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Margaret_Ann
Guest
TAN Books once published a book called Behind the Lodge Door, which talked about Masonic influence in American society. This is not for the faint of heart, btw.
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childinthefaith
Guest
Negative. It is not. Because we Christians are called to “go forth making disciples…” ~Mt 28 by Our Lord. Our religion is not just between our ears, it is, if we are practicing it correctly, in our actions and especially interactions.
Hardly. God created a wonderful variety of male and female human beings. Only at the level of biology are we necessarily all the same, and not even then, all equal, as is illustrated by a child’s aptitudes etc.
As for America being Masonic, I know there’s a lot of Americans who are Masons. Like my next door neighbor who informed me one summer day a few years back that he is the “high priest of” his Masonic temple. He made the mistake of asking me too many personal questions about religion and discovered that as a Catholic, I am under penalty of excommunication for joining his little club, AND they are a declared enemy of the Catholic Church (Pope Leo XIII encyclical late 1800’s).
But, that does not mean “America is Masonic,” just because there’s a lot of American Masons. It means, American Catholics need to realize freemasonry is indeed a declared enemy of our Faith, avoid anything supporting it (including Shriners, who must be a freemason before becoming a Shriner), and stop keeping our mouths shut when people are praising masonry. Of course the first step is to be informed. I recommend reading the Encylical written by Pope Leo XIII in 1890-something as a primer.
Lastly, although I realize very well you did not ask anyone, I will here state that I detest Freemasonry. My abusive late father was a 32nd degree mason (+ York & Scottish rites), and I’d have gotten more love as a child from a bag of ice from the gas station.
I feel a diatribe coming on, so shutting up now…
Ya all take care.
Blessings,
Now you’ve got my curiosity up. I’ve heard of that book but never read it. May have to check it out.
It probably didn’t. I realize Americans aren’t “geared up” to think this way, but I seriously question whether the thirteen colonies should have declared independence from the UK. Canadian schoolchildren certainly aren’t taught that George III was a bad king or that there should have been a revolution, and we share the same basic culture (except for Quebec), lifestyle, and standard of living. A British North America wouldn’t be all that much different from what we are used to, except that we’d all be subjects of the Crown and HM would be on our pocket change. Much alternative history exists along these lines.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
From a legal standpoint, to me a British USA would be unrecognizable and would lack most of the principles on which our country runs.
I give thanks on a regular basis that the colonists revolted and have never thought it was a wrong thing to do, ever.
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runningdude
Guest
No. If anything, Masons emulate American traits.
The United States is a nation built on the premise that a free society always striving to be better is the only way to avoid tyranny.
Freemasons make similar promises wrapped up in esoteric gobbledygook.
The United States adopted various generic slogans and symbols, and the masons followed suit, adapting American symbols out of patriotism. Masons were popular in early American culture in part because many early leaders were masons. This largely guided American freemasonry away from the radical ideology in European masonry. George Washington himself even warned of European radicals trying to gain influence in US lodges.
So what we have is a sui generis American culture that in turn influenced freemasonry as practiced in the United States. The adaptation by the latter in no way denigrates the former. There nothing sinful about American culture; if anything, it made freemasonry less sinful in turn.
American culture is a driving force for good that is particularly suited to allowing God to work through it.
The United States is a nation built on the premise that a free society always striving to be better is the only way to avoid tyranny.
Freemasons make similar promises wrapped up in esoteric gobbledygook.
The United States adopted various generic slogans and symbols, and the masons followed suit, adapting American symbols out of patriotism. Masons were popular in early American culture in part because many early leaders were masons. This largely guided American freemasonry away from the radical ideology in European masonry. George Washington himself even warned of European radicals trying to gain influence in US lodges.
So what we have is a sui generis American culture that in turn influenced freemasonry as practiced in the United States. The adaptation by the latter in no way denigrates the former. There nothing sinful about American culture; if anything, it made freemasonry less sinful in turn.
American culture is a driving force for good that is particularly suited to allowing God to work through it.
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otjm
Guest
Well, hopefully, they make it to Mass.
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You might actually have something here. American and European Freemasonry are indeed two very different critters.
