Is abortion a litmus test for someone to be a catholic?

[Ferdinand_Mary]

NOTICE:

I have deleted several posts for being off-topic and otherwise uncharitable. Please keep the comments as charitable as possible, and please stick to the topic of the thread. A failure to do so will result in closure of the thread and possible suspension of posting privileges.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary

 

[cor]

That may be his private view but where can I see the Church says it is correct?

Benedict XVI praised his devotional works. This suggests that Benedict XVI considers him to be a Catholic in “good standing” even if he doesn’t agree with his views on abortion and the beginning of human life. If Cardinal Martini were so gravely wrong about it that he should not be considered a Catholic, then it’s hard to see why he is still Cardinal.

I have a question for jack hawkins:

When a zygote divides into two identical twins, is there continuity between the original zygote and one of the twins? If so, then that would suggest, if we say that ensoulment takes place with fertilization, that that twin retains the soul of the original zygote and a new soul is given to the other twin. If not, then it may be the case that the original zygote has by twinning actually died and that the two new twins have two new souls.

I tried reading some wikipedia articles on the matter but they were not helpful.

 

[fix]

Benedict XVI praised his devotional works. This suggests that Benedict XVI considers him to be a Catholic in “good standing” even if he doesn’t agree with his views on abortion and the beginning of human life. If Cardinal Martini were so gravely wrong about it that he should not be considered a Catholic, then it’s hard to see why he is still Cardinal.

That does not prove his words are correct or consistent with Church teaching.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

He can’t?

I hate to break it to you, but many men have sympathetic labor pains.
The decision to have children is one thing. The decision to kill the child is another thing entirely.

have you ever heard a guy leaving working on a “paternity Leave” Do you have any refutable sources to back up your claim? Not that i doubt you but this would at a new complex dimension to the debate.

 

[vern_humphrey]

have you ever heard a guy leaving working on a “paternity Leave”

Yes – the law which provides for such leave covers men as well as women.

Do you have any refutable sources to back up your claim? Not that i doubt you but this would at a new complex dimension to the debate.

shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=PAPAPOUNDS-01-31-06

Like human dads, monkeys gain weight when mate is pregnant

By LEE BOWMAN
Scripps Howard News Service
2006-01-31 00:00:00

A new study of two species of male monkeys confirms the tendency noted in many human dads to put on pounds when their mate is pregnant.

The study by scientists at the University of Wisconsin-Madison found that male squirrel-sized marmosets and cotton-top tamarins add roughly 10 percent to their girth when their mate’s expecting. The small monkeys are known for being monogamous and for males taking a larger role in parenting than is seen in most primates.

When men gain weight during a partner’s pregnancy, doctors consider it a "sympathetic pregnancy,’’ also known as Couvades syndrome, from the French word meaning “to hatch or incubate.”

The term covers a variety of me-too pregnancy behaviors among men, from changes in appetite and weight to “nesting” behavior and even nausea and sympathetic labor pains in the more extreme cases. Almost all the time, the symptoms go away when the baby’s born.

Abortion is murder – and neither labor pains nor the difficulties of raising a child justify murdering the child.

 

[MilesXpisti]

Benedict XVI praised his devotional works. This suggests that Benedict XVI considers him to be a Catholic in “good standing” even if he doesn’t agree with his views on abortion and the beginning of human life. If Cardinal Martini were so gravely wrong about it that he should not be considered a Catholic, then it’s hard to see why he is still Cardinal.

To be clear, the Holy Father praising someone’s work does not grant a nihil obstat to their personal theology. To be even more clear, none but the Holy Father enjoys the charism of infallibility, unless it be a bishop teaching in unity, of spirit and orthodoxy, with him. That there is controversy, this is obviously not the case.

As to why he’s still a Cardinal, he’s retired (and probably not insignificantly from pressure from the last two pontiffs). I would submit that the lack of censure is characteristic of the post-conciliar period, stressing collegiality over authority and visible unity over substantive.

 

[Ender]

It strikes me that no matter what arguments are made, the idea of being Catholic and Pro-abortion are not compatible.

I think this answers the original question.

How would you answer the question that asks: “Is not stealing a litmus test for someone to be honest?” I’d be inclined to respond by asking if this was some kind of trick question. The mindset that accepts abortion is different from the concept of Catholicism - it’s an oxymoron. The question would be more appropriate to ask of political parties: can one be pro-abortion and Republican? The Church is a fundamentally different kind of organization. The original question seems to miss that distinction.

Ender

 

[BillP]

I personally couldn’t see how someone could be genuinely Catholic and simultaneously accept the murder of an innocent, utterly dependent human being as merely a “choice.” It is an intrinsically evil act.

Why would you find it acceptable for someone to claim to be both pro-Choice and Catholic?

I reject the characterization of embyos and fetuses before a certain stage of development as human beings. Anything up to 40% of fertilized eggs (embryos) fail to implant in the uterine wall naturally, so it would seem that either God doesn’t consider it a life, or he is much more careless with Human life than we are led to believe.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I reject the characterization of embyos and fetuses before a certain stage of development as human beings.

