Is almost everyone in Hell?

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The reason Ridgerunner’s response gives me hope is this: so many of my loved ones - friends and family alike - are not practicing Christians, much less Catholic. These are not natives in a jungle, these are catechized people, and good people - most all of them I know - who were raised Catholic or Christian, but left the faith. Something is keeping them from seeing the truth. No amount of evangelizing, threats or cajoling seems to have any effect on them (not that I ever give up on them, but by now a few have died apparently unreconciled). Yet, I and many who do practice the faith do not need threats or cajoling - whatever evangelization we had took root. Now in my case, this happened quite naturally. I did not have to struggle to overcome a lack of faith, thank God. But these others - my loved ones - what is preventing them from seeing things as clearly as rest of the faithful? Would God let them remain forever blindly separated? Is this Love? We make a choice, yes, but shouldn’t it be without the apparent impediments that afflict so many in this life as we know it? And when we finally do see things clearly, the way it really is, perhaps at the moment of death, maybe some will still refuse, but I cannot see how it could be that many.
 
I’ve never said that I went thru a hellish experience, I simply said that I experienced hell, I simply mean what I simply said.

It doesn’t matter if anyone believes what I write, but as I have said, I believe that God knew that I needed to know a little to even attempt to do what God chose me to do.
Real hell has extremely painful fires everywhere, have you been in such fire? I doubt it. If you mean that you have experienced a foretaste of hell, then that is acceptable and reasonable. God bless you.
 
After reading the bible multiple times and the cathechism it really seems almost everyone goes to hell does that seem right?
Actually scripture can easily be misread that way. But I haven’t found that theme in the catechism to any great degree. Thank God for His Church that gives us the true understanding. Hell is a radical possibility for those who adamantly, persistently, reject God and His love. But it’s never God’s will for man.
 
Actually scripture can easily be misread that way. But I haven’t found that theme in the catechism to any great degree. Thank God for His Church that gives us the true understanding. Hell is a radical possibility for those who adamantly, persistently, reject God and His love. But it’s never God’s will for man.
In the Diary of St. Faustina, Jesus tells her of the bitter grief that befalls Him at the loss of souls. God is not an indifferent entity who does not care one way or the other whether souls go to Heaven or Hell. He wants us to be with Him, hence the sacrifice of Jesus. He grieves when souls are lost to him, like parents who grieve when their children reject them.

Hell however stands as a testament to free will. There are souls that will reject God and end up there.
 
In the Diary of St. Faustina, Jesus tells her of the bitter grief that befalls Him at the loss of souls. God is not an indifferent entity who does not care one way or the other whether souls go to Heaven or Hell. He wants us to be with Him, hence the sacrifice of Jesus. He grieves when souls are lost to him, like parents who grieve when their children reject them.

Hell however stands as a testament to free will. There are souls that will reject God and end up there.
And, some would say, it is the uttermost act of hatred of those who choose hell, to deprive God of themselves. Those who do, know this. Following the thought a bit further, one who chooses hell is prideful to the extent that, confronted by the shortcomings and wrongs of his life, he says to God “I’ll forever take revenge by depriving you of myself, you who dared to confront my majesty in this way. I choose myself.”
 
I have no idea how many people are in hell, and I don’t think anybody on this earth does.

But as to its nature, I guess I’m inclined to find Ste Therese of Lisieux persuasive. She asserted that, at or about the point of death (possibly shortly thereafter?) one’s life is presented to a person fully and in its true nature. We understand it totally, and we understand how our sins were perhaps much worse than we thought they were; how much mercy was extended to us, and what we did about it. We recognize that we are totally unworthy to be in the presence of God.

We are then extended God’s mercy and love. We know we don’t deserve it. We know we didn’t earn it. We understand it fully, and how it heals but also stings our egos. We then have a clear choice. There is no mistaking it and its consequences. We can admit our faults and our need for mercy and God’s love, **or we can reject God’s mercy and choose ourselves as our eternal object of love; knowing full well that it’s also self-hate and hatred of God. We will cocoon ourselves in ourselves forever. **And the choice is absolutely clear and we make it in the full exercise of our faculties; enhanced by the clarity of what we have seen presented to us and the clarity of mind God gives us at that moment. So, everyone in hell, she says, is a clear-eyed volunteer. Nobody stumbles into it. We choose it. And why should we doubt this? After all, Lucifer and his cohort were a zillion times smarter than we are. They were in the presence of God, and were totally rational creatures. They weren’t emotional and stupid like we are. And yet, they chose eternal self-worship too, knowing full well what the choice meant.

