Is abortion ever justified?

[benedictus2]

Well it’s legal in Australia so there was no problem. It was after thorough psychiatric evaluation and consultation with the doctor, two psychiatrists and a psychologist that the decision was made to go ahead with the late term abortion. It was VERY late term, around 7 - 8 months.

Legal does not mean right. Legal does not mean moral.

Very late term. Hmmm, definitely murder.

Picture this. a child chopped up bit by bit. If you do that to a new born child you would be considered the most heinous of all human beings.

In the books Victims and Victors a victim of rape had a change of mind about the abortion rather late in the piece so with tears she asked the doctor" Could you at least tell me what the sex of the baby is?".

The doctor answered’ I can’t. It’s in pieces"

 

[Cinette]

Cinette;5284652:

Yes and we can map that and we can know that, isn’t science amazing.

Sigh. your you’re

the ones defining importance to weather whethersomeone is a human being or not. I couldn’t care less about your genetic make up. - **

There have been individuals who have woken up from comas and testified to having been conscious to what was going on around them. About 18 months ago - I think it was in Italy or Germany - a man woke up after about 20 years in a coma (might have been more). He was able to identify grandchildren born during that period etc., His wife had taken good care of him and did everything to keep the family around him. It was a lovely story - came in the news.

 

[Cinette]

Ergo, a person in coma is not a human being

Any point before that it is a collection of cells. [/qutoe]
Honey, you are a collection of cells.

You just said brains and consciousness make a human being. Is brain not an organ?

 

[benedictus2]

Especially in a later term abortion, when it actually is a childs life (Early abortions for most people who understand that a zygote is not a baby is not a difficult choice) we cannot decide we must let the mother decide. Who else can?

Whose life is more valuable? Who has memories?

What makes having memories a precondition for a valuable life?
Does that mean those suffering amnesia or alzheimer cease to be valuable at that point?
Who decides what makes life valuable?

Children to care for and care for them?

I have never been married and have no children. That’s right, you might as well shoot me too.

A husband/wife who may enter depression?

Yep, someone’s possible depression is far more important that someone else’s life. What a sick mentally!

In my eyes the mothers life is more valuable,

So therefore your answer to my hypothetical above is that you will let the robber shoot your child right there in front of you.

just as a scientists life is more valuable than a drug dealers or an engineers more than a heroin addict.

Really? Fr Donald Calloway used to be a drug dealer. Now he is an inspiring priest. The scientist who made the atom bomb they dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I suppose their lives are much more important than that of Fr Calloway. Dr Josef Mengele is a briliant doctor.

You have a very materialistic narrow view of life. Your valuation of people is dependent on their usefulness. Your view of life is utilitarian. Extended further this world view can go as far as “kill the infirmed and disabled, they are only a burden to society.” Sick, sick, sick!

Lets remove your situation of a robber. Lets just make it an unchangeable event where there is only 3 out comes, you die, your child dies and if you do not answer both of you die.

No you can’t remove the situation of the robber because abortion has an abortionist. The child does not die by itself. It is murder by it’s mother and the doctor.

Now the child has just been born, it is tabula rasa so no negative or positive attributes can be put on it,

Aside from the fact that he/she happens to be a human being and our value our worth comes from that fact. that we are all human beings and so therefore has the right to life. Our right to life is to that fact. That we are human beings.

It is no accident that when there is a disaster we look out for the children. the weakest member of our race. And there is no weaker member than the child in the womb.

it has potential for anything. Now if I have no family, no other children, no great world saving commitments I would choose me. But if I had a husband, two other children and was working on a successful project to cure cancer, It would be awfully selfish of me to kill my self.

Hogwash. The selfish option is to choose to kill your child so that you may live as you wish.

And in that case I would choose my baby.

So Abaddon will become a baby killer. Not any other’s baby either. Her own baby.

You have to remember suicide (which is what you are doing by letting your self die) can sometimes be selfish.

Suicide is not letting yourself die. Suicide is intentionally killing yourself Choosing to die so that someone else may live is the most noble thing a person can do. It is called self-sacrifice. Obviously you have no idea what that is.

The mothers life is more valuable TO ME, do you value the child’s life more? Because it usually seems that anti-abortion people do.

Not it is not about valuing the child’s life more. It is about valuing all life. It is about stating that someone’s worth is not tied to what they can do but rather to who they are - human beings.

 

[benedictus2]

Exactly so why am I any more special than a cow or a plant?

