Is abortion a mortal sin?

[margaret42]

In answer to your original question-yes!

 

[Erikaspirit16]

And that’s all fine and good when it’s, say, whether one should drink spirits or whether eating pork is okay. But when it comes to what Catholics believe is murder, there can’t really be a live and let live attitude. If you thought that a toddler was a person but I thought it wasn’t and could be “terminated” at will, you would say that we can’t live and let live.

You’re free to make your arguments. Others are free to reject them. To force others to abide by your vision of morality by outlawing their beliefs, without a general consensus of what is right and wrong, is, in a democracy, wrong. This is totalitarianism.

Look at the polls:
See a Gallup poll on abortion, http://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx covering 1975-2017.
Legal under any circumstance: 1975–21% 2017–29%
Legal only under certain circumstance: 1975–54% 2107–50%
Illegal in all circumstances: 1975–22% 2017–18%
no opinion: 3% in both 1975 and 2017

So, as you can see, in 42 years the “illegal in all circumstances” has actually fallen 4%, from 22% to 18%.
Meanwhile “legal under any circumstances” has gained 8%, from 21% to 29%.

It seems to me that if you haven’t moved the needle (except backwards) in 42 years, you need to re-think your approach.

Please don’t come back to me with something like “But abortion is intrinsically wrong, it’s evil…” That’s what YOU think. I’m not saying morality should be voted on; you’re free to decide what’s right and wrong for yourself. What I’m saying is that forcing people (keep in mind I’m talking about other major religions here) to abide by your own notion of morality is not only wrong, it’s not working. Again, see the poll numbers–in 42 years, the pro-life side has LOST 4%. Only 18% see abortion as “wrong” in all circumstances. Should that 18% impose their will on the 82% simply because they think they’re right? Probably you would say yes. But you are in a small minority–18%.

As for “eating pork,” you seem to be placing it in a lower category than abortion. Again, that’s YOUR opinion. I doubt if it’s the opinion of Jews and Muslims. If Jews and Muslims, a small minority in the US, joined together and somehow outlawed raising pigs and selling pork, I think you would feel your freedoms had been taken away. You would be right. And guess what? That 82% feels their freedoms are being taken away if you outlaw all abortion.

As I’ve said earlier (above), if you’re really serious about stopping or reducing abortion, stop the fruitless effort to outlaw it. Remove the economic causes. That will reduce abortions.

 

[Entwhistler]

I’m pretty sure most people in the world agree that murder is wrong. I assume you do as well.

Obviously, you and I disagree that abortion is killing a human person. That is fine. But I’m trying to show you how Christians are coming at this. We believe abortion is killing someone. We can’t sit by and merely talk about economic issues by itself.

One needs to understand that “freedom of choice” arguments don’t really work on pro-lifers because we believe freedom does not give you the right to kill what we think is a human being.

Again, if half the people of the world believe killing one a toddler was okay, they would say you are legislating morality and curtailing their freedom by making a law saying infantice was wrong.

If you look back in history at the Aztecs who sacrificed hundreds of thousands of people to their God, they would say you are curtailing their religious freedom by legislating morality.

If the “fetus” is a person, as Catholics believe, we can’t just sit by and say, “Well, that’s just what we think so we will let folks kill people.”

 

[meltzerboy2]

Because this (the US) is NOT a Christian nation, nor is it a Catholic (Christian) nation. Yes, there are more Christians than any other religious group, but we do not live in a theocracy. We are a pluralistic, multicultural, multiethnic, and multi-religious democracy including those who do not practice any religion. Different religions have different views regarding abortion, even among Christians.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I’m pretty sure most people in the world agree that murder is wrong. I assume you do as well.

Obviously, you and I disagree that abortion is killing a human person. That is fine. But I’m trying to show you how Christians are coming at this. We believe abortion is killing someone. We can’t sit by and merely talk about economic issues by itself.

One needs to understand that “freedom of choice” arguments don’t really work on pro-lifers because we believe freedom does not give you the right to kill what we think is a human being.

Again, if half the people of the world believe killing one a toddler was okay, they would say you are legislating morality and curtailing their freedom by making a law saying infantice was wrong.

