Is abortion ever justified?

[tqualey]

Hi, Limerick,

You may need a bit of help here…

**It is my experience that many, if not most, people have no idea what love is or what it means. So what kind of a criterion is this? I’ve never experienced profound love as comes from God. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there, it just means I am unable to experience it. So what other criteria do you have so we might measure our value as human beings?

Limerick**

Really now, Limerick… making generaized statements about the majority not knowing what love is or means shows a disposition that would curdle vinegar! Besides, look at all of the poets you would put out of business… There is something there all right - and a something that most people experience in their own way - without bitterness.

The God you claim has neve given you an experience of His profound love is available to you at this very moment. All you have to do is open your heart as your pray for His Grace looking at His Love dying on the Cross for you - and, me, too. The ability to see the sunrise means a willingness to at least face the east - even if blind - you can feel its warmth on your face! To go inside and close the door and windows will not stop the sunrise - only your experience of it.

God bless,

 

[Disciple96]

Well it’s legal in Australia so there was no problem. It was after thorough psychiatric evaluation and consultation with the doctor, two psychiatrists and a psychologist that the decision was made to go ahead with the late term abortion. It was VERY late term, around 7 - 8 months.

Then I must call into serious question the moral integrity (or lack thereof) of the doctor, the psychiatrists and the psychologist. Also, it is not less horrible because of the abortion being done at so horribly late a term. It is also not more horrible because murder is murder and any murder is horrible as it takes a life that cannot be given again. Not by any of us anyway, even if there are those who would like to pretend and to have others believe that they have the rights and abilities of a god.

Legal status of an act does not guarantee the moral status of said act. Increasingly, it may indicate precisely the reverse, as a matter of fact.

 

[limerick]

Hi, Limerick,

You may need a bit of help here…

Really now, Limerick… making generaized statements about the majority not knowing what love is or means shows a disposition that would curdle vinegar! Besides, look at all of the poets you would put out of business… There is something there all right - and a something that most people experience in their own way - without bitterness.

**Quite right about the poets being “in business”. The fact that you connect art with commerce is a heads up that fabrication is afoot. I think human beings have been so pulverized with the idea that we must experience love in order to live an authentic life that it disturbs me greatly. I have grave doubts as to whether or not people understand what love is - me included - and that we settle for security, sex, a roof over our heads, and all the frustration and disappointment that comes with raising a brood, and we call this “love”. **

The God you claim has neve given you an experience of His profound love is available to you at this very moment. All you have to do is open your heart as your pray for His Grace looking at His Love dying on the Cross for you - and, me, too. The ability to see the sunrise means a willingness to at least face the east - even if blind - you can feel its warmth on your face! To go inside and close the door and windows will not stop the sunrise - only your experience of it.
**
I have already conceded that God’s love may be in my midst and may have been for decades, but the synapses aren’t firing the way they should and the connection does not get from there to here. Maybe it is as simple as “opening one’s heart”, but my mind will not allow for simplicity. If I sabotage myself in the process, so be it; it’s the way He made me. So I have not denied the sunrise. I’m just not dazzled by it.

Limerick**

God bless,

 

[paulaf]

I am curious about how one scenario would be considered. What if woman develops eclampsia very early in her pregnancy? At its worst, this disease kills women and its only cure is delivery of the baby. What would happen if that required delivery had to be before the baby was viable outside the womb? It would certainly die. Now, I know that this does not happen very often, as fortunately, most women are still able to carry to late enough to give their babies a chance. Unfortunately, not all are. I guess because this was an issue that I have dealt with personally (DD was delivered 2 1/2 months early because of this), I cannot help but be curious as to how it would be regarded early in the pregnancy. Given the lack of desire on the parent’s part to kill their child, but the very real likelihood that the mother can not continue the pregnancy to viability and live, is that considered abortion?

Paula

 

[benedictus2]

abortion is murder, and therefore never okay! when a woman is raped, its not as if she can go out and murder the man who did it, so why should she be able to murder an innocent baby who did nothing to her? .

Because sadly, the rapist has right rights. The baby doesn’t. Yes, what a sick society we have.