Precisely!!! Therefore your rebutall that the fetus is just a collection of cells don’t hold. If the foetus is just a collection of cells and you are just a collection of cells then you are no more special that the foetus. So what makes you more special than a cow or a plant? It is because you are a human being!!

I’m sure I keep using a structure (includes brains) that enables higher functioning thought (not consciousness), This could be a computer with functioning A.I or some alien organ. The brain is just the human component that allows us to understand that higher functioning thought is possibly operating.

You make a human being sound like a robot.

The same thing that makes ape development humanoid, I’m not a developmental biologist so I cannot answer such a difficult question.

Then why call babies humanoids if you have no idea what you are talking about?

Higher functioning thought is what makes sentient beings special, well at least to me, it seems that genetic code similar to your own is enough for you. How would you value A.I or how about an alien?

We don’t know for a fact that alien’s exist and you are already factoring that into this discussion?
And honey, A.I. in machines is a by product of human intelligience.

I’m sure I don’t use the word human being, biological masses with specific genetic code do not matter to me. It’s about personhood, that doesn’t have to be a human person,

Personhood does not necessarily have to apply to a human person??!!!3

So a dog can have personhood? A robot can have person hood?!!

No, but a blastocyst is, just like your germ line cells, less human than you.

Only because of your definition of what constitutes being human and your definition is up the creek.

I think you need to stop making bad connections and understand the basics of development, the basics, I don’t expect you to get a degree in developmental biology…

But as I have shown above you are the one making the terrible connections.
An infant may not be as fully developed as an adult but she/he is still a human being. Just because they are 1-9 months less developed does not make them any less human.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Abbadon,

Go back to my Post 421…

No. But I wouldn’t let the robber shoot me either. Because that’s just stupid. In that situation that is exactly what I would do. Plus I’ve been practicing gun disarms for years, I would love an actual chance to use the skill I’ve acquired.

It is embarrassing to you watch your repeated floundering with Benedictus2 … I want a chance to have you flounder on your poor logic, too…

God bless

 

[Abbadon]

So therefore your answer to my hypothetical above is that you will let the robber shoot your child right there in front of you.

Really? Fr Donald Calloway used to be a drug dealer. Now he is an inspiring priest. The scientist who made the atom bomb they dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I suppose their lives are much more important than that of Fr Calloway. Dr Josef Mengele is a briliant doctor. Scientists are always more valuable than doctors

You have a very materialistic narrow view of life. Your valuation of people is dependent on their usefulness. Your view of life is utilitarian. Extended further this world view can go as far as “kill the infirmed and disabled, they are only a burden to society.” Sick, sick, sick!

 

[Abbadon]

Then why call babies humanoids if you have no idea what you are talking about? You asked a very specific question about the appearance of developing feti, there are probably reasons that have to do with the order of cell line differentiation like I said I’m not a developmental biologist I don’t know why we don’t form from the feet up…

We don’t know for a fact that alien’s exist and you are already factoring that into this discussion?

 

[Abbadon]

Hi, Abbadon,

Go back to my Post 421…
It is embarrassing to you watch your repeated floundering with Benedictus2 … I want a chance to have you flounder on your poor logic, too…

God bless

Said to have poor logic from a catholic… eh gads I am ashamed…

 

[benedictus2]

Scientists are always more valuable than doctors

Maaann you completely missed my point. Do you even know who Dr Mengele is?

Most of the time I find myself utilitarian, but I do disagree with some of it’s greater encompassing points. I’m all for taking care of the disadvantaged and disabled,

Utilitarian and taking care of the disadvantage dont’ go together. You are utilitarian. You will only take care of the disadvantaged if you can get a use out of them.

I pay taxes and I do not mind giving everyone opportunity, free health care and a free education for all is something

No you do mind giving everyone opportunity, You espouse abortion so you espouse depriving the most vulnerable opportunity. The most basic opportunity of all. The opportunity to live.

But when you have a specific situation I simply told you the criteria I would use to judge in that situation, it doesn’t make it right, it’s just the decision I would make

Yes. And that decision is evil. What is worse than a mother who kills her own child so that she can live as she wishes?

And if the child survives and as a result the mother dies, the child has just killed the mother.

No because the child did not will the death of the mother. But the mother wills the death of the child.

I’m actually an abortion baby, the doctors advised my mother against my birth, two births to close to each other.

Aaah yes, you can now make the decision to kill your own child becuase your own mother allowed you to live.

Had any complications happened because of me I know I would have felt horrible from the moment I found out, I would have killed my mother.

