Is abortion ever justified?

[ryecroft]

Ryecroft, the question “Is abortion ever justified?” would have to be answered, “NO!” But in your situation, one that is very rare, you made what you believed was the most correct choice, or maybe it seemed to you, the least incorrect choice. There are other rare situations that a reasonable and moral person might choose abortion. But that doesn’t change the fact that abortion is always wrong. Like I said before, we should not condemn you for your choice is such an extreme situation, but we must always condemn abortion as unjustified. Have you ever read the book Sophie’s Choice? It is the story of a woman faced with two unbearable options. Both were wrong, but she was forced to choose. >> RWMORRIS

Actually, yes, I am familiar with the book and movie Sophie’s Choice. She was forced to choose to either have one killed or both killed - this is a choice similar to mine but still a choice no one should ever have to make. What good would come of both dying? Although a difficult choice, the only decision a mother could make was to choose to have one live. I was forced to make a decision - either both die or one lives - I chose to have one live and again although it was a choice I wish I didn’t have to make I will never be ashamed or guilty for choosing to live instead of choosing to die.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

apparently you would rather have seen both of us die than just one of us .

apparently you misinferred. i would prefer tosee the effort made to save both, not just writing off the child to save the mother.

Don’t even imply you feel pity for me - that’s not the point of what I’m saying .

once again, i think you misunderstood. i do not pity your situation or anything like that. i pity you for thinking the decesion you made was acceptable.

I did know that even if we had been able to deliver it wouldn’t have lived .

you do not know that. it is an outright lie to claim you do. it may have been incredibly unlikely but you refused to give your own child that fighting chance. only God knows if your son/daughter would have made it, we wont ever know.

Are you so blind that you don’t see what the only LIFE choice was? .

the only LIFE choice was to try and preserve life, not end one for the sake of another.

 

[limerick]

**Ryecroft was faced with the most difficult and painful decision of life. She made her choice and is now faced with the afterburn. I think she may have come to CAF to run it by a few folks to gather their interpretations of the situation. She may or may not be tending an undercurrent of some level of fear or regret or sorrow because she chose the way she did. I have followed this thread, and in my opinion she will not ever find the peace she is looking for until she is able to face God and tell Him that she did the best she could in that one golden hour, given all that she had to work with at that time.

This is not the place to look for understanding or compassion on the subject of abortion. Being a Catholic forum, the Catholic participants are beholden to their faith, their doctrine, their dogma, their Truth, or whatever they have chosen to live by, to vehemently and vociferously condemn abortion. And that is fine. My posts here, based on my own experiences with abortion, mental illness and a number of other complex topics, have also been either dismissed or rebuked by members of the Forum, but it hasn’t changed anything. I am solely responsible for my actions. No matter how much shouting and castigating and admonishing takes place, I am still, thankfully, left with only myself inside my own afterburn. Some would have us believe God is angry. Some might try to tell us He has cried a river of tears over our choices. I don’t believe God feels any emotion. I think when ryecroft and I find our places in line behind the other 50 million plus women who have to face judgment for aborting a fetus, then and only then will we know the true measure of the impact of what we have done. And no one on Catholic Answers Forum enjoys a place in the Inner Sanctum of our relationships with God - we will face Him when called, we will do what He asks and, in my case, I will tack on either 15 seconds or twenty millenia of suffering for what I have done. It’s His call. Not the call of CAF or its members.

No one here is responsible, as these deeds are already done. The charitable thing to do is just pray for those who have fallen. Quit kicking us while we’re trying to get up. And please, people, stop acting as if you have never in your lives done anything that would pain a feeling God. We’re all human.

Limerick**

 

[ryecroft]

you do not know that. it is an outright lie to claim you do. it may have been incredibly unlikely but you refused to give your own child that fighting chance. only God knows if your son/daughter would have made it, we wont ever know.

Actually, yes I do know aggie catholic - we know that at that time the earliest a fetus outside the womb could live and prosper was at 26 weeks - I was just at 16.

