Is almost everyone in Hell?

[ready]

Notwithstanding that you and I have different views of what Ste Therese’s expressions add up to, I think we can stipulate to these things:

1. We do not agree on the mechanics/timing of redemptive acts or damnation as Ste Therese saw them.
2. Ste Therese could reasonably be viewed as a countercurrent to what one might think of as the somewhat extreme “accountancy” view of salvation prevalent among many Catholics in her time.
3. Her emphasis on the loving and merciful nature of God had a very large effect on the faithful when her autobiographical and biographical materials were published, and rightly so.
4. Until I replenish my library (I believe I gave those books to my daughter) I’m not able to properly give chapter and verse.

But St. Therese NEVER even said what you attribute to her. I agree with EVERYTHING she has ever said and have no problem with any of HER teachings. God bless you.

 

[ready]

I am at a disadvantage here in no longer possessing my Ste Therese “library”. I am confident St Catherine was not the source of my understanding, but the similarity is interesting.

It’s interesting too, in thinking about all of this, to consider whether there is a human tendency to fall to one extreme or another when it comes to living a truly Christian life. On the one hand, we have what I think of as the “accountancy” approach; when it comes to judgment. Is the ledger in the black or in the red; God being the Grand Auditor? On the other, we can think of the notion that “God’s mercy covers all”. Both, it seems to me, are fundamentally protestant views. Both, it seems to me, are attempts to reduce God to human scale, and both can (in the widest sense) be considered “pagan” inasmuch as paganism’s central feature is control/manipulation of the gods.

So, what is it to truly love God? What is it to keep His commandments? Wish I had time right now to explore that with you, but I don’t. Perhaps I’ll be able to return later.

Jesus Himself has told us that to love Him is “to keep His words.” Therefore, if we do not keep His commands, then we do not love Him … and if we do not love Him how can we expect to be saved without being utterly presumptuous? God bless you.

 

[christofirst]

I am at a disadvantage here in no longer possessing my Ste Therese “library”. I am confident St Catherine was not the source of my understanding, but the similarity is interesting.

It’s interesting too, in thinking about all of this, to consider whether there is a human tendency to fall to one extreme or another when it comes to living a truly Christian life. On the one hand, we have what I think of as the “accountancy” approach; when it comes to judgment. Is the ledger in the black or in the red; God being the Grand Auditor? On the other, we can think of the notion that “God’s mercy covers all”. Both, it seems to me, are fundamentally protestant views. Both, it seems to me, are attempts to reduce God to human scale, and both can (in the widest sense) be considered “pagan” inasmuch as paganism’s central feature is control/manipulation of the gods.

So, what is it to truly love God? What is it to keep His commandments? Wish I had time right now to explore that with you, but I don’t. Perhaps I’ll be able to return later.

You raise interesting points. It seems to me that there is a fear coming from the camp of those who see God only as the harsh Judge, that by admitting the possibility of something approaching universal salvation, it will give rise to increased sin. Sort of like, “If everyone goes to Heaven anyway, nothing I do in this life matters. I can sin as much as I want!” Nothing could be further from the truth! In this debate, I am not denying the existence of Hell, and certainly not the existence of Purgatory either. Our lives matter, and the things we do have consequences. My opinion in this matter is based on the love of God, as imperfectly as I dare say I understand it, and not on the mistaken notion that I can somehow “pull a fast one” over on God. Heaven forbid!

But seeing God as the harsh Judge, and living one’s life accordingly, is perhaps the safest way to live. And I suppose I do live my life that way, inasmuch as I try to follow the Commandments and the rules of the Church. This does not prevent or conflict with the hope that I have, that almost everyone is not in Hell. And St. Therese did say something to the effect that her favorite saints were those who “stole Heaven,” which indicates to me her understanding of Mercy, upon which I too rely.

 

[ready]

What authority has been given to you to judge and determine what and who shall be condemned and dismissed as a Modernist?