If you look back in history at the Aztecs who sacrificed hundreds of thousands of people to their God, they would say you are curtailing their religious freedom by legislating morality.

If the “fetus” is a person, as Catholics believe, we can’t just sit by and say, “Well, that’s just what we think so we will let folks kill people.”

OK, let’s take it one step at a tlme.

Murder is wrong? Yes, I’m sure all people agree. What they DISAGREE about is the definition of “murder.” Most do not think abortion in the 1st trimester, or even into the 2nd, is murder at all. YOU do. THEY don’t.

No–you’ve got it wrong. I agree with you. Abortion at any point is killing a human being. No argument from me. Where we part company is that I don’t think imposing MY morality on other people is a good idea.

“We can’t sit by…” OK. Let me ask you a question: What, specifically, have YOU done to reduce or eliminate abortions? Second question: How’s that strategy working? And then I’ll tell you what I do, and how my strategy is working.

Aztecs: Absolutely right. The Aztecs thought it was their religious duty to kill captives as a sacrifice. The Spanish put an end to it through a bloody conquest. Could they have done it differently? Sure. They chose not to. Would other solutions have been just as effective? Probably they would have caused less bloodshed all around. Other people always bring up slavery. That led to a civil war with 610,000 dead. Was there another solution? Sure. If you don’t know what it was, ask me.

I’m not saying you should “sit by” and watch abortions happen. I’m saying you need to a) realize that if there are fewer pregnancies, there would be fewer abortions. So how to get fewer pregnancies? Well, birth control is an obvious answer, but there is another way. Do you know what it is? It’s the strategy I support and give money to. And b) Once a woman is pregnant, how do you get her to have the baby, either to keep or put up for adoption? There are definite strategies that work.

 

[goodcatholic]

not much else to be said

dogmatic and dismissive? classic example

 

[goodcatholic]

What annoys me about abortion debates is the high and mighty, holier than thou attitude of ultra pro lifers. They thrive on belting anyone who suggests there be any exceptions. How can you discuss this topic, when they’ve already made up their mind. “that’s the rule. deal with it!”

 

[Entwhistler]

No–you’ve got it wrong. I agree with you. Abortion at any point is killing a human being. No argument from me. Where we part company is that I don’t think imposing MY morality on other people is a good idea.

I think someone else on this thread mentioned that laws prohibiting murder are imposing my morality on folks. We both agree that abortion is killing someone. There should be a law against that. There should always be a law against killing an innocent person.

I agree that there are ways to get rid of abortion other than just outlawing it. But we have to stand on principle first of all. Without that all of our other efforts are rather meaningless if you get what I mean.

Of course, we can’t just stop at outlawing it. That won’t do as much as we probably hope. But it’s the principle of the thing.

I’ve prayed in front of abortion clinics and I have signed petitions. Has that done anything? Who knows. Would giving money to certain organization help more? Probably, but I’m not really in a position to throw money around given that I’m in college.

I agree that we can’t just focus in on one thing. We need to look at everything surrounding abortion to find ways that innocent people don’t die. You sound that you have strategies that work and I would love to hear them. Anything that helps.

 

[joecaro]

Great response - wholeheartedly agree. We also need to realize that God breathed life into every one of use -we are His children as well as that of out parents.You can’t use modern ideologies to rationalize the ‘wrongness’ of abortion. If you are alive the fetus inside you is alive. In criminal law - if you kill a pregnant woman you are charged with TWO murders! Yet, Planned Parenthood and many ‘progressive’ liberals insist even partial-birth abortion is acceptable (Planned Parenthood farms out the baby parts). You can’t spectate from the sidelines - get into the fight to stop this reprehensible thing we do!

 

[joecaro]

Wrong thinking and wrong facts - we are not a democracy to start with - we are a REPUBLIC which is substantially a different civic and political ideology. And, YES we have been founded as a Christian nation and remain so. Many of our metropolitan cities are named after Christian saints - how about St. Louis and St. Paul for starters. What you were taught in school is a liberal fantasy that they are trying force you to embrace (called brain-washing in the old days). They use psychological tricks like ‘subliminal suggestion’ today - in films and especially TV shows. Have you noticed that every TV program has one black to a three white average? Why do you think that is? Blacks make-up less than 10% of the population and until the '80’s you couldn’t find even a ratio of 3 % on TV shows. The government changed all this with the undying help of Big Brother.