Kind of hard to imagine anybody doing that; choosing hell. But one can a little, knowing how inclined to self-worship we are and how defiant we can be.

For some, perhaps most of us, we choose God but we don’t deem ourselves worthy to join Him in our present state. We therefore choose purgatory, as a total and clear-eyed volunteer, and we know what it will take for us to be purged of selfishness and our inclination to sin, and we know it will be hard, but we do it joyfully because our minds are totally clear. Not so very hard to imagine that. Not hard to picture oneself doing it. Not hard to think of oneself and how hard it might be to really purge oneself of one’s self-centeredness.

Now, if that’s all correct, then I would hazard a guess that not too many are in hell, relatively speaking (though there have been billions of people, which might up the numbers from what we might suppose). I would also guess that a very few go straight to heaven, and that the great mass of us will opt, yes, joyfully, for purgatory; not because we know it’s “safe on base” but because we really do want to love God the way He wants to be loved, and we want to attain that state. We know God wants us to bathe in His love and we want to present ourselves to Him in a way in which we can do that. But purgatory, it seems, is mainly a “state”; a state of self-purgation. We’re connected to God, but not as perfectly as our individual natures can do.

So, if that’s all so, then what are we doing with our lives here? Well, for one thing we’re developing habits of mind. Every little act of love enables us to love more. Every act of selfishness feeds the self-worship that can be so fatal. Every act of self-denial, of humility, strengthens our ability to accept that overwhelming forgiveness and love.

Anyway, that’s one way of seeing it.
Brilliant (as usual), sir. The bolded part scares the hell out of me-literally, I hope.
Can you imagine if you were there, and your choice was God or your favorite sin? I pray that I won’t be stupid enough to pick the latter. 😦
 
Real hell has extremely painful fires everywhere, have you been in such fire? I doubt it. If you mean that you have experienced a foretaste of hell, then that is acceptable and reasonable. God bless you.
I thank you for the blessing, I need all that I can get.

Hell is hell and I take it that you have not experienced hell and as I have said God knew I needed to know at least some, I did not “see” hell but I did “experience” hell.
 
I have no idea how many people are in hell, and I don’t think anybody on this earth does.

But as to its nature, I guess I’m inclined to find Ste Therese of Lisieux persuasive. She asserted that, at or about the point of death (possibly shortly thereafter?) one’s life is presented to a person fully and in its true nature. We understand it totally, and we understand how our sins were perhaps much worse than we thought they were; how much mercy was extended to us, and what we did about it. We recognize that we are totally unworthy to be in the presence of God.

We are then extended God’s mercy and love. We know we don’t deserve it. We know we didn’t earn it. We understand it fully, and how it heals but also stings our egos. We then have a clear choice. There is no mistaking it and its consequences. We can admit our faults and our need for mercy and God’s love, or we can reject God’s mercy and choose ourselves as our eternal object of love; knowing full well that it’s also self-hate and hatred of God. We will cocoon ourselves in ourselves forever. And the choice is absolutely clear and we make it in the full exercise of our faculties; enhanced by the clarity of what we have seen presented to us and the clarity of mind God gives us at that moment. So, everyone in hell, she says, is a clear-eyed volunteer. Nobody stumbles into it. We choose it. And why should we doubt this? After all, Lucifer and his cohort were a zillion times smarter than we are. They were in the presence of God, and were totally rational creatures. They weren’t emotional and stupid like we are. And yet, they chose eternal self-worship too, knowing full well what the choice meant.

Kind of hard to imagine anybody doing that; choosing hell. But one can a little, knowing how inclined to self-worship we are and how defiant we can be.

For some, perhaps most of us, we choose God but we don’t deem ourselves worthy to join Him in our present state. We therefore choose purgatory, as a total and clear-eyed volunteer, and we know what it will take for us to be purged of selfishness and our inclination to sin, and we know it will be hard, but we do it joyfully because our minds are totally clear. Not so very hard to imagine that. Not hard to picture oneself doing it. Not hard to think of oneself and how hard it might be to really purge oneself of one’s self-centeredness.

