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MarcoPolo
Guest
I seem to recall that abstaining from meat on Lent Fridays is normative but not absolute. I can’t remember where I heard this. Does anyone know the correct answer? Is there a pertinent canon law #.
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thistle
Guest
Canon Law:
DAYS OF PENANCE
Can. 1249 All Christ’s faithful are obliged by divine law, each in his or her own way, to do penance. However, so that all may be joined together in a certain common practice of penance, days of penance are prescribed. On these days the faithful are in a special manner to devote themselves to prayer, to engage in works of piety and charity, and to deny themselves, by fulfilling their obligations more faithfully and especially by observing the fast and abstinence which the following canons prescribe.
Can. 1250 The days and times of penance for the universal Church are each Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.
Can. 1251 Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
Can. 1252 The law of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year. The law of fasting binds those who have attained their majority, until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Pastors of souls and parents are to ensure that even those who by reason of their age are not bound by the law of fasting and abstinence, are taught the true meaning of penance.
Can. 1253 The Episcopal Conference can determine more particular ways in which fasting and abstinence are to be observed. In place of abstinence or fasting it can substitute, in whole or in part, other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.
Catechism:
CCC 1438 The seasons and days of penance in the course of the liturgical year (Lent, and each Friday in memory of the death of the Lord) are intense moments of the Church’s penitential practice. These times are particularly appropriate for spiritual exercises, penitential liturgies, pilgrimages as signs of penance, voluntary self-denial such as fasting and almsgiving, and fraternal sharing (charitable and missionary works).
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Thanks, so do we know what the USCCB has said on other forms of penance? Catholic Culture echoes this as licit. Would Paul VI’s Paenitemini apply here? He wrote:penitence also through abstinence from meat and fasting, intends to ratify with its prescriptions other forms of penitence as well, provided that it seems opportune to episcopal conferences to replace the observance of fast and abstinence with exercises of prayer and works of charity.
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littlequestion
Guest
No, you can be just as mean as you are on other days. But you will still have to confess it.
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MarcoPolo
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Saintlucy
Guest
I was so tempted to say that. Thanks for saving me.No, you can be just as mean as you are on other days. But you will still have to confess it.
Yes, meat eaters are bound by this on the Fridays of Lent and Ash Wednesday. I’m having some tuna and salad.
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Corki
Guest
The USCCB affirms abstinance from meat for Lenten Fridays (and Ash Wednesday) and has not put forth alternatives.
usccb.org/lent/fast.shtml
Other forms of penance are encouraged for Fridays outside of Lent and for other days of Lent.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
There’s a difference between Fridays of Lent when abstaining from meat is mandatory and Fridays during the rest of the year when abstaining from meat is one option.
See usccb.org/lent/fast.shtml:
Fridays in Lent are obligatory days of complete abstinence (from meat) for all who have completed their 14th year.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Yes: On Penance and Abstinence.
In re the OP:
I believe, however, that one may be excused from abstinence and/or fast for reasons of health.
tee
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Malleus_01
Guest
Mal: Are we to do the minimum? Is that the question? What can we do as a minimum? Perhaps thats one of the main problems in the Church today. Our concern with doing only the minimum.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
If that. Sometimes it seems that people don’t even want to do the minimum and figure that if there is a situation whereby somebody doesn’t ‘have to’ follow (for example, pregnant and nursing mothers, people with medical illnesses, etc. are not ‘bound’ to fast/abstain) they then decide that if it’s all right for ‘those’ people to be exempt, then by golly, they can be exempt too ‘just because’ (usually with a mutter of 'Pharisees, over-strict, zealous, blind following of man-made laws" to boot.)
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Malleus_01
Guest
If that. Sometimes it seems that people don’t even want to do the minimum and figure that if there is a situation whereby somebody doesn’t ‘have to’ follow (for example, pregnant and nursing mothers, people with medical illnesses, etc. are not ‘bound’ to fast/abstain) they then decide that if it’s all right for ‘those’ people to be exempt, then by golly, they can be exempt too ‘just because’ (usually with a mutter of 'Pharisees, over-strict, zealous, blind following of man-made laws" to boot.)
Mal: Exactly. You know - when they relaxed the laws of abstinence for Saturday they said we no longer have to abstain from Meat BUT we are still supposed to offer a penance in place of abstinence. How many do? Thats why the Church has laws of Fast and Abstinence. Because if they dont make Laws - no one will do it. But make no mistake - on judgement day we will not be asked what we did as a minimum. You know yesterday someone on here asked what a good penance was for avoiding purgatory. that was a great question. This is one. Even though the modern Church relaxed these laws - Traditional Churches still bind the parishioners to the laws of Fast and Abstinence. And those who go to the modern Church can abide by those same laws without breaking any law of the modern Church. How many will? But really its up to us as Catholics to decide if we want to spend more or less time in Purgatory. I’d rather spend less. And if we do penance - we will do less. for some it may even mean their Salvation.
