is antisemitism and anti zionism anti Christian?

[pro_universal]

Tell me, how many people in the history of the world have had “self determination?”

It’s irrelevant. If you agree that it’s just to have self determination, no amount of injustice will transform that injustice into something good.

So…the Arabs that were unjustly expelled. Who owned the land before they took control? Who did they expel? Who did they disinfranchise? Why not give it to them instead?
Maybe we should give it back to all of them and let them “self determine” things. That’s fair, don’t you agree?

No, because at present, we’re talking about people who were residing in their homes, and who had been there for centuries. The people who have been tossed out of their homes are alive, right now, today, in many cases with the original paperwork from when they bought their homes. It’s not honored by Israel.

But to keep out the people that want to kill them. Doesn’t that just make sense?

Then why are they annexing all of the land with millions of those people who “want to kill them”?

How are Jews treated in the Arab world? Does your compassion extend to them? In all fairness, it should.

Yes. All mistreatment of Jews because of their being Jewish is wrong.

BTW - your term “expelled” I believe is more correctly rendered as “chose to leave / desired to leave / couldn’t stand the thought of being in Israel chose to leave”.

You would be wrong on my term then. Expelled is the most accurate description of what happened.

 

[ricmat]

Finally, while it is true that my ancestor the Rabbi was killed by Christians who were presumably Russian Orthodox it should be remembered that most of the mass murders of Jews and most of the forced coversions of Jews over the centuries have been done by Roman Catholics. A recent example is when Jewish holocaust survivors tried to go back to their homes in Poland after the war many were murdered in pogroms.

I have already admitted that Roman Catholics have sometimes done bad things. Sometimes they even thought that they were doing it “for Catholicism.” Know one knows for sure how many Jews were killed, or how many forced conversions were made (except God).

Many “known facts” regarding mass murders by Catholics (such as the Inquisition) have been shown by recent scholarship to have stated highly inflated numbers. In many cases the “known facts” were distributed widely by anti-Catholics who used a tiny grain of truth to grow an abundant harvest of anti-Catholicism.

BTW - Jews don’t have a monopoly on religious suffering, although they’ve had more time to practice
Catholics have had it bad too, just ask an Irishman or an English Catholic. Even in the USA, for a long time it was illegal to be a Catholic, and until the late 1800’s it was illegal for a Catholic to own a gun (but OK for everybody else).

Jesus didn’t want it to be this way.

 

[pro_universal]

, Israel is a democracy that respects the right of all to practice their religion of choice (with arab members of knesset (the israeli parliament), arab judges - including a supreme court judge and likely this week an arab minister in the government). It is the only country in the middle east where the Christian population has grown.

What about immigration? Can a Palestinian Arab immigrate to Israel if he can prove connection to the land? What about someone who is Jewish?

That is a racially discriminatory policy, and there are many in Israel. I don’t think you can find me one single Israeli Arab who believes that Israel treats Arabs the same as it treats Jews. Indeed, it is “the Jewish state in the middle east.”

And on top of that you have the occupied territory, which the Israeli government claims is Israeli land. I don’t think anyone would even pretend that there are equal rights there, as the residents have no citizenship, no property rights, and are routinely killed in military strikes.

Try smuggling a bible into Saudi Arabia - its punishable by death. Racism? Aparthied? Its illegal for a Jew (that’s right Jew not just Israeli) to enter Saudi Arabia. So when certain Christian groups are anti zionist and talk about their anti zionism in “moral” terms I too am more than a little suspect that what we have here is nothing more than antisemitism.

Which is all ironic, since Saudi Arabia is leading the Arab world in cooperating with Israel to suppress movements like Hamas and Hizbullah. Indeed, most of the Israel supporters in the Arab world are notorious anti-semites.

I have one more sad personal true story about the morality of the zionist jewish state of Israel. A while back my cousin, a med student, was killed by palestinian arab terrorist bomb while riding a Tel Aviv bus. His family decided to donate his organs for transplant. All transplant recipients were decided by strict medical criteria. By a twist of fate, and here’s irony for you, all the transplant recipients were palestinian arabs.