How over dramatic. No you would have not. Because I would have thought that when you grow up you will have developed enough intelligence to know that you did not kill your mother. But it seems you have not grown up since you still think that way.

Thankfully we lived in the west and are well off enough to afford great medical care.

Medical care or muderous means?

I’ve never valued being a human being much, I’ve repeated that over and over again.

How terribly, terribly sad. That indeed is your great problem.

I would value a sentient alien or an artificial intelligence just as much as any human, perhaps more.

Another pathetic quote from you.

Why is the childs life more valuable than the mothers?

Did I say that? I said that they are equally valuable. You on the other hand said they are not.

 

[Abbadon]

Really though abortions should never really pose a problem for me, I use enough contraceptives to kill a small mammal. If you can’t get pregnant you don’t need to bother about abortions. Anyway we’ll never get across to each other, you have already believed what you want to believed and like every other religious person nothing will change your mind. I work with cells so much that I doubt I could ever see a single cell as a child. But you go on believing that a single cell is a child and continue adding to your delusions.

It doesn’t really matter because the majority of the world it seems is sane and pushes through with liberty in the face of religious dogma.

 

[benedictus2]

Pity the justice league can’t stop the disasters… yes a child in the womb, not 4 cells in G1 phase…

What a totally off tangent reply to the quote you are responding to. Trying to convince yourself that a child is 4 cells in G1 phase? Maybe you should watch an abortion video. Or have you forgotten that a few posts above you are advocating for late term abortion. Don’t you know that they abortionist refer to the parts of the baby’s body as numbers when clearly they are arms, legs, head, etc?
You know why, because we are all wired to do what is good. So to do evil, we rationalize it to make it look good. That is what you are doing now.

Nope I’m never having my own children, I have alot of bad genetic code, until I can synthesize better code or improve and select my own I’ll stick to adopting. Oh and also artificial placentas and wombs I heard from Nature are just around the corner. Incredible.

There is not getting away from the fact that were you by any chance to become a mother, you advocate killing your own child so you can live as you so desire. Yes, advocates of abortion have already been born. That is narcissism. That is self centredness.

Self-sacrifice can sometimes be selfish.

Self-sacrifice can be selfish? What planet are you in? Since when?

Your value of what it means to be apart of humanity is so, racist, it’s just so… narcissistic… I value something greater than my biology…

Racist? Have you totally lost your ability to comprehend? How can valuing life for the simple reason that it is human life be racist?

You on the other hand value life only when it suits your own parameters of what you regard as valuable. It is always about you. You are the one who is narcissistic. Everything is about abadon. I decide, I choose, I define. Me, me, me.

 

[benedictus2]

Really though abortions should never really pose a problem for me, I use enough contraceptives to kill a small mammal. If you can’t get pregnant you don’t need to bother about abortions. Anyway we’ll never get across to each other, you have already believed what you want to believed and like every other religious person nothing will change your mind. I work with cells so much that I doubt I could ever see a single cell as a child. But you go on believing that a single cell is a child and continue adding to your delusions.

I notice that you have yet again failed to answer my hypothetical about the robber, you and your hypothetical child. Why is that?

It doesn’t really matter because the majority of the world it seems is sane and pushes through with liberty in the face of religious dogma.

Honey I never even brought up religion in this entire discussion with you It’s all been about rational arguments. At least that is what I have been rebutting you with.

 

[benedictus2]

Really though abortions should never really pose a problem for me, I use enough contraceptives to kill a small mammal.
…** I work with cells so much that I doubt I could ever see a single cell as a child**. But you go on believing that a single cell is a child and continue adding to your delusions.

You may go ahead deluding and lying to yourself about this but here is reality for you from a former abortion doctors (Dr Stojan Adasevic). Yes, go ahead lie to yourself. It makes commiting evil easier.

