Is a sinful act greater than a sinful thought?

[irishpatrick]

I’m sorry, but you are in error. I will repost what I posted earlier:

Both of the bolded sentences above are thoughts/desires. According to Christ and the Church, a thought/desire can be a mortal sin.

I disagree with your personal interpretation. Even with your examples the rules for what constitutes a moral sin still apply. A person must be aware that there “murderous anger” is a grave situation and they must have the intent of caring out that act. They also must give it full personal knowledge and full personal ascent.

 

[rlg94086]

I disagree with your personal interpretation. Even with your examples the rules for what constitutes a moral sin still apply. A person must be aware that there “murderous anger” is a grave situation and they must have the intent of caring out that act. They also must give it full personal knowledge and full personal ascent.

It isn’t a personal interpretation. I also quoted St. Ignatius of Loyola:

There are two ways of sinning mortally:

First Way. The first is, when one gives consent to the bad thought, to act afterwards as he has consented, or to put it in act if he could.

Second Way. The second way of sinning mortally is when that sin is put in act.

Note that the “first way” does not involve the actual act.

Here is something else from Catholic Answers:

Q:“
What are some examples of venial sins?
”
A:
The Catechism describes two main types of venial sin. First, one commits venial sin when “in a less serious matter [than mortal sin], he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law” (CCC 1862). In other words, if one does something immoral but the matter is not serious enough to be gravely immoral, he commits only venial sin.

For example, deliberate hatred can be venial sin or mortal sin depending on the seriousness of the hatred. The Catechism explains, “Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm” (CCC 2303).

It could be that your personal interpretation is wrong.

 

[irishpatrick]

It isn’t a personal interpretation. I also quoted St. Ignatius of Loyola:

Note that the “first way” does not involve the actual act.

Here is something else from Catholic Answers:

It could be that your personal interpretation is wrong.

I fully agree that angry thoughts are sinful, yet my position is that that they are venial sins. Now, murderous anger is different because the person intends to take action, and if he is fully aware of the gravity and situation, he is likely commiting a mortal sin. Yet, none of your quotes can erase the rules of what constitues mortal sin, unless you are of the mind that the Catechism and the Church are wrong about that.

Let’s take the case of Cain and Abel–the first murder. Cain allowed simple jealousy to turn into anger, then the anger turned to hate, and then into murderous anger or rage, which resulted in the murder of Abel. Now, had Cain stopped himself along the path he was on, his sin would have been venial, not mortal. Yet, since he pursued an increasing ladder of anger and hate and jealousy, the result was the action of murder. Yet, he would not have commited a moral sin had he stopped at anger and then moved on without taking any further action. There has to be a willful act in order for mortal sin to exist, that is what the Church teaches. The willful act can be muderous anger, yet the only reason that would apply is because the person 100% intends on carrying out the act. Being simply angry with someone is not a mortal sin.

 

[lobster]

Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Thoughts are not commited acts, they are thoughts. I agree thoughts can be venial sins, yet I do not see any way thoughts can ever be mortal. If one thinks seriously about getting an abortion, it is a venial sin to think of doing such an act, yet it would not become mortal unless the person actually got the abortion…it is the commited act of procuring an abortion that constitutes mortal sin…not the thought of it.

Three conditions of mortal sin:

1. Grave matter
2. Sufficient reflection
3. Full consent of the will

Commission of the act is not a condition.

 

[irishpatrick]

Three conditions of mortal sin:

1. Grave matter
2. Sufficient reflection
3. Full consent of the will

Commission of the act is not a condition.

From the Catechsim:

*1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and **which is also committed *with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

 

[irishpatrick]

I say this with sincere respect for everyone here.

I really feel that literalism hurts our cause a great deal. By this I am saying that when we try to take an absolute stance based on a literal meaning of a Biblical text, we look ridiculous. This sort of position says that when a person becomes merely angry with someone else, they have commited a mortal sin, and that is utter nonsense imo.

It takes much more to rise to the level of being a mortal sin…mere thoughts, that every single person has at one time or another, is not enough. We must have full knowledge of the gravity, we must have full knowledge that it is a mortal sin (the act we are contemplating) and we must consent to the act. If we become angry and then allow that anger to flourish into a situation in which we are actually planning on acting on that anger, then yes that would fall into a mortal sin if the person was fully aware and gave full consent of their will.

Mortal sins are NOT as easy to commit as so many Catholics think. If they were, no-one would ever make it to Heaven…no-one.

 

[LoveJesus]

I do not think that fully wanting to have an abortion (if not for the law) is a “mere thought”. It is something that she would absolutely do if she could.