I am very sorry to hear of your loss, and I hope no more of this madness hurts anyone. But I think the key to peace is justice.

 

[ricmat]

Self determination – It’s irrelevant. If you agree that it’s just to have self determination, no amount of injustice will transform that injustice into something good.

I brought it up as a “reality check”. You’ve heard of reality, right?

No, because at present, we’re talking about people who were residing in their homes, and who had been there for centuries. The people who have been tossed out of their homes are alive, right now, today, in many cases with the original paperwork from when they bought their homes. It’s not honored by Israel.

They’ve been there for centuries because their ancestors stole the land from somebody else centuries ago. Reality again.

Then why are they annexing all of the land with millions of those people who “want to kill them”?

Self preservation. (Get them where you can watch them). Reality again.

To paraphrase somebody else whom I don’t remember…“If the Arabs were to lay down their guns, peace would break out all across the region. If the Jews were to lay down their guns, another holocaust would break out all across the region.” Darn - I can’t remember the original words but they said it better than I did above.

 

[pro_universal]

I brought it up as a “reality check”. You’ve heard of reality, right?

I don’t see the relevance. I’m saying that the reality of this particular situation is unjust. You saying that it’s “reality” doesn’t make it just. So what is your claim?

They’ve been there for centuries because their ancestors stole the land from somebody else centuries ago. Reality again.

Again, not really relevant, and not accurate. The Arabs didn’t expel all the locals; they expelled the Roman legions and invited the Jews back to Jerusalem. So no, that’s not why there are Arabs there today.

Self preservation. Reality again.

How does annexing into your country a piece of land with millions of people who “all want to kill you” constitute self-preservation?

To paraphrase somebody else whom I don’t remember…“If the Arabs were to lay down their guns, peace would break out all across the region. If the Jews were to lay down their guns, another holocaust would break out all across the region.” Darn - I can’t remember the original words but they said it better than I did above.

Whoever said it was grossly biased. The Palestinians had no guns in the first war, and they didn’t really present any resistance at all until a good 30 years after Israel was founded. Within the territories themselves, there was no resistence at all until the 1980’s…strange history if it’s all the Arabs’ fault, don’t you think?

 

[ricmat]

I don’t see the relevance. I’m saying that the reality of this particular situation is unjust. You saying that it’s “reality” doesn’t make it just. So what is your claim?

OK - it’s unjust. Compare it to Arab justice. Compare it to anybodys justice for the last 4000 years. It’s not so bad.

It seems you don’t want to hold anybody else to your standard of justice. Why hold only the Israelis to your standard?

Again, not really relevant, and not accurate. The Arabs didn’t expel all the locals; they expelled the Roman legions and invited the Jews back to Jerusalem. So no, that’s not why there are Arabs there today.

Sorry, you missed my previous post of conquerers.

So the Arabs had property documents before their property became Israel.

So if an Italian shows up with an “authentic” Roman document from 33AD showing that he owns Jerusalem, we should give it to him? Give me a break. That’s not reality.

How does annexing into your country a piece of land with millions of people who “all want to kill you” constitute self-preservation?

If they are on the “other side” of the border, and they shoot at you, you hide in a shelter until they stop, and you tend your wounded and bury your dead. If they are on “your side” of the border, then you send in the police to take away their weapons. It’s not complicated…really.

 

[pro_universal]

OK - it’s unjust. Compare it to Arab justice. Compare it to anybodys justice for the last 4000 years. It’s not so bad.

It seems you don’t want to hold anybody else to your standard of justice. Why hold only the Israelis to your standard?

I’m more than happy to hold everyone to this standard. Where do you see me justifying Arab state policies on this subject?

Sorry, you missed my previous post of conquerers.

I got the point, it was just based on a distorted view of the history and had been drawn to an irrelevant conclusion.

So the Arabs had property documents before their property became Israel.

