge, and judging others according to His judgement?”

Now that, is scary! I guess I am fortunate it is not the Dark Ages. How could any loving Christian say such a thing? Poor form!

James

 

[jmcrae]

“Are you now making yourself to be Christ our Judge, and judging others according to His judgement?”

Now that, is scary! I guess I am fortunate it is not the Dark Ages. How could any loving Christian say such a thing? Poor form!

James

Well, if not, then I don’t see the relevance of those passages. I think you see yourself as a “victim” here,and you are using those passages to point yourself out as a “victim” of some kind of bullying.

You are not.

Just try to communicate more clearly, so that it’s easier to know what you are driving at. That’s all people want from you. They are not “picking” on you, and certainly, no one is robbing you, murdering you, or putting you into prison. They are just calling you to account for your words, and clarify your meaning.

 

[benidict]

Mhm, I see. So I am not off-topic this time!

Does anyone know if the Quakers (and Shakers, as I assume that they are quite similar to the Quakers, 'though I’ve never heard of them before…) believe in the Trinity?
Maybe Publisher can answer that…

Actually, I am not really sure if Protestants like Mennonites or Baptists believe in the Trinity like the Catholics and Orthodox do.
Since, i.e., the Adventists are an offshot of the Baptists (one of the founders was a Baptist preacher!)

Hey, benidict, could you please write me per PM or so the exact definition how the CC (and maybe the EOs) see the Trinity? Then I could ask my pastor and then tell you.

Hi Esdra. I can for a fact comfirm that the Baptist and Mennonites agree with the Catholics on the Trinity. I am a former Baptist, and my ex-wife is still a Mennonite. I Cannot answer for the Quakers. Publisher would be a good one for that. I would however direct you to the CC if you wish to learn our Teachings on the Trinity. If you still want the p.m. I can do this as well. I am going to be very busy for the next week, so you may need to be patient. Hopefully I dont get my silly self KIA. Peace

 

[Esdra]

Hi Esdra. I can for a fact comfirm that the Baptist and Mennonites agree with the Catholics on the Trinity. I am a former Baptist, and my ex-wife is still a Mennonite. I Cannot answer for the Quakers. Publisher would be a good one for that. I would however direct you to the CC if you wish to learn our Teachings on the Trinity. If you still want the p.m. I can do this as well. I am going to be very busy for the next week, so you may need to be patient. Hopefully I dont get my silly self KIA. Peace

Good to know!

After reading so much about the Trinity here, who believes in it and who doesn’t, I really got a bit confused.

But please, my friend, write me the PM mentioned. I am patient!

 

[Curious_Seed]

Some say yes. Some say no. Is a correct understanding of the Trinity essential for salvation or not? Do those who have a different teaching of the Trinity worship a different Jesus? Im sure most of yall know what I already believe on this. All views welcome. Lets dig in! Peace

For salvation, Romans 10:13 and not Romans 10:13 only if . . .

So, a correct understanding of the Trinity [how many of us fully do?] is not necessary to be saved; but once saved, edification of the Trinity and Scriptures may be necessary to remain saved.

 

[Publisher]

For me…the passage where Jesus tells the man to only believe and his son would be whole and the man said…“Lord I believe…help my unbelier…and Jesus raised him up…”

I do not have to understand nor do I have to confess a creed to receive His love, mercy and grace. It is a free gift…received in faith…“Lord I believe…help my unbelief!”

Isn’t that the whole point of the Incarnation? God is known in Jesus of Nazareth…our “Immanuel” God With Us.

 

[dzheremi]

We don’t confess the Creed to receive anything, Publisher. It is not a quid pro quo transaction, but an affirmation of the truth of the Christian religion as passed down to us from our holy masters and fathers, the apostles and the rest of the disciples.

 

[jmcrae]

Hopefully I dont get my silly self KIA. Peace

May the Angels surround you, and grant you success in your mission.

 

[Publisher]

We don’t confess the Creed to receive anything, Publisher. It is not a quid pro quo transaction, but an affirmation of the truth of the Christian religion as passed down to us from our holy masters and fathers, the apostles and the rest of the disciples.