Another way to explain it: How would one feel in a country where it is known that every single person would murder another if not for the law? That to me would be more dangerous than living in a country where people don’t have that desire to murder regardless of the laws on it.

A few times I have gone to Confession because of thoughts that I’ve had, which I knew that if not dealt with, could lead to action. To my surprise (and dismay), on every occasion the priest told me that I didn’t need to be there and that it wasn’t “serious enough” to confess.

I’m not saying that mere thoughts that were not intended to come to fruition should be confessed. We all have those. I’m talking about serious thoughts that are just one law or situation or opportunity away from becoming action. Those to me are mortal sins.

 

[irishpatrick]

I do not think that fully wanting to have an abortion (if not for the law) is a “mere thought”. It is something that she would absolutely do if she could.

Another way to explain it: How would one feel in a country where it is known that every single person would murder another if not for the law? That to me would be more dangerous than living in a country where people don’t have that desire to murder regardless of the laws on it.

A few times I have gone to Confession because of thoughts that I’ve had, which I knew that if not dealt with, could lead to action. To my surprise (and dismay), on every occasion the priest told me that I didn’t need to be there and that it wasn’t “serious enough” to confess.

I’m not saying that mere thoughts that were not intended to come to fruition should be confessed. We all have those. I’m talking about serious thoughts that are just one law or situation or opportunity away from becoming action. Those to me are mortal sins.

I disagree. They are venial sins.

If a person has some truly horrible thoughts, yet turns from them, I have to believe that God actually smiles on that person for having listened to their conscience. It seems to me that since we are all fallen, we will all have thoughts that are not good, it is how we respond to those thoughts that matter. We all get angry, if we choose to take that anger out on someone with full intention, knowledge and consent, then that becomes a mortal sin…yet the mere thougt is not a mortal sin.

We have to be careful not to think everything falls into a category of being a mortal sin.

 

[rlg94086]

From the Catechsim:

*1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and **which is also committed ***with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

A thought, seriously entertained, is a committed sin. Lust has no physical act, yet it can be a mortal sin. Hatred is the same. Your understanding of “committed” is flawed.

 

[rlg94086]

From Matthew 5:27-29:

27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.

Sounds like mortal sin to me, but maybe Jesus didn’t mean it.

 

[irishpatrick]

A thought, seriously entertained, is a committed sin. Lust has no physical act, yet it can be a mortal sin. Hatred is the same. Your understanding of “committed” is flawed.

Friend, I think your view of mortal sin is flawed.

Lust is a sin because it is a giving of our minds towards a very real desire to be with another person. It is not the same as looking at a woman and feeling attracted to her. Lust entails an intention…not just a thought.

Thoughts alone are never mortal sins…they must be accompanied by an intent to take action…it is the second component that makes it mortal, without that it is venial.

 

[irishpatrick]

From Matthew 5:27-29:

Sounds like mortal sin to me, but maybe Jesus didn’t mean it.

Think about the passages you posted: “If your eyes causes you to sin…”

In that passage the person is guilty of the intent of commiting adultery, they are lusting after a woman–they want that woman. However, being attracted to a woman is not the same, having thoughts that a woman is attractive or even sexy is not the same thing. It is when we cross over from clear attraction to a heart-felt desire to place it into action…that is true lust and that is mortally sinful because at that point we intend to act. Take action, or fully intending on taking an action is a mortal sin. Again, literalism taken to an extreme is not the Catholic faith.

It is not that Jesus did not mean it, it is that you do not properly understand what Jesus intended…imo.

 

[rlg94086]

Friend, I think your view of mortal sin is flawed.

Lust is a sin because it is a giving of our minds towards a very real desire to be with another person. It is not the same as looking at a woman and feeling attracted to her. Lust entails an intention…not just a thought.

Thoughts alone are never mortal sins…they must be accompanied by an intent to take action…it is the second component that makes it mortal, without that it is venial.

We are in agreement. A thought with an intention is what leads a thought to become a mortal sin. This does not match what you wrote earlier.

If someone seriously considers murdering someone but doesn’t go through with the murder, they may have still committed a mortal sin because of the intent to murder before changing their mind. If someone gives serious consideration to abort their child and intends to do it before changing their mind, they may have committed a mortal sin, even though they didn’t have an abortion. IOW…the physical act is not required, as I have been asserting.

 

[lobster]

Friend, I think your view of mortal sin is flawed.

Lust is a sin because it is a giving of our minds towards a very real desire to be with another person. It is not the same as looking at a woman and feeling attracted to her. Lust entails an intention…not just a thought.