So if an Italian shows up with an “authentic” Roman document from 33AD showing that he owns Jerusalem, we should give it to him? Give me a break. That’s not reality.

Not a comparable situation. The actual builder of the house and a child who lived there are still alive in the Israel-Palestine situation, and many of the expelled are still living in poverty in their own territory (the West Bank and Gaza).

If they are on the “other side” of the border, and they shoot at you, you hide in a shelter until they stop, and you tend your wounded and bury your dead. If they are on “your side” of the border, then you send in the police to take away their weapons. It’s not complicated…really.

That’s not the way it happens, and it certainly doesn’t stand up to common sense. If they are on the other side of the border, you don’t have to deal with them or aggravate them.

Inside the border, Israel routinely sends helicopters and aircraft to drop bombs, and then send bulldozers to demolish homes…only to be replaced by homes meant for Jews only.

Is that a “police action” aimed at taking away weapons?

 

[Angelos]

Arabs assimilated the Aramaic and Syriac speakers (both closely related to Arabic) with the support of Jews in 7th century. The Arabs were able, with Jewish support, to take Palestine from the oppressive Byzantine regime.

What was the ethnic origin of those Aramaic & Syriac speakers? If your allegation is true, why did Jews help Arabs at that time? Were they blind or foolish not to predict that Arabs would claim Jerusalem for the capital of the Islamic state? I know well that Arabs (Muslims) had already started to dream of Jerusalem before Mohammed’s death due to a chapter in their scripture narrating their prophet’s supposed journey to Jerusalem in a dream! More, Jews in Arabia had always been at war with Mohammed & his followers before Chaliph Omar initiated the universal jihad.

It does not and never has supported anti-Judaism. Before the secular, communist ideology of Zionism (and it is both-secular and communist in origin), Muslims and Jews cooperated and lived in peace.

I disagree. Were Palestinians non-Muslim, Arabs would not care about them! Zionism stemmed from Jews’ reaction to the Arabic invasion of the Holy Land. More, Jews have never aimed to conquer the entire world through “faith” whereas Arabs/Muslims have always worked for such a goal. Sarah threw Ishmael out of Abraham’s house, and Mohammed threw Isaac & his progeny out of the supposed house of Allah (Kaa’ba) in Mecca. Arabs have so far accomplished the same act of revenge because of Ishmael’s having the status of a slave through his mother Hagar.

Many of the Arabs in Palestine are non-Muslim; they are Christians. Israel treats them just as poorly as it treats Muslims.

I remember whom the Christian Arabs sided with at the beginning of the civil war in Lebanon. I also know that non-Muslim Arabs living in Lebanon supported Israel’s latest operation in the southern part of their country. Isn’t it strange?

Theos mazi sou,
Angelos N.

 

[pro_universal]

What was the ethnic origin of those Aramaic & Syriac speakers? If your allegation is true, why did Jews help Arabs at that time?

It is most certainly true. You can read it for yourself in any historical source you like. The ethnic origins of these people is that they were semites, which is why all of their languages are related.

The Jews helped the Arabs because the Arabs respected their right to religion and reinvited them to Jerusalem. The Romans did not respect freedom of religion and expelled Jews from Jerusalem.

More, Jews in Arabia had always been at war with Mohammed & his followers before Chaliph Omar initiated the universal jihad.

I’m not sure where you got your image of this time period from, but it is wrong.

I disagree. Were Palestinians non-Muslim, Arabs would not care about them! Zionism stemmed from Jews’ reaction to the Arabic invasion of the Holy Land.

Well, you can disprove this to yourself by looking at the facts. Many palestinians are Christian. Some of the primary architechts of Palestinian resistance are Christians, like George Habash. Your theory here is simply wrong.

I remember whom the Christian Arabs sided with at the beginning of the civil war in Lebanon. I also know that non-Muslim Arabs living in Lebanon supported Israel’s latest operation in the southern part of their country. Isn’t it strange?