Now, if that’s all correct, then I would hazard a guess that not too many are in hell, relatively speaking (though there have been billions of people, which might up the numbers from what we might suppose). I would also guess that a very few go straight to heaven, and that the great mass of us will opt, yes, joyfully, for purgatory; not because we know it’s “safe on base” but because we really do want to love God the way He wants to be loved, and we want to attain that state. We know God wants us to bathe in His love and we want to present ourselves to Him in a way in which we can do that. But purgatory, it seems, is mainly a “state”; a state of self-purgation. We’re connected to God, but not as perfectly as our individual natures can do.

So, if that’s all so, then what are we doing with our lives here? Well, for one thing we’re developing habits of mind. Every little act of love enables us to love more. Every act of selfishness feeds the self-worship that can be so fatal. Every act of self-denial, of humility, strengthens our ability to accept that overwhelming forgiveness and love.

Anyway, that’s one way of seeing it.
Would you mind telling me in what book St. Therese supposedly said the things you say she said about death? I am quite familiar with the teaching of St. Therese and do not recall her ever saying such a thing about death. What you say she said about death is not even theologically sound, for once we die our fate has been sealed: we don’t die in one state of soul and then *after *death have the chance to change our state of soul – we are immediately judged at the moment of our death and we are judged based on sour soul at the point of death – not afterwards. Of course, just before one’s point of death God could send a grace of conversion that a sinner could cooperate with,and the sinner’s fate could be changed, but this is not what you are saying St. Therese teaches., and the Church does not teach that EVERY person receives this great grace of conversion from God at their point of death. What you say is not true – St. Therese never said such a thing. What you say sounds more like St. Faustina (whose private revelations I do not accept). Please give me your source of info, so I can look up the footnotes. What you say St. Therese said, she did not even say. Thanks and God bless.
 
And, some would say, it is the uttermost act of hatred of those who choose hell, to deprive God of themselves. Those who do, know this. Following the thought a bit further, one who chooses hell is prideful to the extent that, confronted by the shortcomings and wrongs of his life, he says to God “I’ll forever take revenge by depriving you of myself, you who dared to confront my majesty in this way. I choose myself.”
Thanks for this insightful post.

I will meditate on this during my daily Lenten reflections.
 
Brilliant (as usual), sir. The bolded part scares the hell out of me-literally, I hope.
Can you imagine if you were there, and your choice was God or your favorite sin? I pray that I won’t be stupid enough to pick the latter. 😦
I don’t think it’s a matter of “stupid” or “smart”. Ste Therese did not think in that way. For her it was a matter of whether we had learned to love. The following was written of Therese by one of the sisters in her convent. In reading it, remember that she’s not talking about real money, but about works.

“I had an immense dread of the judgments of God, and no argument of Soeur Therese could remove it. One day I put to her the following objection : “It is often said to us that in God s sight the angels them selves are not pure. How, therefore, can you expect me to be otherwise than filled with fear ? " She replied : " There is but one means of com pelling God not to judge us, and it is to appear before Him empty-handed.” " And how can that be done ? " " It is quite simple : lay nothing by, spend your treasures as you gain them. Were I to live to be eighty, I should always be poor, because I cannot economise. All my earnings are immediately spent on the ransom of souls. Were I to await the hour of death to offer my trifling coins for valuation, Our Lord would not fail to discover in them some base metal, and they would certainly have to be refined in Purgatory. Is it not recorded of certain great Saints that, on appearing before the Tribunal of God, their hands laden with merit, they have yet been sent to that place of expia tion, because in God s Eyes all our justice is unclean ? " " But,” I replied, " if God docs not judge our good actions, He will judge our bad ones." " Do not say that ! Our Lord is Justice itself, and if He does not judge our good actions, neither will He judge our bad ones. It seems to me, that for Victims of Love there will be no judgment. God will rather hasten to reward with eternal delights His own Love which He will behold burning in their hearts." "To enjoy such a privilege, would it suffice to repeat that Act of Oblation which you have com posed ? : " Oh, no ! words do not suffice. To be a true Victim of Love we must surrender ourselves entirely. . . . Love will consume us only in the measure of our self -surrender.

Now, how are we to take that? In a way, it’s more frightening than the “theology of accounting” into which we so easily fall; a balancing of sins and merits with a bear trap under the snow at the end. Therese is here talking about love of God. She also said (and I’ll have to look up the quote for some, and I will if need be) that if she had committed every sin there was, she would not fear hell because she loves God.