Jesus Himself has taught that their WILL BE weeping and gnashing of teeth – He did not teach that their MAY BE weeping and gnashing of teeth and He says other things that indicate that what you say is wrong (e.g. the way to heaven is narrow and few find it). He is my authority and I am merely going by His authority, which you seem to be rejecting by placing the teachings of Von Balthasar and Fr. Barron above His. I follow the 2,000 years of tradition handed down to the saints and do not ignore or deny one truth found in that tradition. I do not ignore St. Paul’s words that we must keep the traditions (teachings) of the Church. I will never give into Modernism. God bless you.

 

[christofirst]

Jesus Himself has taught that their WILL BE weeping and gnashing of teeth – He did not teach that their MAY BE weeping and gnashing of teeth and He says other things that indicate that what you say is wrong (e.g. the way to heaven is narrow and few find it). He is my authority and I am merely going by His authority, which you seem to be rejecting by placing the teachings of Von Balthasar and Fr. Barron above His. I follow the 2,000 years of tradition handed down to the saints and do not ignore or deny one truth found in that tradition. I do not ignore St. Paul’s words that we must keep the traditions (teachings) of the Church. I will never give into Modernism. God bless you.

Jesus did say there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unrepentant, but He did not say how many that will eventually be, and God wills that all be saved. The way to Heaven is narrow and few find it, but with God, all things are possible. How do we reconcile the negative with the positive? Jesus gave authority to Catholic Church, but you are precluding a good portion of the saints, teachers and clerics because you have decided on your own they do not agree with your interpretation. How we can discuss this matter if you reject everyone who disagrees with your position, and attempt to justify it with the very Church with which you currently find so much fault?

 

[Tom_Baum]

christofirst

You wrote, “But seeing God as the harsh Judge, and living one’s life accordingly, is perhaps the safest way to live. And I suppose I do live my life that way, inasmuch as I try to follow the Commandments and the rules of the Church. This does not prevent or conflict with the hope that I have, that almost everyone is not in Hell.”

One of Jesus’s parables could be said to speak about “God as the harsh Judge, and living one’s life accordingly, is perhaps the safest way to live” and the one that was afraid of God, buried his talent and one could say that living the “safe way” might not be quite the “safe way” that one thought it to be.

Jesus also spoke about “the measure that you measure with will be measured out to you”, could be that Jesus meant what He said here.

I stake absolutely everything on God having a Plan that is GOOD NEWS and is something that ALL will, ultimately, be thankful for.

Some seem to think that I am saying that none will go thru Judgement,what I am saying is that we will ALL go thru Judgement.

 

[Ridgerunner]

But St. Therese NEVER even said what you attribute to her. I agree with EVERYTHING she has ever said and have no problem with any of HER teachings. God bless you.

You’re wrong. But it was not my purpose to challenge what you choose to believe about salvation theology. I obviously touched a nerve.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Jesus Himself has taught that their WILL BE weeping and gnashing of teeth – He did not teach that their MAY BE weeping and gnashing of teeth and He says other things that indicate that what you say is wrong (e.g. the way to heaven is narrow and few find it). He is my authority and I am merely going by His authority, which you seem to be rejecting by placing the teachings of Von Balthasar and Fr. Barron above His. I follow the 2,000 years of tradition handed down to the saints and do not ignore or deny one truth found in that tradition. I do not ignore St. Paul’s words that we must keep the traditions (teachings) of the Church. I will never give into Modernism. God bless you.

Wasn’t everything in the “2,000 years of tradition” at one time “modern”?

 

[christofirst]

christofirst

You wrote, “But seeing God as the harsh Judge, and living one’s life accordingly, is perhaps the safest way to live. And I suppose I do live my life that way, inasmuch as I try to follow the Commandments and the rules of the Church. This does not prevent or conflict with the hope that I have, that almost everyone is not in Hell.”

One of Jesus’s parables could be said to speak about “God as the harsh Judge, and living one’s life accordingly, is perhaps the safest way to live” and the one that was afraid of God, buried his talent and one could say that living the “safe way” might not be quite the “safe way” that one thought it to be.

Jesus also spoke about “the measure that you measure with will be measured out to you”, could be that Jesus meant what He said here.

I stake absolutely everything on God having a Plan that is GOOD NEWS and is something that ALL will, ultimately, be thankful for.

Some seem to think that I am saying that none will go thru Judgement,what I am saying is that we will ALL go thru Judgement.