As for part one, the Christian phalangists who fought with Israel don’t consider themselves Arabs. They were also the worst human rights violaters in Lebanon during the civil war, bar none.

As for the 2006 war, no, Christians did not support it. Michel Aoun is currently allied with Hizbullah over the war. The majority of Christians in Lebanon are anti-Israel today.

You need to do some serious fact checking. I mean that honestly-your perceptions are simply not based on reality on this topic.

 

[Angelos]

It is most certainly true. You can read it for yourself in any historical source you like. The ethnic origins of these people is that they were semites, which is why all of their languages are related.

This proves Arabs collaborated with Jews to assimilate many tribes of Semitic origin. Thus, they approved of invasion & bloodshed. There’s no use playing the innocent now. History repeats itself to the disadvantage of Arabs in Palestine. Sorry!

The Jews helped the Arabs because the Arabs respected their right to religion and reinvited them to Jerusalem. The Romans did not respect freedom of religion and expelled Jews from Jerusalem.

Did the Jews respect the new Arabic religion coming to their promised land? Did Jews like to be the guests in their own land whilst Arabs the landlord?

I’m not sure where you got your image of this time period from, but it is wrong.

I got my image of this time period from the Quran. It might be wrong because it seems that whatever I say or even think of is wrong in contrast to your ever-true arguments. I promise to begin studying soon. Any books you will recommend me? Sorry, I have no access to a Palestinian library or Hezbollah’s archive.

Well, you can disprove this to yourself by looking at the facts. Many palestinians are Christian. Some of the primary architechts of Palestinian resistance are Christians, like George Habash. Your theory here is simply wrong.

Yes, I know those many Palestinian Christians that read from the Quran in their weekly ceremonies on Friday & do their best to enter Mesjid’ul Aqsa. George Habash can represent the view of the whole Christian population in Palestine? Your theory sounds so true & convincing. Minority within minority indicates majority!

As for part one, the Christian phalangists who fought with Israel don’t consider themselves Arabs. They were also the worst human rights violaters in Lebanon during the civil war, bar none.

But it is still true that not all originally Arabic Christians are against Zionism! The mother tongue of those phalangists is still Arabic!

As for the 2006 war, no, Christians did not support it. Michel Aoun is currently allied with Hizbullah over the war. The majority of Christians in Lebanon are anti-Israel today.

Michel Aoun? Now I am convinced that for you a single man is enough to represent the majority. The Lebanese friends of mine (Catholics) prefer the worst Israeli government to the most tolerant Hezbollah administration. After talking to you, I am about to accuse my friends of being talented liars

You need to do some serious fact checking. I mean that honestly-your perceptions are simply not based on reality on this topic.

Thank you so much, very kind of you. I would be able to do some serious fact checking on this topic if Osama had free time to teach me

I like it more this way. Being ignorant, I can give people like you the chance to teach a person like me.

Theos Mazi sou
Angelos N.

 

[pro_universal]

This proves Arabs collaborated with Jews to assimilate many tribes of Semitic origin. Thus, they approved of invasion & bloodshed. There’s no use playing the innocent now. History repeats itself to the disadvantage of Arabs in Palestine. Sorry!

This is a strange piece of logic here. “Arabs and Jews collaborated and are related peoples, therefore, they were for bloodshed.” I really don’t see anything coherent here that I can respond to.

Did the Jews respect the new Arabic religion coming to their promised land? Did Jews like to be the guests in their own land whilst Arabs the landlord?

They certainly preferred to the alternative, which was living under Christian rule.

I got my image of this time period from the Quran.

Well, that would explain a few things, since the Quran was completed and Muhammad had died before the Arabs went to Jerusalem with Jewish support.

I promise to begin studying soon. Any books you will recommend me? Sorry, I have no access to a Palestinian library or Hezbollah’s archive.

There are a range of good sources, but you can start online with a Catholic university provided one: fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

Yes, I know those many Palestinian Christians that read from the Quran in their weekly ceremonies on Friday & do their best to enter Mesjid’ul Aqsa. George Habash can represent the view of the whole Christian population in Palestine? Your theory sounds so true & convincing. Minority within minority indicates majority!