It’s really easy for you to play hollier than thou because you’ve never been faced with this decision - but yes the doctors did do all they could to save both of us - you don’t seem to understand or want to understand that. I chose the only choice that could be made and have someone live. We didn’t just “write the fetus” off - and you shouldn’t imply that we did - we waited as long as we could to try to save the fetus and myself. I don’t know why you think we just willy nilly made this decision. You will never understand apparently that there is a time when a woman has to choose her life or the life of her fetus. And don’t “pity” me for the choice I made-I am a strong woman and I made the only choice that would keep our family intact - my death would have helped no one-if there was any possible way to save the fetus is would have been done - there was nothing else to do - it was at the point that I continue hemmoraging and we both die or only one dies. I hope you never have to make that choice because obviously you’d prefer to die along with the fetus
that’s your choice - so give it a rest - we get your sanctamonious point - you would have obviously happily died along with the fetus. Well kudos to you. I will always be sorry that I was forced to make the choice but I will never be guilty or ashamed for the choice I made.

 

[ryecroft]

the only LIFE choice was to try and preserve life, not end one for the sake of another
aggie catholic

But obviously if I had been able to save the fetus but die than ending my life for the sake of another would have been completely acceptable. As I said, I made the only LIFE choice that would keep one of us alive -we tried to preserve both lives but it was not possible. Get off your high horse - we did preserve life - my life - saving one was better than saving none.

 

[RWMorris]

… Actually, yes, I am familiar with the book and movie Sophie’s Choice. She was forced to choose to either have one killed or both killed - this is a choice similar to mine but still a choice no one should ever have to make. What good would come of both dying? Although a difficult choice, the only decision a mother could make was to choose to have one live. I was forced to make a decision - either both die or one lives - I chose to have one live and again although it was a choice I wish I didn’t have to make I will never be ashamed or guilty for choosing to live instead of choosing to die.

God bless you. You seem to have made peace with yourself and God in a difficult situation.

 

[wanner47]

Actually, Ryecroft, the earliest known surviving preemie was 21 weeks.

It’s also possible that your child would have lived just long enough to be baptized. I think, personally, that’d be worth the risk. I’m still trying to understand how killing a baby and THEN delivering it is preferable than just delivering it, though. Can you point me to some resources that might explain?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Actually, Ryecroft, the earliest known surviving preemie was 21 weeks.

It’s also possible that your child would have lived just long enough to be baptized. I think, personally, that’d be worth the risk. I’m still trying to understand how killing a baby and THEN delivering it is preferable than just delivering it, though. Can you point me to some resources that might explain?

Thank you, I’ was trying to think of a way to ask this.

My son spent 2 1/2 months in the NICU. I personally saw a 24 week little girl. I was told of a 23 week baby girl that survived, and also of a 14 ounce baby that survived

 

[RWMorris]

** … ****This is not the place to look for understanding or compassion on the subject of abortion. … My posts here, based on my own experiences with abortion, mental illness and a number of other complex topics, have also been either dismissed or rebuked by members of the Forum, … **

Then we, as Christians, have failed. Whether this is a Catholic forum or not, is not an excuse. I promise to work harder to be more charitable.

 

[limerick]

Actually, Ryecroft, the earliest known surviving preemie was 21 weeks.

This was in 2007. When did ryecroft’s experience take place?

It’s also possible that your child would have lived just long enough to be baptized. I think, personally, that’d be worth the risk. I’m still trying to understand how killing a baby and THEN delivering it is preferable than just delivering it, though. Can you point me to some resources that might explain?

 

[ryecroft]

At the time the youngest was 26 weeks - and by the way we did do an impromptu baptism and put the ashes by Neah Bay. But there was no way for me to deliver and not die - so no trying to deliver was not worth the risk of my dying - my doctor gave me all the time he could prior to having to deal with the hemmoraging - it’s pointless - until you are faced with something similar you won’t understand. My husband and I want to be parents - but to have me die to try to deliver a 16 week fetus which WILL NOT survive is just not worth it - as I’ve said I’m glad all of you seem so certain of what you would do - it’s a lot easier to say what you would do and then actually having to do it. We did what was necessary. Even the priest said there was no point of both of us dying and no he did NOT give us the wrong advice or answer. We did everything we could to prevent it going the way it went but sometimes it JUST ISN"T POSSIBLE. We waited as long as possible and I still almost died - so how dare those of you that want to imply that we could have waited to deliver or who throw out what you would have done because I say again until you’re in that situation and your life is on the line you will not understand. This whole theme of saving the fetus (regardless of if it can live outside of the mother) and to heck heck with it if the mother dies is ridiculous. We waited longer than the doctors wanted us to in order to try to save this pregnancy and my life and I still almost died - there were two options ONLY - either both of us die or one of us die and both of us dying doesn’t serve the fetus any good, doesn’t serve the doctor any good, doesn’t serve my husband any good and certainly serves me no good.

