Is abortion a litmus test for someone to be a catholic?

[Sagefrakrobatik]

In other words is it possible to be both pro-choice and be a catholic? Why or WHy not? if Why not is it because of papal authority? In other words is it wrong because of exclesiatic teachings? To what extent are catholics to follow catholic law as regulated by both the Vatican and tradition? Suppose a pope were to be elected who ended up having strong incliniations towards the pro-choice movement, What would happen then? Do you accept pro choice friends catholicism legitamate?

 

[catholicbuckeye]

In other words is it possible to be both pro-choice and be a catholic? Why or WHy not? if Why not is it because of papal authority? In other words is it wrong because of exclesiatic teachings? To what extent are catholics to follow catholic law as regulated by both the Vatican and tradition? Suppose a pope were to be elected who ended up having strong incliniations towards the pro-choice movement, What would happen then? Do you accept pro choice friends catholicism legitamate?

I personally couldn’t see how someone could be genuinely Catholic and simultaneously accept the murder of an innocent, utterly dependent human being as merely a “choice.” It is an intrinsically evil act.

Why would you find it acceptable for someone to claim to be both pro-Choice and Catholic?

 

[Fergal]

The Church’s stance on abortion goes back to the first Catechism published by the Apostles themselves. It is also known as the DOCTRINE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES.

Look at Chapter 2:

Chapter 2.—The Second Commandment: Gross Sin Forbidden

1. And the second commandment of the Teaching; 2. You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, Exodus 20:13-14 you shall not commit pæderasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, Exodus 20:15 you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten. You shall not covet the things of your neighbour, Exodus 20:17 3. you shall not forswear yourself, Matthew 5:34 you shall not bear false witness, Exodus 20:16 you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. 4. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued; for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. 5. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. 6. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbour. 7. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.

So it is therefore impossible that one can be Catholic and pro-choice. It is also impossible that any Pope could come along and ‘legislate’ for choice even if he himself was strongly persuaded. the Holy Spirit, as He has done in the past will preserve the Church from all error.

 

[st_lucy]

To be a Catholic or any kind of a true Christian you’d probably would have to be anti-murder, don’t you think?

I don’t understand why people like to make this out to be a just because the church says you must be pro-life you should be. It would seem more like common sense and just being a good human, to realize that murder is just wrong, and the horribly cruel slaughtering of ones own child is just repulsive.

If more people would just stop and think of what pro-choice really meant and how saying that you are and support pro-choice how you are standing by and allowing someone literally tear apart a child limb by limb while they are still alive and able to feel every little agonizing pain of it.

I guess I am more boggled by those who say they are pro- choice and the idea that they hold that this kind of murder is okay.

PS sorry if I offended anyone due the graphic truth of abortion.

 

[AP4Him]

Yeah, how is this even percieved as debatable? At all? You can’t be pro-abortion/pro-murder, pro-theft, pro-adultery…we can go down the ten commandments if you all wish. I mean, really, how sick and twisted is our society that we can even argue this?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

In other words is it possible to be both pro-choice and be a catholic? Why or WHy not? if Why not is it because of papal authority? In other words is it wrong because of exclesiatic teachings? To what extent are catholics to follow catholic law as regulated by both the Vatican and tradition? Suppose a pope were to be elected who ended up having strong incliniations towards the pro-choice movement, What would happen then? Do you accept pro choice friends catholicism legitamate?

If the Pope said “I think it is important that all Catholics should wear odd socks on Tuesdays” then we would have a moral obligation to wear odd socks on Tuesdays, because he is the Pope.