 

[joecaro]

What annoys me are people like you calling yourself a “good Catholic.” you would, with that attitude, hardly make a good Christian! Christians from all denominations are “ANTI-ABORTION” the ‘pro-life’ label was designed by liberal progressives simply to make foolish people like you accept “Pro-Choice” label and not the real position which is “PRO-ABORTION.”

There is no such thing, I may mention, as an “ultra pro lifers” as you suggest. These knowledgeable people actually read the"10 Commandments" and decided that God wanted all of us to abide by them. You on the other hand, have fallen into the liberal trap that ‘anything in moderation that you want to do’ is fine, without worrying about the consequences.
After all, God will forgive you - if you ask Him nicely.

 

[joecaro]

Don’t mix your metaphors Yes, PEOPLE should divide what they have and give to the needy (if then so choose to do so). SOCIALISM however, MANDATES what you keep, what THEY demand you to give - and TO WHOM!
Got the picture?.

 

[goodcatholic]

Someone has to take the absolute view on this and thankfully the Church is doing that. Yes society is slipping down the evil liberal/laizes faire slope. I tend to agree actually. I’m no fan of the PP organisation, believe me.
My point is solely with the self-appointed catholic gestapo characters who come on Internet debate forums and pummel the likes of me who may express some doubts. How can you have a discussion with a broken record? It’s boring so I tend to avoid them anyway.

 

[meltzerboy2]

First, we are not a pure democracy but are we not a representative democracy as well as a republic? Second, although we were founded by Christians and deists, our Constitution stresses freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. Although we have not exactly met the ideals of the Constitution throughout our long and troubled history, the moral and ethical principles of freedom are there in black and white. And third, speaking of black and white, your mini-lesson on the power of subliminal perception generated by the media regarding people of color vs. Whites has no psychological basis. Besides, is the fact there are more Blacks on television today than in the past a bad thing, in your opinion? Finally, what is the purpose of this thread? Is it to talk about whether abortion is a mortal sin and the reasons why more people (particularly Christians) don’t take a stand against abortion? I was trying to answer that question. Or is the purpose rather to bash liberalism and the Church at the same time for being, according to you, too liberal in the modern era? Are you willing to at least listen to others’ points of view on what constitutes a mortal sin and whether the sin of abortion (I think nearly all Catholics agree on that) can be forgiven?

BTW, despite my name “meltzerboy,” I am not a schoolboy. Far from it. I am a senior citizen.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I think someone else on this thread mentioned that laws prohibiting murder are imposing my morality on folks.

Yes and no. In the case of murder, virtually everyone agrees it should be illegal. But we do impose our morality on a lot of people–for example, we told Mormons they couldn’t have multiple wives if they wanted Utah to be a state. We don’t allow pedophilia. But in all these cases it’s not a minority imposing their will on a majority–a very large majority is imposing its will on a small minority. There is a consensus of opinion. Exactly what percentage you need for such a consensus is a debatable question, but it’s certainly much bigger than 51%-49%. And, perhaps most importantly, public opinion has shifted in favor of the majority in these cases–those who favor polygamy or pedophilia are a shrinking minority, not a growing one.

But we have to stand on principle first of all.

Go ahead. No one’s stopping you from standing on principle. No one’s stopping you from arguing with other people, taking out ads, supporting politicians who are against abortion, etc. But at some point you have to ask yourself if what you’re doing is having any effect whatsoever except alienating the other side. As you can see from the poll I quoted, public opinion is NOT shifting your way–it’s going the opposite way. What the pro-life people are doing is simply not working. But they keep on doing the same thing. Foolish.

Praying and signing petitions is very nice. And the practical results of that are what, exactly?