I held a beating heart in my hand
Waiting for him upon his arrival at the hospital that morning was a cousin along with his girlfriend. They had booked an abortion with him. Four months pregnant, the woman was about to do away with her ninth consecutive child. Adasevic refused, but his cousin was so importunate that he gave in: OK, but this was the very last time. On the USG monitor he clearly saw the child with its thumb in its mouth. Stretching the uterus, he inserted the forceps, took hold of something, and pulled. In the jaws of the forceps was a little arm. He placed it on the table, but in such a way that one of the limbs’ nerve endings touched a drop of spilled iodine. Suddenly, the arm began to twitch. The nurse standing beside him almost screamed out. Just like frogs’ legs in a physiology lab! Adasevic shuddered, but went on with the abortion. Again he inserted the forceps, gripped, and pulled. This time it was a leg. Just as he was thinking: “Better not let it touch that drop of alcohol”, a nurse standing behind him dropped a tray of surgical instruments. Startled by the crash, the doctor released the forceps, and the leg landed right beside the arm. It too began to move.
The staff had never seen anything like it: human limbs twitching on the table. Adasevic decided to mash up what was left in the womb, and pull it out in a formless mass. He began mashing, squashing, crushing. Upon withdrawing the forceps, now certain that he had reduced everything to a pulp, he produced a human heart! The organ was still beating. Weaker and weaker it beat, until it stopped altogether. It was then that he realized he had killed a human being. The world turned dark around him. He cannot recall how long this lasted. Suddenly he felt a tug on his arm. A nurse’s terrified voice called out: Doctor Adasevic! Doctor Adasevic! The patient was bleeding. For the first time in years, the doctor began praying earnestly: “Lord! Save not me, but this woman”. Normally it could take up to ten minutes to clean the womb of all remaining embryonic matter. This time two insertions of the instrument through the vagina were enough to complete the task. When Adasevic removed his gloves, he knew this was the last abortion he would ever perform.
jillstanek.com/archives/2008/11/stojan_adasevic.html

 

[benedictus2]

In both cases we are talking about the termination of a pregnancy. That constitutes an abortion (I’m a lawyer, I can play semantics all day long).

But we do agree that the intent behind the medical procedure (whatever we choose to label it) is to save a life, not to kill an innocent child. That is the important distinction.

I agree with you here but whatis the point of tubal ligation? Isn’t that a contraceptive means?

A few things to consider:
Is the tubal ligation purely life saving and not contraceptive?
Can it wait till the baby is born?
If direct harm is being applied to the child to perform the ligation then I don’t think that is permissible.

This is not a case of say taking a life saving medicine which has a negative effect on the child.

I think the best answer would be to let nature take it’s course. If we are talking about a religious person here, then disposition to God’s will also plays an important part.

 

[benedictus2]

You asked a very specific question about the appearance of developing feti, there are probably reasons that have to do with the order of cell line differentiation like I said I’m not a developmental biologist I don’t know why we don’t form from the feet up…

Hhuhh. That is not the point I am trying to make but I will let that pass.

So, they can think and they are self aware, they are special enough. Considering the scale of the universe it is likely that aliens live somewhere in the universe.

Likely? How likely? That is PURE SPECULATION WITHOUT A SMIDGEN OF EVIDENCE.
I thought you work with cells so must be involved in science of some sort and yet you come up with this sort of argument??!!

Yes, yes it can. that’s what I’m trying to explain as to how I value life. I do not care of the makeup of the sentient, just that it is sentient.

Aah sensient. Animals to a certain degree can be said to be sensient. So I take it you are a vegan? But then how do you know that plants are not sensient? After all that is in the same realm of possibilites as aliens.

But seriously how do you convince your self that 4 cells is a baby?

But seriously how do you convince yourself that it is not. If you leave it to it’s normal progression is there a possibility that it will suddenly become a dog or a banana?

I have never been convinced with the whole potential argument, of course it has potential to be a child but at that very moment it is 4 cells.

Sweetheart, by abortion time it is more than 4 cells. Furthermore, you and me all have the same humble beginnings. We all know that cells are the very basis of life.

After working with cells for the past year I am even more unimpressed with this argument.

It does not matter whether you are impressed or not. Fact is, without your interference the egg that was fertilized by a sperm is now forming into a human being.

Would you kill a todder because he/she has not achieved all her potentialities? Is she/more disposable compared to say a 7 year old?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Abbadon,

I am a Catholic, and I think my logical presentation is quite sound.

Said to have poor logic from a catholic… eh gads I am ashamed…

Your continued flounderings with Benedictus2 should be embarrassing, even for you… Truly, your dehumanized view of conceived life as it progress through recognized developmental stages is nothing short of dishonest. Here is a story that is not nearly as threatening as the robber - although it really involves some similar steps. Let’s see…

The first time a carpenter gets an idea of what he will build - that product already exists in his mind. By putting pencil to paper, and then marking his wood to cut, he is further developing the final product he has in his mind - but, the fact that he has the wood for this project makes it beyond an idea - it alrady exists - but, just in uncut and unassembeled form. As the carpenter progress, his neighbor comes over to look at what is going on. Depending on the ability of rhe neighbor - or the progression of the building - the project now becomes real t another person. But, this is only recognition of what already exists. Finally, the project is assembeled and is ready for a final sanding and a protective covering of finish - but a vandal breaks into the carpenter’s workshop that night and destorys the project! This is a tragic event because even though the pieces was not totally completed - it existed as a recognizeable and almost-complete object. There would be something profoundly wrong with the neighbor who then came over and told the carpenter that it was just a “bunch of boards” ("…collection of cells…") that had neither meaning or purpose.