That’s just unacceptable in the “theology of accounting and Divine bear traps”. But how do we manage to “love God”? Well, as the whole Catholic world learned after her death and would do well to learn agagin, she talked about her “Little Way”. She did not expect any sort of drama in it. She expected to show it in the little things of life, and not just to show it in the sense of “show it off” to a God to whom the greatest human things are trifles, but to show herself and those who saw her. St. Thomas Aquinas said that most virtues and vices are matters of habit. I don’t know that Ste Therese ever said that in quite the same way, but her life was that. She always sought humility; an internal humility, not an external one. She never hesitated to say what she thought. She developed the habit of life of offering everything she did to God, telling Him and herself that it was out of love for Him. How was it out of love for Him? Because, she believed, that’s what He wanted of her. Indeed, she often went out of her way to take on unpleasant or lowly tasks, but always in the consciousness of why she was doing it. But she didn’t make a show of it. Sometimes she pretended to prefer some worse task to some better one, or to have a particular affection for someone she didn’t much like. But always, it was her offering to God.

And Luigi, it’s really not too hard to think how we can do that. It’s much harder to do, of course. But it’s accessible to all. We can so easily look on our lives as having been not very much. Objectively, and on the Divine scale, we’re right in thinking that. I have no doubt that Pope Francis feels exactly the same way, and will, no matter what he accomplishes. But Ste Therese tells us we can do the little things. And she really did develop, in herself, and with God’s grace, the ability to show her love of God in those little ways. And since she did so, she had no fear of hell. Not even of purgatory. But that’s another story.
 
Would you mind telling me in what book St. Therese supposedly said the things you say she said about death? I am quite familiar with the teaching of St. Therese and do not recall her ever saying such a thing about death. What you say she said about death is not even theologically sound, for once we die our fate has been sealed: we don’t die in one state of soul and then *after *death have the chance to change our state of soul – we are immediately judged at the moment of our death and we are judged based on sour soul at the point of death – not afterwards. Of course, just before one’s point of death God could send a grace of conversion that a sinner could cooperate with,and the sinner’s fate could be changed, but this is not what you are saying St. Therese teaches., and the Church does not teach that EVERY person receives this great grace of conversion from God at their point of death. What you say is not true – St. Therese never said such a thing. What you say sounds more like St. Faustina (whose private revelations I do not accept). Please give me your source of info, so I can look up the footnotes. What you say St. Therese said, she did not even say. Thanks and God bless.
Having never read anything by or about St. Faustina (negligence on my part, and something I should remedy) I cannot affirm that I got any of this from her.

I’m not too much into your challenge tonight, particularly since I am not sure I didn’t give away Ste Therese’s writings and those things written about her. But you have one point; I ought to buy them again if, indeed, I did that. A good Lenten thing to do.

But while we’re waiting, maybe just a few tidbits that were easy to find online, pending my being able to give the proper citations in a more scholarly manner. I am sure you will recognize the sources.

“To me, He has given his Infinite Mercy, and it is in this ineffable mirror that I contemplate his other divine attributes. Therein all appear to me radiant with Love. His Justice, even more perhaps than the rest, seems to me to be clothed with Love.” In these words she expresses herself in the last lines of The Story of a Soul: “I have only to open the Holy Gospels and at once I breathe the perfume of Jesus’ life, and then I know which way to run; and it is not to the first place, but to the last, that I hasten…. I feel that even had I on my conscience every crime one could commit… my heart broken with sorrow, I would throw myself into the arms of my Saviour Jesus, because I know that he loves the Prodigal Son” who returns to him."

I like this:
“When our great hour comes”, as St. Therese writes to Abbe Roulland, missionary in China, “if only we trust, the Blessed Virgin will obtain “the grace of making an act of perfect love” should we have “some trace of human weakness” and so will we reach heaven immediately after death.”

And this:
“I assure you that the good Lord is much kinder than you can imagine. He is satisfied with a glance, with a sigh of love… In regard to myself, I find it easy to practice perfection, because I have learned that the way to Jesus is through His Heart. Consider a small child who has vexed his mother by a display of bad temper or disobedience. If the child hides in a corner through fear of punishment, he feels that his mother will not forgive him. But if instead, he extends his little arms towards her and with a smile cries out: ‘Love, kiss me, mamma, I will not do it again,’ will not his mother press the little one to her heart with tenderness, and forget what the child has done? And yet, though she knows very well that her dear little one will misbehave again at the first opportunity, that means nothing if the child appeals to her heart. He will never be punished…”

I realize the following is about Purgatory, not hell, but it tells a lot more than about purgatory per se:

Once St. Therese had a confrontation regarding this topic with Sr. Marie Febronia, who not only was sixty-seven years old but also was sub-prioress. She had heard that St. Therese encouraged the novices to believe that they could go straight to heaven. She did not like this as she considered this kind of confidence presumptuous, and thus she reproached St Therese. St Therese tried lovingly and calmly to explain to Sr. Febronia her point of view but with no success as Sr. Febronia clung to belief. For St. Therese God was more Father than Judge, and she took the liberty of finally responding, “My sister, if you look for the justice of God you will get it. The soul will receive from God exactly what she desires.”
The year had not passed when, in January 1892, Sr. M. Febronia together with other sisters fell prey to the flu and died. Three months later Sr. Therese had a dream which she related to her Mother Prioress and which was then documented: “O my Mother, my Sr. M Febronia came to me last night and asked that we should pray for her:. She is in Purgatory, surely because she had trusted too little in the mercy of the good Lord. Through her imploring behavior and her profound looks, it seemed she wanted to say, You were right. I am now delivered up to the full justice of God but it is my fault. If I had listened to you I would not be here now.”

But you’re right. I will need to re-purchase the books I once had so I can quote chapter, verse and line.

In the meanwhile, i will contemplate what you have said. I will, in particular, contemplate what the “moment of death” is to God, who is outside time. There’s a lot to be curious about in that. Some, of course, give credence to the “near death experiences” in which time seems to fail in the measures we tend to give it. When is the moment of death? A very good question. We have a pretty good idea (though certainly not a perfect one) of when it is physically. But in terms of our encounter with God? When does it start? When does it end? I’m not yet persuaded that we know.
 
I found this from Fr. Robert Barron, which again, gives me hope.

wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/March-2011/Theology-Is-Hell-Crowded-or-Empty.aspx

Its called: Theology: Is Hell Crowded or Empty, written in response to a book apparently promoting Universal Salvation by Rob Bell. Fr. Barron gives a very brief historical synopsis of how the Church’s understanding developed, leading up to Von Balthasar:

"Balthasar argued that, given what God has acclomplished in Christ, we may reasonably hope that all people will be saved. The condemnation of apokatastasis compelled him to pull back from saying we know all will be saved, but his keen sensitivity to the dramatic power of the cross convinced him that we may entertain the lively and realistic hope that all people will eventually be drawn into divine love."

"My own conviction is that Balthasar has this more or less right. Catholic doctrine is that Hell exists, but yet the Church has never claimed to know if any human being is actually in Hell. When the Church says that Hell exists, it means that the definitive rejection of God’s love is a real possibility. ‘Hell’ or ‘Gehenna’ are spatial metaphors for the lonely and sad condition of having definitively refused the offer of the divine life. But is there anyone in this state of being? We don’t know for sure. We are in fact permitted to hope and to pray that all people will finally surrender to the alluring beauty of God’s grace… And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down even the most recalcitrant sinner."

Will this sway the staunch traditionalist(s) among us? Probably not, but thankfully, I am not so selective or restricted.
 
Having never read anything by or about St. Faustina (negligence on my part, and something I should remedy) I cannot affirm that I got any of this from her.

I’m not too much into your challenge tonight, particularly since I am not sure I didn’t give away Ste Therese’s writings and those things written about her. But you have one point; I ought to buy them again if, indeed, I did that. A good Lenten thing to do.

But while we’re waiting, maybe just a few tidbits that were easy to find online, pending my being able to give the proper citations in a more scholarly manner. I am sure you will recognize the sources.

“To me, He has given his Infinite Mercy, and it is in this ineffable mirror that I contemplate his other divine attributes. Therein all appear to me radiant with Love. His Justice, even more perhaps than the rest, seems to me to be clothed with Love.” In these words she expresses herself in the last lines of The Story of a Soul: “I have only to open the Holy Gospels and at once I breathe the perfume of Jesus’ life, and then I know which way to run; and it is not to the first place, but to the last, that I hasten…. I feel that even had I on my conscience every crime one could commit… my heart broken with sorrow, I would throw myself into the arms of my Saviour Jesus, because I know that he loves the Prodigal Son” who returns to him."

I like this:
“When our great hour comes”, as St. Therese writes to Abbe Roulland, missionary in China, “if only we trust, the Blessed Virgin will obtain “the grace of making an act of perfect love” should we have “some trace of human weakness” and so will we reach heaven immediately after death.”