So do you think it would be more like Canada is today? Canada is not all that different from the US, except for Quebec which is a “distinct society”. Or has a republican USA influenced Canadian institutions?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I am honestly not sure if the US would have ended up being like Canada, or would have evolved into something totally different in the postcolonial era. For starters, I cannot see a British colony obtaining such large masses of land additions from the French and Spanish as we ended up getting, and without all that land, the history of the USA would have been very different due to no westward expansion and settlement.
I also don’t think that if we’d continued to be a British colony or even a commonwealth, we would have been welcoming the vast numbers of European immigrants that we did. Some, maybe, but not the same amount. And this would have influenced our country in a different direction.
The biggest difference I see between the US and UK is that the US promotes individualism and individual rights to a much greater extent. The UK is still more oriented towards a central government working for the common good and enforcing policies on its “subjects” allegedly for the common good. While this obviously looks quite reasonable to most UK citizens and European citizens, it is definitely not the way US folks are used to doing things.
I also don’t think that if we’d continued to be a British colony or even a commonwealth, we would have been welcoming the vast numbers of European immigrants that we did. Some, maybe, but not the same amount. And this would have influenced our country in a different direction.
The biggest difference I see between the US and UK is that the US promotes individualism and individual rights to a much greater extent. The UK is still more oriented towards a central government working for the common good and enforcing policies on its “subjects” allegedly for the common good. While this obviously looks quite reasonable to most UK citizens and European citizens, it is definitely not the way US folks are used to doing things.
I see what you are saying. Alternative history is fascinating and, based upon the premises one proceeds from, it can go in any direction imaginable.
For many years now, though, I have had an issue with the revolt of the American colonists against the Crown as being possibly a violation of the Fourth Commandment. The colonists in Canada, and those loyalists who went there after the war, remained loyal to the Crown — “loyal she began, loyal she remains” — and they seem to have done all right for themselves, Canada’s standard of living is unsurpassed, and at least nominally, they remain a monarchy. It has always just come across as a little Protestant-ish, a little Freemason-ish, for subjects of a monarch to stand up, tell the monarch what they are going to do, to draft a “declaration of independence” and assert all sorts of “God-given rights”. Traditionally, in monarchies — there may be exceptions — if your king is hard to live under, you just pray for him, live with the situation, and hope the next king is easier to be subject to. If the founding fathers had all been faithful, practicing Catholics, if George III had been a Catholic monarch — even with the flaws that he no doubt had (were those flaws as bad as the revolutionary colonists made them out to be? — some say that it was more about money and riches than anything else) — would there have been a revolution and the proclamation of an autonomous nation no longer subject to the Crown? Again, you can go anyplace under the sun with alternative history — there’s no way to know — but I have my doubts.
Americans are taught from day one that monarchies are bad, democracy is good, being a republic is good, George III was a meanie, the founding fathers hung the moon, and nobody ever questions any of it. I believe more in looking at all sides of the situation than that.
We came overland from Albany, Yankee rebels on our heels,
We stole a boat in Sackett’s Harbour and we headed for Presqu’il.
Settled hard by Kingston, safe from revolution’s flames,
And it’s loyal she began boys, loyal she remains.
Loyal she began boys, loyal she remains,
Content to live our lives in peace beneath a monarch’s reins.
Let the rebels rot with all of their ill-gotten gains,
But it’s loyal she began boys, loyal she remains.
We saw the writing on the wall right after Valley Forge,
When the rebels stood for Washington, we held for old King George.
Kin folk turned on kin, blood like water in the veins,
But it’s loyal she began boys, loyal she remains.
We lost our farms, we lost our friends, but we never lost our pride,
No amount of traitor gold could lure us to a traitor’s side.
A people’s honour blemished once will never lose the stain,
So it’s loyal she began boys, loyal she remains.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
I’m singing :“You’ll Be Back” from Hamilton
Tis_Bearself
Patron
As I am working on charity for Lent, I’ll refrain from posting “The Old Soldiers of the King” (my favorite version is by Oscar Brand) in response.
I’ll just go listen to it on Youtube privately.
I’ll just go listen to it on Youtube privately.
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commenter
Guest
The US media, public education, and the Democratic Party are moving us in the Europe direction, as “subjects”.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
The Democratic Party is not always in power, and there are a significant number of power brokers (as well as ordinary people) who object to the “let’s make US just like Europe” business promoted by the Obamas and certain members of the Supreme Court.