However the rule against abortion isn’t totally arbitrary like that. It doesn’t take much moral insight to see that normally abortion is a bad thing. There are a few cases, like the Irish girl with a baby projected to live only a few days after birth who is in the news at present, where you could give a stronger case for abortion. Abortion that is also euthanasia is morally quite different from lifestyle abortion. However we also oppose euthanasia. Here a Catholic might say “the Pope is wrong on this one but it is his call”. However personally I don’t think the Pope is wrong at all.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Yeah, how is this even percieved as debatable? At all? You can’t be pro-abortion/pro-murder, pro-theft, pro-adultery…we can go down the ten commandments if you all wish. I mean, really, how sick and twisted is our society that we can even argue this?

by no means am i justifying abortion but it seems as if you guys are painting women who get an abortion with broad strokes. The image that is painted is a women who goes to various clubs and hangs out with friends who boast unashamedly about their abortions as if its something to be celebrated. I dont know about you but i would be willing to bet that abortion is the last alternative on a potential mother’s mind. Now this doesnt mean all women are as altrustic. True there maybe some women who get an abortion because they are disastified with some superfluous phenotypic characteristic such as eye color or sex but that isnt everyone. The point im trying to make is that when a women gets an abortion the motives and intentions behind WHY she got an abortion should be a part of the moral calculus.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Yeah, how is this even percieved as debatable? At all? You can’t be pro-abortion/pro-murder, pro-theft, pro-adultery…we can go down the ten commandments if you all wish. I mean, really, how sick and twisted is our society that we can even argue this?

The Church’s stance on abortion goes back to the first Catechism published by the Apostles themselves. It is also known as the DOCTRINE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES.

Look at Chapter 2:

Chapter 2.—The Second Commandment: Gross Sin Forbidden

1. And the second commandment of the Teaching; 2. You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, Exodus 20:13-14 you shall not commit pæderasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, Exodus 20:15 you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten. You shall not covet the things of your neighbour, Exodus 20:17 3. you shall not forswear yourself, Matthew 5:34 you shall not bear false witness, Exodus 20:16 you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. 4. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued; for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. 5. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. 6. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbour. 7. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.

So it is therefore impossible that one can be Catholic and pro-choice. It is also impossible that any Pope could come along and ‘legislate’ for choice even if he himself was strongly persuaded. the Holy Spirit, as He has done in the past will preserve the Church from all error.

2 points

1. Due to modern technology and medicine i can see why at that time abortion might be a problem. The fact that the mother is more suspetible to get some infectious disease blod clotting, or some other complication that isnt as easily treatable in the time of Exodus as it might be know.
2. Were is that verse in Exdodus about abortion?? I cant find it anywhere.

 

[st_lucy]

by no means am i justifying abortion but it seems as if you guys are painting women who get an abortion with broad strokes. The image that is painted is a women who goes to various clubs and hangs out with friends who boast unashamedly about their abortions as if its something to be celebrated. I dont know about you but i would be willing to bet that abortion is the last alternative on a potential mother’s mind. Now this doesnt mean all women are as altrustic. True there maybe some women who get an abortion because they are disastified with some superfluous phenotypic characteristic such as eye color or sex but that isnt everyone. The point im trying to make is that when a women gets an abortion the motives and intentions behind WHY she got an abortion should be a part of the moral calculus.

The point is there is no reason for someone to kill another person. period. And yes, i am willing to bet that the women who are having abortions might not be the party type, but the fact is too many children are being murdered everyday. When are all those who keep saying , the poor women, start saying those poor children who are having their brains sucked out and their limbs torn apart all while being fully aware of the pain.

 

[RyanL]

by no means am i justifying abortion but it seems as if you guys are painting women who get an abortion with broad strokes…The point im trying to make is that when a women gets an abortion the motives and intentions behind WHY she got an abortion should be a part of the moral calculus.

Couple of points.