And this:
“I assure you that the good Lord is much kinder than you can imagine. He is satisfied with a glance, with a sigh of love… In regard to myself, I find it easy to practice perfection, because I have learned that the way to Jesus is through His Heart. Consider a small child who has vexed his mother by a display of bad temper or disobedience. If the child hides in a corner through fear of punishment, he feels that his mother will not forgive him. But if instead, he extends his little arms towards her and with a smile cries out: ‘Love, kiss me, mamma, I will not do it again,’ will not his mother press the little one to her heart with tenderness, and forget what the child has done? And yet, though she knows very well that her dear little one will misbehave again at the first opportunity, that means nothing if the child appeals to her heart. He will never be punished…”

I realize the following is about Purgatory, not hell, but it tells a lot more than about purgatory per se:

Once St. Therese had a confrontation regarding this topic with Sr. Marie Febronia, who not only was sixty-seven years old but also was sub-prioress. She had heard that St. Therese encouraged the novices to believe that they could go straight to heaven. She did not like this as she considered this kind of confidence presumptuous, and thus she reproached St Therese. St Therese tried lovingly and calmly to explain to Sr. Febronia her point of view but with no success as Sr. Febronia clung to belief. For St. Therese God was more Father than Judge, and she took the liberty of finally responding, “My sister, if you look for the justice of God you will get it. The soul will receive from God exactly what she desires.”
The year had not passed when, in January 1892, Sr. M. Febronia together with other sisters fell prey to the flu and died. Three months later Sr. Therese had a dream which she related to her Mother Prioress and which was then documented: “O my Mother, my Sr. M Febronia came to me last night and asked that we should pray for her:. She is in Purgatory, surely because she had trusted too little in the mercy of the good Lord. Through her imploring behavior and her profound looks, it seemed she wanted to say, You were right. I am now delivered up to the full justice of God but it is my fault. If I had listened to you I would not be here now.”

But you’re right. I will need to re-purchase the books I once had so I can quote chapter, verse and line.

In the meanwhile, i will contemplate what you have said. I will, in particular, contemplate what the “moment of death” is to God, who is outside time. There’s a lot to be curious about in that. Some, of course, give credence to the “near death experiences” in which time seems to fail in the measures we tend to give it. When is the moment of death? A very good question. We have a pretty good idea (though certainly not a perfect one) of when it is physically. But in terms of our encounter with God? When does it start? When does it end? I’m not yet persuaded that we know.
I am familiar with these quotes of St. Therese and agree wholeheartedly with them. But St. Therese did not say what you attributed to her in your other post about her – she really didn’t. I think our first encounter with God begins before we are born, when He carves us in the palm of His hand; and that our encounter with Him never ever ends if we remain his children, that is to say, if we don’t end up in hell. He says if we deny Him in this life He will deny us in the next: so if we don’t deny Him and His words, if we obey Him, then we shall always be with Him. But if we deny Him and His words, if we disobey him grievously and do not repent before death, He will deny us, and we will be separated from Him for all eternity in hell. – we will have no more encounter with Him, we will be left all alone. His mercy, however, does effect those in hell, for He does not allow the damned to suffer any greater torments then justice demands … and the devil would certainly inflict greater torments on them, if God in HIs mercy were not to check the devil. God bless you.
 
I found this from Fr. Robert Barron, which again, gives me hope.

wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/March-2011/Theology-Is-Hell-Crowded-or-Empty.aspx

Its called: Theology: Is Hell Crowded or Empty, written in response to a book apparently promoting Universal Salvation by Rob Bell. Fr. Barron gives a very brief historical synopsis of how the Church’s understanding developed, leading up to Von Balthasar:

"Balthasar argued that, given what God has acclomplished in Christ, we may reasonably* hope *that all people will be saved. The condemnation of apokatastasis compelled him to pull back from saying we know all will be saved, but his keen sensitivity to the dramatic power of the cross convinced him that we may entertain the lively and realistic hope that all people will eventually be drawn into divine love."

"My own conviction is that Balthasar has this more or less right. Catholic doctrine is that Hell exists, but yet the Church has never claimed to know if any human being is actually in Hell. When the Church says that Hell exists, it means that the definitive rejection of God’s love is a real possibility. ‘Hell’ or ‘Gehenna’ are spatial metaphors for the lonely and sad condition of having definitively refused the offer of the divine life. But is there anyone in this state of being? We don’t know for sure. We are in fact permitted to hope and to pray that all people will finally surrender to the alluring beauty of God’s grace… And yet, we may, indeed we should, hope that God’s grace will, in the end, wear down even the most recalcitrant sinner."