So. How to reduce pregnancies, and thus abortions. Everyone knows the answer: educate women. Especially in other countries. Personally I only have one charity I give money to: The Sisters of Notre Dame, who operate schools for girls in India, and also clinics. http://www.sndbangalore.org/ And it’s not European nuns, the Indians run it themselves–they are the nuns, they are the teachers and doctors. But education is also needed in the US–the higher the education level, the fewer children; fewer pregnancies = fewer abortions. So that’s step #1.

What next? As I said before, the next step is to understand WHY women have abortions. The Guttmacher Institute conducted a poll in 2005 Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives | Guttmacher Institute Here are some of the reasons the women gave:

1. 74% said having a baby would “dramatically change my life.”
2. 73% said “I can’t afford a baby now.”
3. 48% didn’t want to be single mothers, or they had relationship problems.
4. 40% felt they had finished having all the children they wanted
5. 33% “weren’t ready” to have a baby

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2…

And of course almost everyone had multiple reasons. So you attack those reasons. Encourage marriage–there could be all sorts of incentives. Better public housing for married couples. Monthly subsidies for married couples. Bigger tax breaks for married couples. Etc. “I can’t afford a baby now” – so flip that around. Make having a baby a profitable experience, not one that costs you money. Free pre-natal care, medical care during childbirth, medical care for children up to 18. Free pre-K child care. Free after-school care. Monthly subsidies for every child. (Canada pays $6,400 a year for each child under 6, and $5,400 for children 6-18. Family benefits - Canada.ca) Paid leave from work for up to 6 months if you have a baby–paid the same as unemployment. And on and on.

And of course all the right-wing pro-lifers will say “Socialism!!!” or “We can’t afford all that!!” And in the next breath they will go back to talking about making abortion illegal–because that has worked so well in the last 42 years. Meanwhile all the other developed countries have implemented most or all of these programs, and their abortion rates have fallen. Canada can afford it, but the US can’t? Really? So what do I do personally? I support any politician who supports these programs. Because it is a PRACTICAL and EFFECTIVE way to reduce abortions. Trying to make it illegal, as we saw in Ireland, is futile and a waste of effort. Praying is all well and good, but so far I don’t see those prayers being answered.

If you TRULY believed abortion was evil and you wanted to reduce abortions, how much would you pay? $5 a week? $10? How much is a baby worth? How much is spent now on ineffective lobbying?

Oh…and slavery? What if all those abolitionists simply went and bought the slaves in the South, then either freed them and let them stay in the South (remember, 20% of blacks in the South were already free!) or brought them to the North. Expensive, right? But guess what–it would have been several magnitudes cheaper than the Civil War and 610,000 dead. Are the social programs to reduce abortion expensive? Sure. But if you oppose them, what are you really saying? You would prefer more abortions? Because that’s the effect.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

You can’t spectate from the sidelines - get into the fight to stop this reprehensible thing we do!

Again, how’s that working out for you? Victory around the corner?

Here’s a recent poll from the UK–http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/20...f-catholics-support-abortion-survey-suggests/ “The annual poll by NatCen Social Research found over three fifths of Catholics think a woman should be able to have an abortion if she simply does not want to have the baby.”
60% of Catholics!!! I’m sure US statistics are similar. Once again, let me repeat: the pro-life tactics have not worked. Public opinion is shifting AGAINST the pro-life view. Don’t you think you should be trying something else?

 

[meltzerboy2]

I think you have some great proposals. But the rub is that some of them are anathema to conservatives because they involve governmental initiatives. You know, when push comes to shove, sticking to conservative ideology takes precedence over moral principles for some (not all) who would not be caught dead supporting a seemingly liberal policy.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

But the rub is that some of them are anathema to conservatives because they involve governmental initiatives.

Not necessarily. The Church could do all of these things on its own. In the Middle Ages it wasn’t the government running the schools, orphanages, and hospitals. It was the Church.

Next someone will say, “Oh, but the Church can’t afford it.” And yet, somehow, the Church found hundreds of millions of dollars to settle sexual assault charges. Interesting…

 

[meltzerboy2]

Like everything else, it’s a matter of individuals’ and the government’s priorities, as well as the Church’s, I suppose.