Tom, I think that you and I are close to being on the same page regarding this. I happen to be a great admirer of Blessed Julian of Norwich, with her vision that somehow, “All shall be well.” I know that this is a private “showing”, but it still gives me much hope. I’m not sure what to make of your experience of Hell, however, as such things are thus far beyond the realm of my experience (and I pray never will be!)

 

[Ridgerunner]

You raise interesting points. It seems to me that there is a fear coming from the camp of those who see God only as the harsh Judge, that by admitting the possibility of something approaching universal salvation, it will give rise to increased sin. Sort of like, “If everyone goes to Heaven anyway, nothing I do in this life matters. I can sin as much as I want!” Nothing could be further from the truth! In this debate, I am not denying the existence of Hell, and certainly not the existence of Purgatory either. Our lives matter, and the things we do have consequences. My opinion in this matter is based on the love of God, as imperfectly as I dare say I understand it, and not on the mistaken notion that I can somehow “pull a fast one” over on God. Heaven forbid!

But seeing God as the harsh Judge, and living one’s life accordingly, is perhaps the safest way to live. And I suppose I do live my life that way, inasmuch as I try to follow the Commandments and the rules of the Church. This does not prevent or conflict with the hope that I have, that almost everyone is not in Hell. And St. Therese did say something to the effect that her favorite saints were those who “stole Heaven,” which indicates to me her understanding of Mercy, upon which I too rely.

I’m not sure there is a contradiction, properly considered. Not saying Ste Therese or anyone else would agree with this, but it is not inconsistent with Catholic teachings or the assertions of some who are well regarded by the Church, to say that if one loved God sufficiently, one would not wish to sin, ("…even the just man falls seven times/day") but would anyway, but would be likely to have perfect contrition for one’s sins. What “pefect contrition” is, is up to God, not up to us. Same with “Final Penitence”.

I am not alone in believing that the Sacrament of Penance (Extreme Unction being another) is a way of “letting us off the hook”. Maybe we’re not sufficiently aware of the scope and nature of our sins. Maybe we’re not perfectly sorry or even sorry at all, but conscious of potential punishment. Maybe our intention to reform is extremely faulty. Maybe our love of God is really not very strong. But we get to wipe the slate clean anyhow. This is something I have sometimes argued with those who think the Church is “harsh” in its view of sin and repentence. It really isn’t. It has been given the “keys”; the power to get us off the hook even when we’re really not up to par in our love of God or in our keeping His commandments. I think of it as being part of a richer view of the Incarnation than we’re often inclined to have, but that’s another story entirely.

Frankly, (and I expect to draw fire for this) I think the Church’s approach to annulment is similar. Some really complain about that. While sometimes I’m a bit dubious in some instances, it still seems to me it’s part of that “delegation of power” from Jesus Christ to His Church; an “override”, as it were.

 

[ready]

Jesus did say there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for the unrepentant, but He did not say how many that will eventually be, and God wills that all be saved. The way to Heaven is narrow and few find it, but with God, all things are possible. How do we reconcile the negative with the positive? Jesus gave authority to Catholic Church, but you are precluding a good portion of the saints, teachers and clerics because you have decided on your own they do not agree with your interpretation. How we can discuss this matter if you reject everyone who disagrees with your position, and attempt to justify it with the very Church with which you currently find so much fault?

Dear christofirst,

Please read the following link any you will see that it is you who are “precluding a good portion of the saints, etc. … because you have decided on your own authority that they do not agree with your interpretation:” saintsquotes.net/Selection%20-%20Fewness.html I do not reject the teaching of saints – just of modernist teachers. It is unfair and unjust for you to say I reject the teaching of saints What Ridgerummer said St. Therese said she never even said – I am that familiar with her.

There is no contradiction when we are taught that few will be able to enter the narrow way and that with God all things are possible. With God it is possible for the worst sinner to be saved, yes, but it is NOT possible for God to lie or to contradict himself – so there is nothing but truth in Jesus’ statement that FEW will be able to enter the narrow way. I am through with this thread because I have said enough on the matter. It is clear that modernism is rampant and creeps in everywhere. May innocent and gullible souls be protected by our Lady on this thread. God bless you.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Tom, I think that you and I are close to being on the same page regarding this. I happen to be a great admirer of Blessed Julian of Norwich, with her vision that somehow, “All shall be well.” I know that this is a private “showing”, but it still gives me much hope. I’m not sure what to make of your experience of Hell, however, as such things are thus far beyond the realm of my experience (and I pray never will be!)