Will this sway the staunch traditionalist(s) among us? Probably not, but thankfully, I am not so selective or restricted.
You are very unjust to speak of traditionalist this way, christofirst. True traditionalists possess the** true **Faith (unlike modernists) and so are the **most free **people in the whole world. And I really wish you would not bring the error of Universal Salvation into this thread, so that the less informed among us will not be misled and fall.

EDIT: And it is you and the Modernists like Von Baltahsar who are selective – not true Traditionalists. True Traditionalist accept the whole and entire teaching of Christ and the Apostles as handed down to the Saints – not just the parts that they like. Jesus Christ said that in the end there WILL BE gnashing of teeth and weeping – He did NOT say that there MAY BE gnashing of teeth and weeping. This means that truly some will be found in hell gnashing their teeth and weeping – so please cut the Von Baltahsar garbage out – there is no hope that ALL people will end up together in heaven by the end of the world when Jesus Himself speaks the way that He does in the Scriptures about the gnashing of teeth, etc… Be warned, you will be held accountable for misleading souls if you promote modernism, christochrist. God bless you.
 
You are very unjust to speak of traditionalist this way, christofirst. True traditionalists possess the** true **Faith (unlike modernists) and so are the **most free **people in the whole world. And I really wish you would not bring the error of Universal Salvation into this thread, so that the less informed among us will not be misled and fall.

EDIT: And it is you and the Modernists like Von Baltahsar who are selective – not true Traditionalists. True Traditionalist accept the whole and entire teaching of Christ and the Apostles as handed down to the Saints – not just the parts that they like. Jesus Christ said that in the end there WILL BE gnashing of teeth and weeping – He did NOT say that there MAY BE gnashing of teeth and weeping. This means that truly some will be found in hell gnashing their teeth and weeping – so please cut the Von Baltahsar garbage out – there is no hope that ALL people will end up together in heaven by the end of the world when Jesus Himself speaks the way that He does in the Scriptures about the gnashing of teeth, etc… Be warned, you will be held accountable for misleading souls if you promote modernism, christochrist. God bless you.
Ready, God bless you too, you are a good Christian soldier, but you must appreciate how frustrating it can be to discuss such things with you only on your terms. This is a simplistic analogy, but from my point of view, such extreme traditionalism as you seem to hold would be the equivalent of my raising the British flag over my house because I decided the American Revolution was not legitimate. Any time my American neighbors and I had a disagreement over the law, I could then simply declare, “I do not recognize that law because it was written and passed after the Revolutionary War,” or “That law does not apply to me because I do not acknowledge the legitimacy of the governing administration which enacted that particular law.”

Having discourse with you is a little like talking with someone who just arrived from the past in a time machine. I’m a Catholic living today in 2014. I am not promoting Universal Salvation, as much as I wish it could somehow occur. We can certainly disagree on the potential population of hell, and you have good sources to back up your point of view, but to summarily dismiss any possibility but your own by virtue of the dubious claim of Modernism is also very unjust. What authority has been given to you to judge and determine what and who shall be condemned and dismissed as a Modernist?
 
After reading the bible multiple times and the cathechism it really seems almost everyone goes to hell does that seem right?
Personally I come to the opposite conclusion, because that would make sin greater than the saviour but I see Paul teaching the opposite …

Romans 5:17-18 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
 
I am familiar with these quotes of St. Therese and agree wholeheartedly with them. But St. Therese did not say what you attributed to her in your other post about her – she really didn’t.
I wonder if Ridgerunner is thinking of Catherine of Sienna who had visions showing her that people chose their final destination at death, but that their choices in life had prepared some to embrace the mercy of God, and some to embrace hell. Catherine of Sienna, however, had a pessimistic view of those that had rejected God in this life …

“It’s interesting to note how the Father shows Catherine that as each person dies he or she actually rushes to where they want to be. In a very real way each person chooses their own destiny over the course of their lifetime and, at the moment of death, embraces what has truly become their choice: ‘So no one waits to be judged. All receive their appointed place as they leave this life. They taste it and possess it even before they leave their bodies at the moment of death: the damned in hate and despair; the perfect in love, with the light of faith and trusting in the blood. And the imperfect, in mercy and with the same faith, come to that place called purgatory’.” [Martin, Ralph. The Fulfillment of All Desire: A Guidebook to God Based on the Wisdom of the Saints (Kindle Locations 964-967). Emmaus Road Publishing. Kindle Edition.]
 