We’re not Europe, we’re never going to be like Europe. Even when the Dems and the Europhiles are in power, they can only take it so far.
We’re not Europe, we’re never going to be like Europe. Even when the Dems and the Europhiles are in power, they can only take it so far.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Every mason I’ve ever known has been somewhat of an arrogant a-hole. There must be something that is imparted onto it’s members. Sort of a ‘Me and my friends can do whatever we want’ attitude.
If not then that would expose a weakness in Catholic theology of the 1700’s. No surprise there though because the Church no longer supports the concept of a ‘Catholic government’ to rule over people.
I’ve always had the thought that without Protestantism the US may never have developed as a democratic republic. Masonry or not, the founders did it right and a Catholic monarchy probably would not have produced the same results - just look at Europe.
Never heard of it until now, but I skimmed the lyrics, and they were in such archaic, flowery language that I couldn’t make much sense of it. I must simply be getting lazy in my old age, but I increasingly find any prose or poetry from before the 20th century to be impenetrable. We tried reading Poe’s The Fall of the House of Usher in homeschool the other day, and I finally said this is so thick, so dense, so flowery, it’s not suitable for our goals in literature class right now, let’s read something else. That was back when people had attention spans. Authors in those days never saw a run-on sentence they didn’t like.
The fact that we can even have a conversation such as this — “were the colonists right to revolt, or not?” — is a testament to the broad-mindedness and love for truth that any faithful Catholic should have. It never even so much as occurs to any Americans, that the rebel colonists might, just might, have been in the wrong. I would love for some Canadians, if we have any here, to weigh in, and tell us what they learn in schools up there :canada:
I wonder if it occurred to anyone, way back then, to appeal to Pope Pius VI, to adjudicate the situation. If the king and the colonists had all been Catholics — as they should have been — that might have been a plan. Better than war.
I wouldn’t go that far — I’m sure the sick kids in the Shriners’ Hospitals think Masons are pretty terrific people — but I have noticed that, if you talk to one of them long enough, they will buttonhole you, and remind you that any religion is as good as any other, that it is all up to the individual conscience, and that the other guy’s conception of God is none of your business. I’ve had it happen more than once. One elderly Mason who worked for me, never tired of bragging how he finally, after many years, got his Catholic wife away from the Church and into Anglicanism, and how the two religions are really not much different. They are both deceased now, and presumably have all the answers they will ever have. Hope it all turned out OK for them.childinthefaith:
Every mason I’ve ever known has been somewhat of an arrogant a-hole. There must be something that is imparted onto it’s members. Sort of a ‘Me and my friends can do whatever we want’ attitude.
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Pitcairn17
Guest
Interesting speculation. Does it therefore follow that a) it is immoral for Catholics to participate in American politics - or even vote - as it would be furthering an unjust and morally flawed (i. e. poisoned at the root) political structure? And b) is there a moral obligation for Catholics to agitate for reunification with Great Britain?
I wouldn’t go that far. What’s done is done, the system has been chugging along for over 200 years now, and from what I have heard, the UK was not all that enthusiastic about retaining the colonies — they were getting to be too much of a burden, the colonists were too restless, and it was easier just to let them go. I have even heard apocryphal musings (possibly agenda-driven) that the Crown never actually, formally relinquished the colonies, or at least didn’t “dot all the I’s and cross all the T’s”, in short, from the Crown’s standpoint it’s an illegal revolutionary regime. I don’t think Her Majesty is going to make it an issue anytime soon. Again, what’s done is done, and it is our task now, to work within the system, and make it the best it can be.
See above.
However, if there ever arose a popular movement to do this, I’d be right on it. And to merge the US and Canada as long as we’re at it? Largest country in the world by land mass, Anchorage to Key West, San Diego to Alert. That’d be a beautiful thing. And if it were totally Catholic? I would die of joy!
Further reading:
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Spangled-Crown-Simple-American-Monarchy/dp/1944339051
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Georges-...rds=two+georges&qid=1585673381&s=books&sr=1-2
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
I actually had that book and gave it away.Margaret_Ann:
Now you’ve got my curiosity up. I’ve heard of that book but never read it. May have to check it out.
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