1. It’s been said that a woman wants an abortion like an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw its own leg off. I would believe that in most cases this is probably true. The solution, however, is not to say, “If you want to gnaw your leg off, that’s your choice.” That’s not the loving, Christian thing to do. The Christian thing to do is work to eliminate the traps.
2. WHY is always a part of the moral calculus for Catholics. The subjective intent can either mitigate or exacerbate culpability. A good intent, however, can never justify an immoral act. I can go into more depth on Catholic moral calculus if you would like.
3. Some Canon Law for you to keep in mind:**
   Can. 1398** – A person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

** Canon 1364 §1**: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Points which follow from these canons:

a. Anyone who helps another procure an abortion is latae sententiae excommunicated. (Canon 1329, Sec 2.) This may include publicly promoting “abortion rights” or working to further the same agenda, depending on whether the level of cooperation rises to immediate material cooperation.

b. Anyone who denies that the intentional killing of an innocent human being is gravely immoral is likewise latae sententiae excommunicated – through heresy.

Additional points to remember:

For the excommunication to attach, you must first know the canonical penalty. (Canon 1323 give some other disqualifiers – they probably aren’t very significant for this discussion, but here they are.) If you didn’t before, now you do. So don’t help that side…um…ever.

Long story short…can you be Catholic and pro-choice?
Not really.

Further reading: Evangelium Vitae. Please read it. If you simply don’t have the time, skip to paragraph 62.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

1. Due to modern technology and medicine i can see why at that time abortion might be a problem. The fact that the mother is more suspetible to get some infectious disease blod clotting, or some other complication that isnt as easily treatable in the time of Exodus as it might be know.

To say nothing of the dangers to the innocent human being in her womb!

1. Were is that verse in Exdodus about abortion?? I cant find it anywhere.

The quote came from the Didache. Catholics include sacred tradition in the transmission of the word of God.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[DanteAlighieri]

by no means am i justifying abortion but it seems as if you guys are painting women who get an abortion with broad strokes. The image that is painted is a women who goes to various clubs and hangs out with friends who boast unashamedly about their abortions as if its something to be celebrated. I dont know about you but i would be willing to bet that abortion is the last alternative on a potential mother’s mind. Now this doesnt mean all women are as altrustic. True there maybe some women who get an abortion because they are disastified with some superfluous phenotypic characteristic such as eye color or sex but that isnt everyone. The point im trying to make is that when a women gets an abortion the motives and intentions behind WHY she got an abortion should be a part of the moral calculus.

As has already been said, motives are considered – when determining the extent of the sinner’s culpability. At no time does one’s intent, good or bad, alter the fact that abortion is inherently wrong – which is to say that it runs contrary to God no matter why you did it.

Peace,
Dante

 

[cor]

I think that if a Catholic were to go to his priest and tell him that he or she is pro-choice and is struggling with the Church’s position on the matter, the priest wouldn’t tell him/her, “Get out of the Church.” The priest would, hopefully, realize, that everyone on earth is on a spiritual journey and would try to dialogue with her and meet her pastoral needs and do his best to educate her on the rationale for the Church’s position.

Even if it be the case that the sinfulness of abortion is ‘de fide’ and thus its obstinate denial or doubt, heresy. It’s not the case that belief that abortion should not be civilly (i.e by the State) punished constitutes heresy. For example, those who believe that woman who procure abortions should not be punished are not in their belief guilty of heresy.

 

[RyanL]

I think that if a Catholic were to go to his priest and tell him that he or she is pro-choice and is struggling with the Church’s position on the matter, the priest wouldn’t tell him/her, “Get out of the Church.” The priest would, hopefully, realize, that everyone on earth is on a spiritual journey and would try to dialogue with her and meet her pastoral needs and do his best to educate her on the rationale for the Church’s position.

Oh, I quite agree, but that was not the question posed. The question posed is whether or not it’s a tenable position. And the answer is no, it’s not.

It’s not the case that belief that abortion should not be civilly (i.e by the State) punished constitutes heresy. For example, those who believe that woman who procure abortions should not be punished are not in their belief guilty of heresy.

Possibly. Banning abortion does not necessarily equate to imprisoning women for having them. See the above positions of punishing those who inflict the abortions. Personally, I would advocate some punishment for the otherwise-would-be mothers as a pragmatic matter, to discourage (1) crossing international lines to obtain abortions or (2) obtaining “back alley” abortions.