I am familiar with these quotes of St. Therese and agree wholeheartedly with them. But St. Therese did not say what you attributed to her in your other post about her – she really didn’t. I think our first encounter with God begins before we are born, when He carves us in the palm of His hand; and that our encounter with Him never ever ends if we remain his children, that is to say, if we don’t end up in hell. He says if we deny Him in this life He will deny us in the next: so if we don’t deny Him and His words, if we obey Him, then we shall always be with Him. But if we deny Him and His words, if we disobey him grievously and do not repent before death, He will deny us, and we will be separated from Him for all eternity in hell. – we will have no more encounter with Him, we will be left all alone. His mercy, however, does effect those in hell, for He does not allow the damned to suffer any greater torments then justice demands … and the devil would certainly inflict greater torments on them, if God in HIs mercy were not to check the devil. God bless you.
Notwithstanding that you and I have different views of what Ste Therese’s expressions add up to, I think we can stipulate to these things:
  1. We do not agree on the mechanics/timing of redemptive acts or damnation as Ste Therese saw them.
  2. Ste Therese could reasonably be viewed as a countercurrent to what one might think of as the somewhat extreme “accountancy” view of salvation prevalent among many Catholics in her time.
  3. Her emphasis on the loving and merciful nature of God had a very large effect on the faithful when her autobiographical and biographical materials were published, and rightly so.
  4. Until I replenish my library (I believe I gave those books to my daughter) I’m not able to properly give chapter and verse.
 
I wonder if Ridgerunner is thinking of Catherine of Sienna who had visions showing her that people chose their final destination at death, but that their choices in life had prepared some to embrace the mercy of God, and some to embrace hell. Catherine of Sienna, however, had a pessimistic view of those that had rejected God in this life …

“It’s interesting to note how the Father shows Catherine that as each person dies he or she actually rushes to where they want to be. In a very real way each person chooses their own destiny over the course of their lifetime and, at the moment of death, embraces what has truly become their choice: ‘So no one waits to be judged. All receive their appointed place as they leave this life. They taste it and possess it even before they leave their bodies at the moment of death: the damned in hate and despair; the perfect in love, with the light of faith and trusting in the blood. And the imperfect, in mercy and with the same faith, come to that place called purgatory’.” [Martin, Ralph. The Fulfillment of All Desire: A Guidebook to God Based on the Wisdom of the Saints (Kindle Locations 964-967). Emmaus Road Publishing. Kindle Edition.]
I am at a disadvantage here in no longer possessing my Ste Therese “library”. I am confident St Catherine was not the source of my understanding, but the similarity is interesting.

It’s interesting too, in thinking about all of this, to consider whether there is a human tendency to fall to one extreme or another when it comes to living a truly Christian life. On the one hand, we have what I think of as the “accountancy” approach; when it comes to judgment. Is the ledger in the black or in the red; God being the Grand Auditor? On the other, we can think of the notion that “God’s mercy covers all”. Both, it seems to me, are fundamentally protestant views. Both, it seems to me, are attempts to reduce God to human scale, and both can (in the widest sense) be considered “pagan” inasmuch as paganism’s central feature is control/manipulation of the gods.

So, what is it to truly love God? What is it to keep His commandments? Wish I had time right now to explore that with you, but I don’t. Perhaps I’ll be able to return later.
 
I wonder if Ridgerunner is thinking of Catherine of Sienna who had visions showing her that people chose their final destination at death, but that their choices in life had prepared some to embrace the mercy of God, and some to embrace hell. Catherine of Sienna, however, had a pessimistic view of those that had rejected God in this life …

“It’s interesting to note how the Father shows Catherine that as each person dies he or she actually rushes to where they want to be. In a very real way each person chooses their own destiny over the course of their lifetime and, at the moment of death, embraces what has truly become their choice: ‘So no one waits to be judged. All receive their appointed place as they leave this life. They taste it and possess it even before they leave their bodies at the moment of death: the damned in hate and despair; the perfect in love, with the light of faith and trusting in the blood. And the imperfect, in mercy and with the same faith, come to that place called purgatory’.” [Martin, Ralph. The Fulfillment of All Desire: A Guidebook to God Based on the Wisdom of the Saints (Kindle Locations 964-967). Emmaus Road Publishing. Kindle Edition.]
What Ridgerunner attributed to St. Therese doesn’t sound to me like St. Catherine of Sienna either. I don’t even think that it was Sr. Faustina who said what he said either. God bless you.
 
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