I just can not hope only for myself or just for some.

It was quite a while after meeting Dad and the Holy Spirit and satan and experiencing hell and spiritual death that I spoke of this to anyone but one of the things that I said to my landlady, not too long after getting out of the hospital, was that I have been thru things that I wish on everyone and thru things that I wish on no one.

I look at it now as God knew that I needed to know some things and God saw to it that I knew some things, it was beyond devastating at the time.

 

[RPRPsych]

This is certainly a thought-provoking thread. I think Ridgerunner has excellent points.

That said, I think the term “Modernist” is being thrown around a little too loosely. von Balthasar speculated on the possibility of universal salvation, rejected it, and concluded simply that we can hope (again, “hope” - not “believe”) for the salvation of any given person. His exegesis is questionable in some places, but he does not teach apokatastasis or Origenism, and he certainly didn’t teach an unlimited Universalism. (I’ve read the book.)

von Balthasar also makes two good points:

• Hell is a real possibility for all of us; we have the choice to reject it.
• when thinking about Hell, we must not populate it with everyone we dislike (“Okay, in RPR’s Hell, I’m going to toss 50 Cent, every single New Age guru, etc…” ) and automatically assume that we are one of the elect.

That said, I can certainly see the dangers in a teaching like von Balthasar’s (or Barron’s interpretation of it). However, I would be cautious about dismissing either as simply a “modernist”.

My own view on this is a cautious “maximalism”: many will be saved (Scripture), many will be damned (Scripture, Tradition, private revelation), speculating on the number of each is useless (Our Lord in the Gospel of St.Luke), and we have a duty to live in such a way that we do not reject God and His Church - as well as to lead others along the right path, and not be a stumbling block to them. The rest is in God’s hands.

 

[christofirst]

This is certainly a thought-provoking thread. I think Ridgerunner has excellent points.

That said, I think the term “Modernist” is being thrown around a little too loosely. von Balthasar speculated on the possibility of universal salvation, rejected it, and concluded simply that we can hope (again, “hope” - not “believe”) for the salvation of any given person. His exegesis is questionable in some places, but he does not teach apokatastasis or Origenism, and he certainly didn’t teach an unlimited Universalism. (I’ve read the book.)

von Balthasar also makes two good points:

• Hell is a real possibility for all of us; we have the choice to reject it.
• when thinking about Hell, we must not populate it with everyone we dislike (“Okay, in RPR’s Hell, I’m going to toss 50 Cent, every single New Age guru, etc…” ) and automatically assume that we are one of the elect.

That said, I can certainly see the dangers in a teaching like von Balthasar’s (or Barron’s interpretation of it). However, I would be cautious about dismissing either as simply a “modernist”.

My own view on this is a cautious “maximalism”: many will be saved (Scripture), many will be damned (Scripture, Tradition, private revelation), speculating on the number of each is useless (Our Lord in the Gospel of St.Luke), and we have a duty to live in such a way that we do not reject God and His Church - as well as to lead others along the right path, and not be a stumbling block to them. The rest is in God’s hands.

I appreciate your contribution. I am more than willing to admit that I let my own personal and ardent hope for whatever God will permit concerning the salvation of all souls to color the things I say here, but you are right - we can only do and say so much on the matter, and in the end it really is in God’s hands. (and I clearly would never wish to see you, RPR, or any of the good people here in any sort of hell! )

 

[Ridgerunner]

What Ridgerummer said St. Therese said she never even said – I am that familiar with her.

You are familiar with what you choose to think she said. But I’ll grant that if one ignores a good part of what she wrote and said, one could miss a great deal. Even Pope John Paul II said the depths of her thought have not yet been fully plumbed.

Parenthetically, “Modernism” = Religious relativism essentially. It does not = any thought more recent than that which was prevalent during the papacy of Pius V.