Luke Chapter 13
13:1. And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
13:2. And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things?
13:3. No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
13:4. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe and slew them: think you that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
13:5. No, I say to you: but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
13:6. He spoke also this parable: A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard: and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
13:7. And he said to the dresser of the vineyard: Behold, for these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down therefore. Why cumbereth it the ground?
13:8. But he answering, said to him: Lord, let it alone this year also, until I dig about it and dung it.
13:9. And if happily it bear fruit: but if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
13:10. And he was teaching in their synagogue on their sabbath.
Mal: Exactly. You know - when they relaxed the laws of abstinence for Saturday they said we no longer have to abstain from Meat BUT we are still supposed to offer a penance in place of abstinence. How many do? Thats why the Church has laws of Fast and Abstinence. Because if they dont make Laws - no one will do it. But make no mistake - on judgement day we will not be asked what we did as a minimum. You know yesterday someone on here asked what a good penance was for avoiding purgatory. that was a great question. This is one. Even though the modern Church relaxed these laws - Traditional Churches still bind the parishioners to the laws of Fast and Abstinence. And those who go to the modern Church can abide by those same laws without breaking any law of the modern Church. How many will? But really its up to us as Catholics to decide if we want to spend more or less time in Purgatory. I’d rather spend less. And if we do penance - we will do less. for some it may even mean their Salvation.
Luke Chapter 13
13:1. And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
13:2. And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things?
13:3. No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
13:4. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe and slew them: think you that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
13:5. No, I say to you: but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
13:6. He spoke also this parable: A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard: and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
13:7. And he said to the dresser of the vineyard: Behold, for these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down therefore. Why cumbereth it the ground?
13:8. But he answering, said to him: Lord, let it alone this year also, until I dig about it and dung it.
13:9. And if happily it bear fruit: but if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
13:10. And he was teaching in their synagogue on their sabbath.
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Malleus_01
Guest
Correction "when they relaxed the laws of abstinence for Saturday " Should say Friday
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MarcoPolo
Guest
No, that is not the question. I had another reason for asking.
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Malleus_01
Guest
Re: Is abstaining from mean on Lent Friday’s absolutely mandatory?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malleus 01
Mal: Are we to do the minimum? Is that the question?
No, that is not the question. I had another reason for asking.
Mal : At Catholic answers above there is in the Catholic Encyclopedia - the reason for Fast and Abstinence under “Abstinence” There are exceptions granted by the Church for various reasons - but the Church teaches penance for the good of our Souls. Because of fallen human nature - most people would never do penance. Thats just the way we are as humans. But since Scripture is clear that we must attone for our sins either in this life or in the next - that is why the Church has Laws of Fast and Abstinence. So the if you have a good reason - you can consult a priest tell him your reason and ask for a dispensation. You dont need to ask us. He may give you a substitute penance to perform rather than to fast. People who have to perform jobs of manual labor and need their strength can get these dispensations for example. The laws of the Church are there to strengthen us spiritually.
Pax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malleus 01
Mal: Are we to do the minimum? Is that the question?
No, that is not the question. I had another reason for asking.
Mal : At Catholic answers above there is in the Catholic Encyclopedia - the reason for Fast and Abstinence under “Abstinence” There are exceptions granted by the Church for various reasons - but the Church teaches penance for the good of our Souls. Because of fallen human nature - most people would never do penance. Thats just the way we are as humans. But since Scripture is clear that we must attone for our sins either in this life or in the next - that is why the Church has Laws of Fast and Abstinence. So the if you have a good reason - you can consult a priest tell him your reason and ask for a dispensation. You dont need to ask us. He may give you a substitute penance to perform rather than to fast. People who have to perform jobs of manual labor and need their strength can get these dispensations for example. The laws of the Church are there to strengthen us spiritually.
Pax
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Breviarylover
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Saintlucy
Guest
For goodness sake, why make it so difficult? We are obliged in the Universal Church to abstain from something we really like on Fridays in Lent. For instance, as a meat lover, I don’t eat meat on Fridays. In a addition, we are obliged to fast from food
and abstain Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. This is mostly to do with custom. A lot of people don’t eat meat or fish and some are vegans. It’s obvious.
and abstain Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. This is mostly to do with custom. A lot of people don’t eat meat or fish and some are vegans. It’s obvious.
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RoryMcKenzie56
Guest
Hi Malleus1,
I have some doubts about a statement you made almost in passing: “Even though the modern Church relaxed these laws - Traditional Churches still bind the parishioners to the laws of Fast and Abstinence.” If I am not mistaken, the Eastern Rite Churches in union with Rome are still bound by different norms. But all Latin Rite Churches, including the FSSP and SSPX to name the largest that use only the missal of 1962, cannot bind their parishioners to a stricter rule than the local bishop has declared. If you get any of the church calendars or the Angelus Press 1962 Missal published by the Society of St. Pius X, you see clearly that while outlining what the norms used to be, they clearly draw the distinction between those as suggestions and the modern norms which bind under pain of mortal sin, which have been changed by all of the U.S. bishops.