 

[benedictus2]

I am curious about how one scenario would be considered. What if woman develops eclampsia very early in her pregnancy? At its worst, this disease kills women and its only cure is delivery of the baby. What would happen if that required delivery had to be before the baby was viable outside the womb? It would certainly die. Now, I know that this does not happen very often, as fortunately, most women are still able to carry to late enough to give their babies a chance. Unfortunately, not all are. I guess because this was an issue that I have dealt with personally (DD was delivered 2 1/2 months early because of this), I cannot help but be curious as to how it would be regarded early in the pregnancy. Given the lack of desire on the parent’s part to kill their child, but the very real likelihood that the mother can not continue the pregnancy to viability and live, is that considered abortion?
Paula

Just purely my opinion, delivering the baby and making every possible attempt to push it as late as possible and making all provisions ot ensure that there is a chance of survival, then it would not be abortion.

 

[benedictus2]

Cinette:

Have you never experienced love?

And in the manner of Pontious Pilate, Abandon quips: Love. What is that?
Please don’t do that - remember you would be adopting a human being or are you planning to adopt an “alien or an artificial intelligence”??
I wonder if Abadon intends breastfeeding the alien.

Yes, I agree - absolutely. - wait a minute you didn’t say that - the text has got mixed. No, that is not you Abbadon…
That’s right. It was me

Now that is YOU! Someone else’s message got entangled with yours. For a moment I thought you WERE INDEED HUMAN!! LOL!

Yes, it gets confusing when the quoting system does not work properly

 

[benedictus2]

Then I must call into serious question the moral integrity (or lack thereof) of the doctor, the psychiatrists and the psychologist.

You are right. LACK THEREOF.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, limerick,

This is truly sad - from start to finish.

limerick:
Quite right about the poets being “in business”. The fact that you connect art with commerce is a heads up that fabrication is afoot. I think human beings have been so pulverized with the idea that we must experience love in order to live an authentic life that it disturbs me greatly. I have grave doubts as to whether or not people understand what love is - me included - and that we settle for security, sex, a roof over our heads, and all the frustration and disappointment that comes with raising a brood, and we call this “love”.

I have already conceded that God’s love may be in my midst and may have been for decades, but the synapses aren’t firing the way they should and the connection does not get from there to here. Maybe it is as simple as “opening one’s heart”, but my mind will not allow for simplicity. If I sabotage myself in the process, so be it; it’s the way He made me. So I have not denied the sunrise. I’m just not dazzled by it.

Truly there is no room in the heart when it is replaced with a cynical outlook - everything is embittered. Look how you responded to my humor on putting poets, “…out of business…”. Just because someone goes into business to fill a need - does not necessarily mean that this need is now debased because of a commerical interest by some.

Just try ‘opening your heart’ - from your description, it could stand some fresh air…

God bless

 

[limerick]

Hi, limerick,

This is truly sad - from start to finish.

Quite right about the poets being “in business”. The fact that you connect art with commerce is a heads up that fabrication is afoot. I think human beings have been so pulverized with the idea that we must experience love in order to live an authentic life that it disturbs me greatly. I have grave doubts as to whether or not people understand what love is - me included - and that we settle for security, sex, a roof over our heads, and all the frustration and disappointment that comes with raising a brood, and we call this “love”.

I have already conceded that God’s love may be in my midst and may have been for decades, but the synapses aren’t firing the way they should and the connection does not get from there to here. Maybe it is as simple as “opening one’s heart”, but my mind will not allow for simplicity. If I sabotage myself in the process, so be it; it’s the way He made me. So I have not denied the sunrise. I’m just not dazzled by it.

Truly there is no room in the heart when it is replaced with a cynical outlook - everything is embittered. Look how you responded to my humor on putting poets, “…out of business…”. Just because someone goes into business to fill a need - does not necessarily mean that this need is now debased because of a commerical interest by some.

Just try ‘opening your heart’ - from your description, it could stand some fresh air…

God bless

**

Re: “Just because someone goes into business to fill a need - does not necessarily mean that this need is now debased because of a commercial interest by some.”**

My remark did not address an artist going into to business to “fill a need”; instead, I was making an observation on the sadness of the mass commercialization of art which, by increasing the availability of the work itself, decreases its inherent value.