 

[ryecroft]

It’s also possible that your child would have lived just long enough to be baptized. I think, personally, that’d be worth the risk. I’m still trying to understand how killing a baby and THEN delivering it is preferable than just delivering it, though. Can you point me to some resources that might explain?>>

All I know is that the fetus was taken out during the surgery - somehow it was impeeding them getting at some of the area that was hemmoraging or going to hemmorage. Waiting as long as I did almost cost me the ability to have children in the future because they came very close to having to do a hysterectomy.

 

[wanner47]

Well, if the baby wasn’t killed prior to surgery, I don’t know if it could be considered an abortion, especially of the intent was to stop the hemorraging and not kill the child (i.e. the principle of double effect).

 

[TheWhoFreak]

In my case this is a “Justification” - it was a medical fact and this was a reason - not an excuse - like some of the other examples you gave. This reason is in a class by itself because you’re not talking about the life of the fetus only - you’re talking about the life of the mother - and the mother has just as much right to live as the fetus she carries.

Trying to be honest without sounding like a jerk here ryecroft, but IMHO your choice showed a lack of faith in God and terrible selfishness. So what if the pregnancy endangered yours and the child’s life? You have lived a reasonably full life, and if your soul had been in a state of grace prior to your death, you would have gone to Heaven, which I hear is a good thing. You talk about a right to live. There is no such thing. We are only allowed to live by the Grace of God, now that is no right! Life is a privelige, and we are to live every waking moment of it for our Father in Heaven. I could care less if it was some “medically necessary” BS. If you have faith in God, all things are possible, like you and your baby surviving the pregnancy! No real offense intended, but I honestly cant comprehend the selfishness you displayed so flagrantly in your choice. It disgusts me.

 

[limerick]

Trying to be honest without sounding like a jerk here ryecroft, but IMHO your choice showed a lack of faith in God and terrible selfishness. So what if the pregnancy endangered yours and the child’s life? You have lived a reasonably full life, and if your soul had been in a state of grace prior to your death, you would have gone to Heaven, which I hear is a good thing. You talk about a right to live. There is no such thing. We are only allowed to live by the Grace of God, now that is no right! Life is a privelige, and we are to live every waking moment of it for our Father in Heaven. I could care less if it was some “medically necessary” BS. If you have faith in God, all things are possible, like you and your baby surviving the pregnancy! No real offense intended, but I honestly cant comprehend the selfishness you displayed so flagrantly in your choice. It disgusts me.

**Now, here’s that good old fashioned self-proclaimed-Catholic compassion and love I’ve been talking about! Good job stepping in it, uterus-less one.

Limerick**

 

[schultzc]

I hate when people bring the rape pregnancy up. First of all, most who do have never been raped and the ones that have may have a skewed perception.
My perception is it is a life and life is good. I can speak from experience here. When I was 20 I was raped. This was my first sexual experience. It took everything away from me. I felt completely worthless. I did not press charges because the court system would revictimize me. When the police asked me, “What if he got you pregnant?” My only answere to him was that at least something positive would have come from that scenerio.

Also from my experience; my first husband was abusive. I have since been annulled and remarried. I have 6 children with my second husband. But I have a child from my first who is a product of him raping me. (Yes a husband can forcibly force himself on his wife.) She saved my life. Because of her I had the strength to leave him and look for a better life. She is almost 10 and I love her just as much as my other children. So it saddens me to know end when I hear the product of rape scenerio.