Again, I think the answer is not to say, to return to the analogy I gave a few posts up, “You’re caught in a trap? Gnawing your leg off is your choice.” That’s not Christian. The Christian thing to do is to say that no one is going to gnaw their leg off and we’re going to do away with the traps. Women deserve better.

However, it is absolutely intolerable for any society to permit the intentional killing of innocent humans. That is not law, that is an abuse of law. There’s no other good way to see it.

And in any case, if you think that you can vote for so-called “abortion rights” as a Catholic, you’re materially cooperating in helping others obtain abortions. If that’s the case, please refer to the canon law posted above.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Ilroy]

If the Pope said “I think it is important that all Catholics should wear odd socks on Tuesdays” then we would have a moral obligation to wear odd socks on Tuesdays, because he is the Pope.
Not true. If he thinks we should wear odd socks…that is just an opinion and we don;t have to follow it.

However the rule against abortion isn’t totally arbitrary like that. It doesn’t take much moral insight to see that normally abortion is a bad thing. There are a few cases, like the Irish girl with a baby projected to live only a few days after birth who is in the news at present, **where you could give a stronger case for abortion. **Abortion that is also euthanasia is morally quite different from lifestyle abortion. However we also oppose euthanasia. Here a Catholic might say “the Pope is wrong on this one but it is his call”. However personally I don’t think the Pope is wrong at all.

Also not true. Abortion is intrinsically evil whether for lifestyle, or to kill a baby that is going to die anyway. It is God’s decision to either take that baby after a couple of days or to let it live on longer, not ours. Euthanasia is not up for debate either. You’re either for life or you’re not.

 

[jack_hawkins]

1. I don’t see how opposition to abortion is a specifically Catholic as opposed to generally Christian stance
2. why single out one thing? IMO that sends out totally the wrong message, and is a sign of how fanaticism on this single issue has subverted the mission of the church

 

[DanteAlighieri]

1. I don’t see how opposition to abortion is a specifically Catholic as opposed to generally Christian stance
2. why single out one thing? IMO that sends out totally the wrong message, and is a sign of how fanaticism on this single issue has subverted the mission of the church

1. Because, unlike other Christian denominations, it is actually a dogmatic element of our faith, infallibly taught by the Church and contained in the Catechism.
2. We “single out” abortion because the sanctity of life is so much more important than equality, economy, ecology, or any other issue that hits the papers. For whom are we preserving the environment if we are killing millions upon millions of children?

What sends out the wrong message is people who claim to be Catholic in one breath but, in the next, disparage and demean the Church’s commitment (and that of its members) to preserving the sanctity of life. That tells non-Catholics and wishy-washy Catholics that it’s ok to “be Catholic” and “disagree with the Pope” – or whatever euphemism for apostasy you prefer.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Ilroy]

1. I don’t see how opposition to abortion is a specifically Catholic as opposed to generally Christian stance
2. why single out one thing? IMO that sends out totally the wrong message, and is a sign of how fanaticism on this single issue has subverted the mission of the church

And just what might be an example or two of how the Church’s teaching on the value of ALL life subverted it’s mission? We are here to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul and to love each other as ourselves. the killing of the most innocent lives doesn’t show much love at all. Fanaticism? If trying to follow God’s will is fanaticism, then you bet I’m a fanatic!!!

 

[jack_hawkins]

And just what might be an example or two of how the Church’s teaching on the value of ALL life subverted it’s mission? We are here to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul and to love each other as ourselves. the killing of the most innocent lives doesn’t show much love at all. Fanaticism? If trying to follow God’s will is fanaticism, then you bet I’m a fanatic!!!

yes, no fanatic ever thinks their fanaticism is not justified, and all Christian fanatics think they are doing God’s will
and you differ how exactly?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Because, unlike other Christian denominations, it is actually a dogmatic element of our faith

well actually you’re wrong there - that is precisely my point