Friend, I wasn’t suggesting that was the case…I was suggesting that to affirm the creedal statements ‘intellecutally’ is no guarantee one understands the deep historical developments of the Trinity. Simply to ascent to the creed…does not mean “salvation”…yet not knowing or understanding the creed does not exclude any from the love and mercy of God.

 

[XinMinny]

Gary and others,
This is an interesting study to me. I would like to ask a question, and please forgive if this shows my ignorance.
What do you all mean by “Believe in the Trinity?”

For example, I believe in the Father, the Son and the HS. Christians are baptized in the name of all three of them. I believe that in so believing, a person is not worshiping mulitple gods.
However, I have a hard time grasping some terminology. Why is it necessary to use the word “Trinity?” And, Gary, you have given sound Biblical evidence that Jesus Christ is referred to as “God,” although I think that explaining that is very difficult. I am not so aware of sound Biblical evidence that directly states the HS is “God.”
So, I choose not to use the word Trinity. I choose not to make a strong statement about the relationship between the Father, Son and HS.

This is a very different approach that the Athanasian Creed (of which I have a copy, btw). that Creed is a very well-developed declaration the relationship between Father, Son and HS.

So, my question: By your standards, do I believe in the Trinity?

And, how does that impact my salvation?

Please understand I am not looking for advice in how to acquire Catholic beliefs. I am looking to understand how you would view a person who chooses to be satisfied with having fewer i’s dotted and t’s crossed than is usual in Catholicism.

Thank you.

 

[jmcrae]

Please understand I am not looking for advice in how to acquire Catholic beliefs. I am looking to understand how you would view a person who chooses to be satisfied with having fewer i’s dotted and t’s crossed than is usual in Catholicism.

I’m not sure what is “usual” in Catholicism - most Catholics get through their day without worrying too much about the finer points of theology. I would say, your understanding sounds very orthodox, and certainly not less than what we would expect ordinary lay Catholics to believe in.

 

[PJM]

=benidict;7580830]thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut. You would be correct, in that i had somewhat of a hard time phrasing this question. Your help is most welcome. I only have a high school education. (im sure it shows…) any help from other more educated christians is most helpful. Thank you. Peace

thank you for taking it as i entened it

god bless you!

Pat

 

[Heliotropium]

Nice THOUGH, BUT just a wee-bit over-the-edge

All of us are called to be Practicing Christians [AND CATHOLICS… FULLY Pacticing Catholics]… but not all of us are expected to be “experts.”

Your 100% correct about having an inability to teach something we ourselves don’t know.

Being “informed” need not require being “an expert.” if we know where and how to find the information we need.

God’s continued Blesings,
Pat

Very true we are not all expected to be “experts” but rather called to find where truth resides (The Catholic Church, Sacred Tradition,Sacred Scripture,Saints,etc) and then to follow it with love and faith no matter what the cost.

Gods Blessing to you as well brother

 

[GTNJNightingale]

If we dont accept Jesus for what he claimed to be> which is God and man .than we dont accept him at all you cant say yes i believe in Jesus but under there terms. its just not the way it is. so there for it isnt Jesus or God that condemn our salvation but rather we condemn ourselves by non belief. see…the choice (free will) is still there…to believe and accept his teachings…or not to… Jesus(GOD) wants us to be with him forever. …as for the Church (Catholic) it is not “its” rules or teachings that you must have faith in Jesus and who he claims to be in order for salvation…rather it is Jesus himself s teachings…the Catholic church supports Jesus and the good word.

 

[geebob]

How long did it take the church to figure out the basic articulation on this? three or four centuries? For this reason, I have to think that there’s some leeway on this issue. Granted, it’s an extremely important issue and one of the most important and distinctive Christian doctrines. It gives us an explanation of how to understand that God is love. It isn’t enough to just identify him with an abstraction. He embodies love as a self contained community.

 

[GTNJNightingale]

If we dont believe in the trinity and what Jesus claimed to be, the second person in the trinity, then we can not say we believe in christ. it isnt any one church that proclaimed this teaching -rather it was Jesus who proclaimed this- ,founded the Catholic church on this teaching and many others. we need to foolow and OBEY these teachiing not for God but for our oun salvation. we can not allow ourselves to be blurred by any of the evil lies out there teaching otherwise.

 

[hn160]

The closes way to read and explain the Holy Trinity is to read the Athanasian Creed.