I do not bring this up except there are already enough misconceptions about the “Traditional Churches” without anyone getting the idea that traditional priests think they are outside the authority of the bishop in this disciplinary matter. One time I even went to the priest of our chapel about St. Patrick’s Day which happened to land on a Friday that year and pointed out that our bishop had dispensed us for the occasion. At that time, when I was new, I thought he might be critical. Not at all though. My priest just said, “He’s the bishop.”
Rory
I have some doubts about a statement you made almost in passing: “Even though the modern Church relaxed these laws - Traditional Churches still bind the parishioners to the laws of Fast and Abstinence.” If I am not mistaken, the Eastern Rite Churches in union with Rome are still bound by different norms. But all Latin Rite Churches, including the FSSP and SSPX to name the largest that use only the missal of 1962, cannot bind their parishioners to a stricter rule than the local bishop has declared. If you get any of the church calendars or the Angelus Press 1962 Missal published by the Society of St. Pius X, you see clearly that while outlining what the norms used to be, they clearly draw the distinction between those as suggestions and the modern norms which bind under pain of mortal sin, which have been changed by all of the U.S. bishops.
I do not bring this up except there are already enough misconceptions about the “Traditional Churches” without anyone getting the idea that traditional priests think they are outside the authority of the bishop in this disciplinary matter. One time I even went to the priest of our chapel about St. Patrick’s Day which happened to land on a Friday that year and pointed out that our bishop had dispensed us for the occasion. At that time, when I was new, I thought he might be critical. Not at all though. My priest just said, “He’s the bishop.”
Rory
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Malleus_01
Guest
<<<< I have some doubts about a statement you made almost in passing: “Even though the modern Church relaxed these laws - Traditional Churches still bind the parishioners to the laws of Fast and Abstinence.” If I am not mistaken, the Eastern Rite Churches in union with Rome are still bound by different norms. But all Latin Rite Churches, including the FSSP and SSPX to name the largest that use only the missal of 1962, cannot bind their parishioners to a stricter rule than the local bishop has declared. >>>>
Mal: I am not going to argue this point with you. The Fast and Abstinence laws in some Traditional Churches are binding. Its the same argument we always have about the same things. And of course you have some doubts about what I wrote just as I have some doubts about why you follow what you percieve to be “legitimate” authority. You give yourself away when you say “That use only the missal of 1962” as though that is the end all be all. You are not qualified to judge legitimacy so dont pretend that you are and neither will I.
Pax
Mal: I am not going to argue this point with you. The Fast and Abstinence laws in some Traditional Churches are binding. Its the same argument we always have about the same things. And of course you have some doubts about what I wrote just as I have some doubts about why you follow what you percieve to be “legitimate” authority. You give yourself away when you say “That use only the missal of 1962” as though that is the end all be all. You are not qualified to judge legitimacy so dont pretend that you are and neither will I.
Pax
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RoryMcKenzie56
Guest
Mal says:
Rory says:
Peace to you too, Malleus. No offense meant.
The same argument we always have about the same things? Maybe you are confusing me with someone else? I’m not trying to hide or give away my beliefs or identity or anything. I just couldn’t think of who you were talking about and I thought there might be some people here who could mistakenly take your statement to mean that groups like the SSPX consider themselves outside of episcopal authority regarding the Lenten observations. I wanted to clear up any possible misconceptions.
Only from what you say about the '62 missal can I now guess where you are coming from. Maybe you have some kind of reputation around here that I don’t know about. I have been a member here since '04, but my participation is sporadic. It never occurred to me that your probable position is sedevacantist of some kind. Even if it had occurred to me that these were the Traditional Churches to which you referred, it would still have been my interest to demonstrate that the SSPX accepts the authority of the local bishops in this matter.
Rory
Pax
Rory says:
Peace to you too, Malleus. No offense meant.
The same argument we always have about the same things? Maybe you are confusing me with someone else? I’m not trying to hide or give away my beliefs or identity or anything. I just couldn’t think of who you were talking about and I thought there might be some people here who could mistakenly take your statement to mean that groups like the SSPX consider themselves outside of episcopal authority regarding the Lenten observations. I wanted to clear up any possible misconceptions.
Only from what you say about the '62 missal can I now guess where you are coming from. Maybe you have some kind of reputation around here that I don’t know about. I have been a member here since '04, but my participation is sporadic. It never occurred to me that your probable position is sedevacantist of some kind. Even if it had occurred to me that these were the Traditional Churches to which you referred, it would still have been my interest to demonstrate that the SSPX accepts the authority of the local bishops in this matter.
Rory
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