Thoughts alone are never mortal sins…they must be accompanied by an intent to take action…it is the second component that makes it mortal, without that it is venial.

You are contradicting yourself. Before you claimed that the act must be committed. Now you are saying you only need to intend to commit the act (full consent of the will). The latter of course is the correct answer. One still sins, even if invincibly prevented from performing the deed. The Church teaches that one can sin through thought, word, and deed.

 

[rlg94086]

You are contradicting yourself. Before you claimed that the act must be committed. Now you are saying you only need to intend to commit the act (full consent of the will). The latter of course is the correct answer. One still sins, even if invincibly prevented from performing the deed. The Church teaches that one can sin through thought, word, and deed.

 

[irishpatrick]

We are in agreement. A thought with an intention is what leads a thought to become a mortal sin. This does not match what you wrote earlier.

If someone seriously considers murdering someone but doesn’t go through with the murder, they may have still committed a mortal sin because of the intent to murder before changing their mind. If someone gives serious consideration to abort their child and intends to do it before changing their mind, they may have committed a mortal sin, even though they didn’t have an abortion. IOW…the physical act is not required, as I have been asserting.

Yes, it matches it exactly. Intent to take an action is a commitment…that is what I was saying all along.

 

[irishpatrick]

You are contradicting yourself. Before you claimed that the act must be committed. Now you are saying you only need to intend to commit the act (full consent of the will). The latter of course is the correct answer. One still sins, even if invincibly prevented from performing the deed. The Church teaches that one can sin through thought, word, and deed.

Intention is a commited act…that has been my point all along. If one intends to take the life of another, they have a commited heart and that is what makes it a mortal sin. If one simply holds anger at someone else, that is not mortally sinful because there is no intent to take it any further, there is no commitment in heart to raise the level to real action. Intent and commitment are nearly the same thing in the context of mortal sin.

Without real action, or the commited intent to act, there cannot be mortal sin.

BTW, of course I agree that we can sin in thought, word or deed…I disagree on the use of mortal sin for thoughts or words if a commited intent is not present.

 

[irishpatrick]

Intention to commit a grave act is a commited act in to itself. The very fact that a person would commit to doing something grave is what makes it morally sinful and the actual carrying out of the act is a simple extension of their commited intent. Once a person falls into a commited intent to do a grave act, they have fallen into mortal sin (unless of course there are valid reasons for invincible ignorance).

I think Catholics fall into traps with this and they get easily confused. They think even finding a woman attractive or sexy is somehow mortally sinful, when it is not. Lusting after that same woman with the commited intention of getting to know her or to even have a relationship with her is the step that would make it mortally sinful. The fact that a man finds another woman attractive and sexy is merely a funtion of how men are built, and is not mortally sinful at all, so long as the man never takes it to the next step of a commited intent to act. It might not even be venially sinful.

Example A: “Oh man, that guys makes me so angry, I could just punch him.”

Example B: “Oh man, that guys makes me so angry. Tonight I am going to go to his house and punch him.”

Example A is not a mortal sin, example B is.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, it matches it exactly. Intent to take an action is a commitment…that is what I was saying all along.

Well, it is what I have been saying all along, so we obviously have been talking past each other. I’ve never said that thoughts alone (i.e. without serious consideration/entertainment) are mortal. Here are some things you said which confused me:

irishpatrick:

I do not believe thoughts are sins. I believe actions are the only things that can be sinful, at least on a mortal level. Everyone likely commits venial sins of the mind, yet those are not mortal and I do not see how they ever could be.

It is what we do. IMO.

Note there was no mention of intention to act…only actions.

irishpatrick:

Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Thoughts are not commited acts, they are thoughts. I agree thoughts can be venial sins, yet I do not see any way thoughts can ever be mortal. If one thinks seriously about getting an abortion, it is a venial sin to think of doing such an act, yet** it would not become mortal unless the person actually got the abortion…it is the commited act of procuring an abortion that constitutes mortal sin…not the thought of it**.

This does not match your most recent post, which acknowledged that the intention to have an abortion could be a mortal sin.

Clarity is difficult to attain sometimes.

 

[irishpatrick]

Well, it is what I have been saying all along, so we obviously have been talking past each other. I’ve never said that thoughts alone (i.e. without serious consideration/entertainment) are mortal. Here are some things you said which confused me:

Note there was no mention of intention to act…only actions.

This does not match your most recent post, which acknowledged that the intention to have an abortion could be a mortal sin.

Clarity is difficult to attain sometimes.

Intent is a commitment…honestly, I thought that was both obvious and clear. I apologize if it was not. Without a personal commitment to do a grave act, there is no mortal sin. Thinking about it is not enough.