 

[Mark121359]

This is a perplexing question. First off, to be sure, no one really knows the population of hell. But I’m always cautious when confronted with those who push this “universalist” belief. To me it’s dangerous, this widespread belief, even among Catholics today, that salvation is virtually assured to all men and women, regardless of their religious faith. If all are saved…what’s the point of evangelizing? Why don’t we just relax and enjoy all earthly pleasures and go out committing all kinds of mortal sins such as fornicating, partying with all kinds of illegal drugs, getting drunk, and live life to the fullest? As long as I’m not out there hurting anyone else, what’s the harm…I’m already saved…right? Secularization is largely to blame for this way of thinking, which has become so rampant that it has spread its errors throughout the world and has infested even our Catholic Church to the highest level. Dr. Ralph Martin wrote a book called “Will Many Be Saved.?” He has an interesting and frightening take on this “all are saved” movement in the Church. And one other thing comes to mind. Jesus mentions hell in the New Testament more often than he mentions heaven. And he always does so with a sense of urgency. I have trouble believing that he would have stressed these lessons over and over and over again, if the possibility of ending up there wasn’t a very real one!

Now mind you, I’m very well aware that what happened at Fatima is private revelation, and not necessary for us to believe. I know all that. But nonetheless, The Catholic Church, like it or not, puts a lot of credence in this particular apparition. And for those who put little emphasis on whether hell is populated or not, I leave you with this little conversation that took place about 60 yrs. ago. It certainly got me to at least…wonder to say the least! And for those who always shriek the loudest when an apparition is dared to be mentioned as evidence…this is one instance where I hope you are right, and she (Sr. Lucia) is wrong!

The following is a rare interview with Sister Lucia [the Fatima visionary who died in
2005], by Father Lombardi. It was recorded in the Vatican weekly “Osservatore della
Domenica” February 7, 1954.

Fr. Lombardi: “Tell me, is the ‘Better World Movement’ a response of the Church to the
words spoken by Our Lady?”

***Lucia: ***“Father, there is certainly a great need for this renewal. If it is not done, and taking
into account the present development of humanity, only a limited number of the human
race will be saved.”

Fr. Lombardi: “Do you really believe that many will go to Hell? I hope that God will save
the greater part of humanity.” [He had just written a book entitled: Salvation for Those
Without Faith]

Lucia: “Father, many will be lost.”

Fr. Lombardi: “It is true that the world is full of evil, but there is always a hope of
salvation.”

Lucia: “No Father, many will be lost.”

Father Lombardi remembered that Lucia had seen Hell and added: Her words disturbed
me. I returned to Italy with that grave warning impressed on my heart."

Peace, Mark

 

[crenfro]

Hello Adamski!

Don’t know if it will help you, but the book Will Many Be Saved by Ralph Martin is very helpful to me.

Also, the fact that we choose Hell is helpful to me. Every choice I make needs to be guided by: is this God’s will or my will?. God loves us and because He does he respects our free will and the choices we make. God wants our ultimate happiness and sometimes we don’t understand what really makes us happy. And what’s even worse, I suspect that some of us don’t really want to know what will ultimately make us happy.

Also what helps me too is to see what pains God took to keep us from Hell → just take a look at a crucifix. He also said he didn’t come down to this Earth for the already righteous but to save sinners… is why the Catholic church is called a hospital for sinners…

I have terrible fears that I’ll go to Hell. I need to learn to trust God more and myself less. It is difficult and I can’t do this alone.

Here is a prayer for the both of us - and thank you for your honest post:

Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622)

Do not look forward to the changes and chances of this life with fear. Rather, look to them with full confidence that, as they arise, God to whom you belong will in his love enable you to profit by them. He has guided you thus far in life. Do you but hold fast to His dear hand, and He will lead you safely through all trials. Whenever you cannot stand, He will carry you lovingly in his arms.

Do not look forward to what may happen tomorrow. The same Eternal Father who takes care of you today will take care of you tomorrow, and every day of your life. Either He will shield you from suffering or He will give you unfailing strength to bear it.

Be at peace then, and put aside all useless thoughts, all vain dreads and all anxious imaginations.