On the other front, I believe that endurance, not fresh air, is my solution. Endurance requires patience. The fact that I experience the world differently than you do requires patience. The reality that God gave me this disposition, through both nature and nurture, requires patience. It appears that patience and endurance are core life lessons for me.

I agree with Bierce: “CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic’s eyes to improve his vision.”

Limerick

 

[St_Francis]

There was a case here in Australia a few years back, the act of carrying the baby to term was what was driving the mother to insanity and suicide.

This is one of those extreme situations which was presented to me a few years back: a 14-year-old girl who had been raped and was pregnant and threatening to commit suicide if she didn’t have an abortion…

If she had threatened to commit suicide if the *rapist *continued to live, would it have been all right to kill *him? *

(That’s another thing that gets to me: for most liberals, the innocent child has fewer rights than the guilty “father,” whom they think should not face the death penalty…)

 

[St_Francis]

Just purely my opinion, delivering the baby and making every possible attempt to push it as late as possible and making all provisions ot ensure that there is a chance of survival, then it would not be abortion.

Yes, waiting as long as possible, then delivering the baby by C-section if necessary. The problem with abortion is the act of killing. Performing a medical procedure on a woman, even knowing that the baby will quite probably die, is morally all right, because the act does not have as its goal the killing of the baby.

 

[St_Francis]

Scenario for you:

A mother with 4 children is in a bank with her new born child. A sick/perverted robber comes in to rob the bank and seeing the mother and child proposes this option to them. Only one will live. Either he shoots the mother or he shoots the child. He gives the mother this option. The choice is simple, if she dies all her 4 children will be motherless, if she lives she will still have 3 children to care for.

What is the good, moral, Godly choice in this situation?

For one of the children to realize that their mother is about to do something stupid and sacrifice herself and instead sacrifice themselves. Life without a mother for 3 children is worse than lifelessness for one child.

The mother is in the bank only with the newborn.

I would tell the shooter to shoot me. It would be more likely that I would be able to survive than that my newborn, who has his whole life in front of him, would be.

 

[kage_ar]

Well it’s legal in Australia so there was no problem. It was after thorough psychiatric evaluation and consultation with the doctor, two psychiatrists and a psychologist that the decision was made to go ahead with the late term abortion. It was VERY late term, around 7 - 8 months.

That case was written up in the news all over the world. The woman could not bear to give birth to a child who would be such an utter freak.

That child had dwarfism, the same as me and many members of my family and thousands of people in the world.

That was the brutal murder of someone because they were not genetically perfect, it is the case that pushed me over the last line into the pro life arena.

Prayers for the soul of that mother, that the hatred she has for the disabled has left her. Prayers for that baby, that he rests with God. Prayers for the doctors, who in a later poll still stated that people with dwarfism should be killed in the womb.

Today, 9 out of 10 babies with dwarfism are killed before they are born. I get up every day and work to save those babies.

 

[limerick]

This is one of those extreme situations which was presented to me a few years back: a 14-year-old girl who had been raped and was pregnant and threatening to commit suicide if she didn’t have an abortion…

If she had threatened to commit suicide if the *rapist *continued to live, would it have been all right to kill *him? *

(That’s another thing that gets to me: for most liberals, the innocent child has fewer rights than the guilty “father,” whom they think should not face the death penalty…)

***“Execution statistics . . . confirm that there is a social consensus against the death penalty for child rape. Nine States have permitted capital punishment for adult or child rape for some length of time between the Court’s 1972 Furman decision and today; yet no individual has been executed for the rape of an adult or child since 1964, and no execution for any other nonhomicide offense has been conducted since 1963.” ** ~ Cornell University Law School, Supreme Court of the United States, Kennedy v. Louisiana

Limerick*

 

[St_Francis]

***“Execution statistics . . . confirm that there is a social consensus against the death penalty for child rape. Nine States have permitted capital punishment for adult or child rape for some length of time between the Court’s 1972 Furman decision and today; yet no individual has been executed for the rape of an adult or child since 1964, and no execution for any other nonhomicide offense has been conducted since 1963.” *** ~ Cornell University Law School, Supreme Court of the United States, Kennedy v. Louisiana

Limerick

I think you *completely *missed my point.