So if I shoot a Jehovah’s Witness, I would be acting morally if I said, I reject the characterization of Jehovah’s Witnesses as human beings?

Anything up to 40% of fertilized eggs (embryos) fail to implant in the uterine wall naturally, so it would seem that either God doesn’t consider it a life, or he is much more careless with Human life than we are led to believe.

Anything up to 100% of fertilized eggs fail to survive more than 150 years – so does that mean none of us are human beings? Does it mean God doesn’t consider us to have life, or he is much more careless with Human life than we are led to believe?

 

[BillP]

So if I shoot a Jehovah’s Witness, I would be acting morally if I said, I reject the characterization of Jehovah’s Witnesses as human beings?

Haven’t we, as Catholics already been down that road? The Inquisiton, the Crusades, the Thirty Years War and whatnot? Didn’t work too well then, did it?

Anything up to 100% of fertilized eggs fail to survive more than 150 years – so does that mean none of us are human beings? Does it mean God doesn’t consider us to have life, or he is much more careless with Human life than we are led to believe?

I see your opinion differs from mine. Excellent! You see no significance to the biological fact that so many embryos don’t survive?

 

[LJN21]

I reject the characterization of embyos and fetuses before a certain stage of development as human beings. Anything up to 40% of fertilized eggs (embryos) fail to implant in the uterine wall naturally, so it would seem that either God doesn’t consider it a life, or he is much more careless with Human life than we are led to believe.

The difference is we have not done anything actively to keep them from implanting. Its Gods job to do that.

How many babies (and kids and adults) die of starvation or disease in 3rd world countries well God must not consider that a life.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Haven’t we, as Catholics already been down that road? The Inquisiton, the Crusades, the Thirty Years War and whatnot? Didn’t work too well then, did it?

Then why do you want to take us down the same road, killing the innocent for mere whim?

I see your opinion differs from mine. Excellent! You see no significance to the biological fact that so many embryos don’t survive?

The same significance I attach to the fact that so many people who make it through birth don’t survive beyond a 150 years.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

In other words is it possible to be both pro-choice and be a catholic? Why or WHy not? if Why not is it because of papal authority? In other words is it wrong because of exclesiatic teachings? To what extent are catholics to follow catholic law as regulated by both the Vatican and tradition? Suppose a pope were to be elected who ended up having strong incliniations towards the pro-choice movement, What would happen then? Do you accept pro choice friends catholicism legitamate?

No, one can not claim to be Catholic while publicly holding views that are contrary to Catholic Teachings.

Abortion is not the only issue, there are many, many others as well.

 

[catholicbuckeye]

have you ever heard a guy leaving working on a “paternity Leave” .

I think that is quite common now adays, for fathers to be granted time off of work after having a new born.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, one can not claim to be Catholic while publicly holding views that are contrary to Catholic Teachings.

Abortion is not the only issue, there are many, many others as well.

That’s true – a Catholic cannot deny the Divinity of Christ, the Virginity of Mary, the Real Presence at the Mass, and so on.

But abortion, because it involves the wholesale killing of the innocent, is critical to Catholic morality as well as beliefs.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That’s true – a Catholic cannot deny the Divinity of Christ, the Virginity of Mary, the Real Presence at the Mass, and so on.

But abortion, because it involves the wholesale killing of the innocent, is critical to Catholic morality as well as beliefs.

Correct but my point is that someone who is against abortion but denies the Trinity is no more a Catholic than someone who believes in the Trinity and is pro-abortion.

 

[mark_a]

In other words because the process of going through a pregnancy is more than just merely ejaculating into a women’s ovum i think that it is crucial that womankind make the Ultimate decision on whether abortion should be legalized or not.

That’s the way it is now. Are things satifactory now?

 

[mark_a]

Correct but my point is that someone who is against abortion but denies the Trinity is no more a Catholic than someone who believes in the Trinity and is pro-abortion.

Maybe he is no more a Catholic, but he’s probably much closer to God.

Which is the greatest of faith, hope, and love?

 

[whatevergirl]

In other words is it possible to be both pro-choice and be a catholic? Why or WHy not? if Why not is it because of papal authority? In other words is it wrong because of exclesiatic teachings? To what extent are catholics to follow catholic law as regulated by both the Vatican and tradition? Suppose a pope were to be elected who ended up having strong incliniations towards the pro-choice movement, What would happen then? Do you accept pro choice friends catholicism legitamate?

I doubt a Pope would be elected who had those views.

Life is not really OUR choice. It’s God’s. If a life comes to us…then, even if we were doing something that we shouldn’t have been doing to create that life…nonetheless…the choice isn’t ours to terminate it. Life is simply not OUR choice.

Also–there is a vast difference between being Catholic in name …and really living the faith.

I don’t judge others’ views, but I also know that God teaches that we cannot serve Him, and man. If one is pro choice, it’s not that someone isn’t living their Catholic faith–it’s that they are not living in the fullness of it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Correct but my point is that someone who is against abortion but denies the Trinity is no more a Catholic than someone who believes in the Trinity and is pro-abortion.

Is there such a beast?

If there were a reward for a Catholic who was against abortion but denies the Trinity, that reward would go uncollected for a loooooooog time.