After reading the bible multiple times and the cathechism it really seems almost everyone goes to hell does that seem right?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have terrible fears that I’ll go to Hell. I need to learn to trust God more and myself less. It is difficult and I can’t do this alone.

Here is a prayer for the both of us - and thank you for your honest post:

I think, in learning to trust and love God, it’s like anything else. It’s a “one step at a time” thing. My daughter in law comes from a very mountainous place, and when she was a kid, the family used to go mountain climbing. When she was little, she had a lot of trouble making it, and asked her mother how she could ever make it to the top, because she didn’t have long legs like her mother had. “By little steps” her mother replied.

And that, I think, is about all most of can manage…“little steps”. It may be more important that we strive to do the Will of God and to love Him (which is the same thing) by “little steps” than that we sweat over what giant leaps we might take and never quite get it done, or perhaps worse, that we imagine we have already taken that giant leap by “getting saved” or by rationalizing our own sinfulness and imagining ourselves “righteous”.

At risk of getting called out again, I’ll mention that Ste Therese set a great deal of store on praying for the conversion of sinners. Why that particular thing? Well, she knew what God really wants. He wants us. She felt that she could perhaps show her love of God, not by praying for herself, but by praying for those who might otherwise be lost to a God who loves them dearly and wants them for Himself. Who knows whether perhaps it could result in some fellow in Burma at least halfway changing his life and turning to God.

We might take heed of that. It’s a “little step” perhaps, to do that, and to offer up our “hidden sacrifices” for the conversion of sinners. But if God does love sinners, and we are told He does, one could do a lot worse than pray for their conversion. Who can possibly know the mechanics of “Final Penitence”. Maybe that little extra shot of grace could make all the difference.

 

[Sarcelle]

Hello Adamski!

Don’t know if it will help you, but the book Will Many Be Saved by Ralph Martin is very helpful to me.

Also, the fact that we choose Hell is helpful to me. Every choice I make needs to be guided by: is this God’s will or my will?. God loves us and because He does he respects our free will and the choices we make. God wants our ultimate happiness and sometimes we don’t understand what really makes us happy. And what’s even worse, I suspect that some of us don’t really want to know what will ultimately make us happy.

Also what helps me too is to see what pains God took to keep us from Hell → just take a look at a crucifix. He also said he didn’t come down to this Earth for the already righteous but to save sinners… is why the Catholic church is called a hospital for sinners…

I have terrible fears that I’ll go to Hell. I need to learn to trust God more and myself less. It is difficult and I can’t do this alone.

Here is a prayer for the both of us - and thank you for your honest post:

Thank you. This helped me as well.

I have terrible fears about the future and even more terrible fears of what happens when I die.

I was raised atheist and came to the Church late. In fact one priest I know called me the Prodigal daughter.

I was and still am a sinner.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I was and still am a sinner.

So are we all. I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said the Catholic Church is for saints and sinners. Some few are saints, and the rest of us are sinners, but even the saints are wise enough to realize they’re sinners too.

It sometimes seems to me that a fault of our time is the failure or refusal to admit to that. I recall someone (maybe Kenneth Clark???) in comparing the Renaissance to our own time said that in our time almost nobody “Sins well or repents well”. And there’s truth to both parts of his proposition. If we read about the sinfulness of people in the Renaissance, it’s sometimes breathtaking. If we simply read the footnotes to Dante’s “Inferno” we know that. But they also “repented well”. One is put to mind, in this regard, of Lorenzo di Medici who “repented well” as he neared death. He had done lots of bad things, but he had no doubt about the need to repent his sins.

It often seems to me that we are awfully given, in this time, to “rewriting morality” so that nothing is considered immoral. So, we don’t “sin well” in that we don’t acknowledge it. And, not acknowledging it, we don’t “repent well” because we think we have nothing for which to repent. The self-deception is there at the beginning and at the end too.

I sometimes think of situations in which many Catholic people mightily deny the immorality of something like, say, artificial contraception, despite the clarity of the Church teachings on it. How much easier, I sometimes think, to simply admit to one’s doing wrong, confessing it, and at least investigating NFP even if one thinks he/she is unlikely to use it. At least one could pray for the strength to resist it. Penitence can be pitifully weak in Catholicism, and still count. But the admission comes first.