 

[Heliotropium]

I know this topic has been beaten to death but I will post anyway. Abortion is never justified even in the case of rape. The difference between the two scenarios is so great that how you even chose them to compare a point is beyond me. In any case I feel the main reason for why Bob and others do not understand the stance on abortion is because they do not understand the theology behind the Catholic Faith. In the first case (a very unrealistic one…bob you sure do have a vivid imagination) we see someone who has been obducted to give life support to a man who is DYING by NATURAL means. This man is now going to use UNNATURAL means and methods to prolong the invetable (which is his death). The question is does this person have a moral obligation to keep the dying man alive? The answer is no! The reason is because the means in which he is trying to prolong his life is unnatural and therefor against Gods will which is for this man to die. If this person on the other hand chose to be the mans life support then only then would their be a question of moral obligation. Now I know your going to say this proves the rape scenario is justified. And is just cause for abortion and I would still say no.

For the rape victim weather she likes it or not this child is no accident, and is Gods Will to be in her. Since it is Gods Will that the child is in the women it is her moral obligation to take care of its well being. See the stance a Christian takes in life, and the direction a Christian goes should always be for and to Gods Will. See we Catholics believe no pregnancy is an accident for only God chooses when a woman concieves a child. If God has chosen to make a child then it is His most perfect will to do so and we must follow this will. Furthermore this child is a beautiful thing and a living testament of how God can bring a greater good out of so much bad. I for one am apauled that I live in a world that sees and compares pregnancies and treats life like its a std rather than the mirical it is.

 

[DLClark]

We all know that abortion is wrong. But consider the following scenario: A man is dying of kidney failure and must find a kidney somewhere. But he cannot, so his wife pays a mobster to kidnap and drug a young woman. The mobster knows an excellent surgeon who can be bought and the doctor surgically connects the woman to the man so that the sick man can now live since he can tap off of the kidney of the woman. The woman then wakes up from the surgery and finds herself surgically connected by tubes to this sick man who needs her kidney. It is possible for the woman to easily remove these tubes any time she wants and disconnect the life support of the man, which will then result in the instant death of the man to whom she has been connected.
Now does this woman have a moral obligation to keep this man alive ? Or is she morally justified in removing these tubes?
What does this have to do with abortion? Consider the case of a woman who has been forcibly raped? There are differences between the two cases, but are there not some similarities which may be relevant when considering the morality of the actions of removing the tubes versus the morality of an abortion in the case of violent rape?

In the case of rape there is always adoption. Think about it for a moment. A rapes B so we kill C. That makes no sense. C is innocent, so why kill the innocent person. God has a lot to say in the Bible about protecting the innocent person. Adoption is always a choice that we have. God does NOT make a distinction on how a person is conceived. He does say though that killing the unborn is a sin.

Question for: Why did most Catholics vote for the most pro-choice person the history of America to be our president? Maybe those who did should repent of their sin.

 

[st_lucy]

I hate when people bring the rape pregnancy up. First of all, most who do have never been raped and the ones that have may have a skewed perception.
My perception is it is a life and life is good. I can speak from experience here. When I was 20 I was raped. This was my first sexual experience. It took everything away from me. I felt completely worthless. I did not press charges because the court system would revictimize me. When the police asked me, “What if he got you pregnant?” My only answere to him was that at least something positive would have come from that scenerio.

Also from my experience; my first husband was abusive. I have since been annulled and remarried. I have 6 children with my second husband. But I have a child from my first who is a product of him raping me. (Yes a husband can forcibly force himself on his wife.) She saved my life. Because of her I had the strength to leave him and look for a better life. She is almost 10 and I love her just as much as my other children. So it saddens me to know end when I hear the product of rape scenerio.

Thank you for posting this. I have mentioned before that I am a product of a rape, my father (who was my mother’s husband) raped her and I am the result. My mother did not tell me this until I was an adult, because she was afraid people would blame me. When ever I bring this up to someone who thinks it is okay to kill a child who is the result of a rape they just tend to ignore me and go on as usual. I am not sure if that means that they would have not seen any reason why I should be here, or what . I am very grateful to my mom and we are very close.

 

[DLClark]

Under what conditions can anyone justify killing an unborn person?