If allowed to complete its natural and predictable development - the fertilized egg will progress to a living baby who then continues to grow and develop. Look back on your own life. Do you doubt that you started off as a fertilized egg - and, now look at yourself. Here you are, able to move, respond (poorly), and doubt that there are moral laws that really govern human behavior that are beyond those that govern the insticts of the great apes. You see, in addition to a unique genetic individuality - there will never be another you - there is also the unique quality of free will. As an immediate example, just read the previous posts and see how different authors are contirubuting to this thread.

In my opinion, you will really have to try harder if you are going to progress.

God bless

 

[livi]

abortion is murder, and therefore never okay! when a woman is raped, its not as if she can go out and murder the man who did it, so why should she be able to murder an innocent baby who did nothing to her? she can give the baby up for adoption after his or her birth, but she can’t kill it.

 

[Cinette]

Scientists are always more valuable than doctors

Most of the time I find myself utilitarian, but I do disagree with some of it’s greater encompassing points. I’m all for taking care of the disadvantaged and disabled, I pay taxes and I do not mind giving everyone opportunity, free health care and a free education for all is something I strongly believe in. But when you have a specific situation I simply told you the criteria I would use to judge in that situation, it doesn’t make it right, it’s just the decision I would make

And if the child survives and as a result the mother dies, the child has just killed the mother.Strange thinking - I was going to say logic but it doesn’t fall in that category! I’m actually an abortion baby, the doctors advised my mother against my birth, two births to close to each other. My sister and I are 10 months apart - for two months we are the same age each year - you can’t get closer than that - it did not appear to have have any bad effects on my Mother! I know someone who has six sibblings and twice his Mother had children in the same year (10 months apart) no problem there either! Had any complications happened because of me I know I would have felt horrible from the moment I found out, I would have killed my mother. Thankfully we lived in the west and are well off enough to afford great medical care.

I’ve never valued being a human being much, I’ve repeated that over and over again. I would value a sentient alien or an artificial intelligence just as much as any human, perhaps more. Have you never experienced love?

Pity the justice league can’t stop the disasters… yes a child in the womb, not 4 cells in G1 phase…

Why is the childs life more valuable than the mothers?Nobody said that. What we have said is that it is not for us to choose between life and death. This is God’s decision entirely.

Nope I’m never having my own children, I have alot of bad genetic code, until I can synthesize better code or improve and select my own I’ll stick to adopting.Please don’t do that - remember you would be adopting a human being or are you planning to adopt an “alien or an artificial intelligence”?? Oh and also artificial placentas and wombs I heard from Nature are just around the corner. Incredible.

Suicide is not letting yourself die. Suicide is intentionally killing yourself Suicide is often an act of desperation by a person heavily depressed or with unsurmountable problems. Choosing to die so that someone else may live is the most noble thing a person can do.Yes, I agree - absolutely. - wait a minute you didn’t say that - the text has got mixed. No, that is not you Abbadon… It is called self-sacrifice. Obviously you have no idea what that is. Self-sacrifice can sometimes be selfish.

Not it is not about valuing the child’s life more. It is about valuing all life. It is about stating that someone’s worth is not tied to what they can do but rather to who they are - human beings.
Your value of what it means to be apart of humanity is so, racist, it’s just so… narcissistic… I value something greater than my biology…Now that is YOU! Someone else’s message got entangled with yours. For a moment I thought you WERE INDEED HUMAN!! LOL!

 

[limerick]

Abbadon:

“I’ve never valued being a human being much, I’ve repeated that over and over again. I would value a sentient alien or an artificial intelligence just as much as any human, perhaps more.”

Cinette:
*
“Have you never experienced love?”*

**It is my experience that many, if not most, people have no idea what love is or what it means. So what kind of a criterion is this? I’ve never experienced profound love as comes from God. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there, it just means I am unable to experience it. So what other criteria do you have so we might measure our value as human beings?

Limerick**