 

[limerick]

I think you *completely *missed my point.

This from your post:

*"If she had threatened to commit suicide if the rapist continued to live, would it have been all right to kill him?"

I ask you: if the state would not kill him, who would? Would she? Would her father? What, sir, is your question about? All I did was to supply information with regard to the likely way in which the state would treat the criminal. Are you asking your question from the viewpoint that perhaps the perpetrator was never apprehended? Can you also entertain the idea that this girl would be playing her family, her support system, and the legal system by laying down such a ridiculous ultimatum?

Limerick*

 

[St_Francis]

This from your post:

"If she had threatened to commit suicide if the rapist continued to live, would it have been all right to kill him?"

I ask you: if the state would not kill him, who would? Would she? Would her father? What, sir, is your question about? All I did was to supply information with regard to the likely way in which the state would treat the criminal. Are you asking your question from the viewpoint that perhaps the perpetrator was never apprehended? Can you also entertain the idea that this girl would be playing her family, her support system, and the legal system by laying down such a ridiculous ultimatum?

Limerick

Others have proposed that a girl threatening suicide is justification for killing the child. However, no one would propose that it is justification for killing the cause of the problem–the rapist, right? But the other innocent person in the equation–the baby–it is all right to kill.

In the same way, those who oppose the death penalty even for those guilty of heinous crimes think that it would be all right to kill the baby.

I asked the question to show the absurdity of this type of “justification” for the deliberate and direct killing of a human being simply because he or she has not yet been born.

 

[Cinette]

I was so touched to receive the following letter from a friend of the couple concerned and I have asked friends to pray for them and I hope I will attract many more prayers.

The letter explains the situation:

Daniel Kiran Seabrook

On the 23rd February 2009, during the scheduled 20 week ultrasound, our little baby was diagnosed as having a congenital heart disease. This disease, Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome (HLHS) is, in the words of the Doctor, “incompatible with life”. This random condition affects 4 in every 250,000 babies. We have since met with a number of specialists in both India and South Africa and all confirm this diagnosis. The advice has been to abort the child. At the time of this difficult decision, God gave us this verse from Deu 30v19: “I am now giving you the choice between life and death, between Gods blessing and Gods curse, and I call heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Choose Life”

We therefore decided to continue with the pregnancy. We believe in a God who works miracles today. We are praying that he will heal our little son and come in faith before the church to ask for prayer for healing. We thank God for the joys we have experienced so far through this pregnancy and for the excitement of new life within Sarah.

We have learned to enjoy the “today” of life and appreciate the miracle of each human birth – something we took for granted before. In order to pray specifically for our little one, we have decided to give him a name before birth. His name is Daniel Kiran Seabrook. Daniel – because “God will be his Judge” and because in this trial of fire, there stand four people within the flames; Kiran (Sanskrit for “ray of light”) - because in faith we believe God will use this little one and this experience to reach out in love to those who do not know Him, and “Seabrook” - because - well - he’s our son!

The birth of our precious son is expected around the 02nd July 2009, in New Delhi.

Please pray with us: A miracle expected – Gods will accepted.

Thank you
David & Sarah Seabrook

It takes great faith and courage to take the decision which this couple has taken and I hope that little Daniel will be blessed. I intend to pray for the family until we receive the news of his birth.

Thanking you all for your prayers.

Blessings
Jeanne

 

[benedictus2]

That case was written up in the news all over the world. The woman could not bear to give birth to a child who would be such an utter freak.

That child had dwarfism, the same as me and many members of my family and thousands of people in the world.

That was the brutal murder of someone because they were not genetically perfect, it is the case that pushed me over the last line into the pro life arena.

Prayers for the soul of that mother, that the hatred she has for the disabled has left her. Prayers for that baby, that he rests with God. Prayers for the doctors, who in a later poll still stated that people with dwarfism should be killed in the womb.

Today, 9 out of 10 babies with dwarfism are killed before they are born. I get up every day and work to save those babies.

Wonderful, wonderful post! Kudos to you for standing up. What a sorry world we have where everyone seems to be buying into Hitlers propaganda and claim to be “decent” people. They condemn Hitler but proceed to do what he advocated