I don’t understand what you’re saying here. Are you seriously claiming that there are no Palestinian Christians???

Or are you saying that George Habash was secretly not a Christian??? I’m confused. This is a really strange claim to make on either count.

But it is still true that not all originally Arabic Christians are against Zionism! The mother tongue of those phalangists is still Arabic!

But didn’t you just tell me that Arabs actually supported Israel if they weren’t Muslim? Which is it, Arab or Muslim that is against Israel?

Michel Aoun? Now I am convinced that for you a single man is enough to represent the majority. The Lebanese friends of mine (Catholics) prefer the worst Israeli government to the most tolerant Hezbollah administration. After talking to you, I am about to accuse my friends of being talented liars

Well, you can read the polls for yourself. They are published in Haaretz, the Daily Star, and numerous other English language sources. No need to rely on “I heard this from someone”…you can read accurate polls on the political parties in Lebanon for yourself.

 

[Mirdath]

Hi Karin!

OK - so you’re an anti-zionist. Is that an official policy of the “etc.” religion?

I’m actually agnostic, I just filled in ‘etc.’ because it was the last option on the field that had the examples So it isn’t official at all (since I don’t hold to a religion), I just took what I know into account, thought about it, and arrived at that conclusion.

Are you anti-semitic?

Not at all! I don’t understand how anyone can hate someone else based merely on ethnicity or religion, period.

So throughout history (at least middle east history), after conquering the place, has ANYONE actually “regarded the inhabitants” when drawing the borders? It’s a good idea. But was it ever done? Just curious why you expect it to be different now.

I believe Haroun Al-Rashid did. In fact, many Muslim conquerors allowed people to pay tribute for some degree of autonomy (including freedom from military service, freedom of religion, permission to trade, etc.). It’s actually a tenet of Sharia law; it wasn’t always followed, but nobody’s perfect

The Romans, when they conquered Judea, tried to put their eagles up above the temple – but took them down after the locals pitched a fit and granted the region some amount of self-governance and some other cultural concessions (such as allowing the Sanhedrin governmental influence). And as Gaius Julius Caesar put it, omnia Gallia est in tres partes divides, and when it was conquered it stayed that way.

There’ve been other incidences too, but I can’t bring those to mind right now. So yes, it’s happened before, and considering this happened in the 20th century, I’d have hoped people would be a little more civilized about it.

 

[Karin]

Hi Karin!
.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_39.gifMidrath!

 

[ricmat]

Hi Karin!
I believe Haroun Al-Rashid did. In fact, many Muslim conquerors allowed people to pay tribute for some degree of autonomy (including freedom from military service, freedom of religion, permission to trade, etc.). It’s actually a tenet of Sharia law; it wasn’t always followed, but nobody’s perfect

The Romans, when they conquered Judea, tried to put their eagles up above the temple – but took them down after the locals pitched a fit and granted the region some amount of self-governance and some other cultural concessions (such as allowing the Sanhedrin governmental influence). And as Gaius Julius Caesar put it, omnia Gallia est in tres partes divides, and when it was conquered it stayed that way.

There’ve been other incidences too, but I can’t bring those to mind right now. So yes, it’s happened before, and considering this happened in the 20th century, I’d have hoped people would be a little more civilized about it.

Mirdath, it seems you have a fan club

On to my issues: I think there was a disconnect here. You made a point about the arbitrary drawing of borders leading to chaos - certainly a valid point to consider. I asked for some actual examples of conquerors actually drawing the borders with regard to the inhabitants. Your response directly above seemed to go off in other directions.

But to your points above, your first paragraph could equally apply to the Israel of today … degree of autonomy (including freedom from military service, freedom of religion, permission to trade, etc.)

And as I recall, the earthly paradise you describe in paragraph 2 was so wonderful that the Jews rebelled, and the Romans totally levelled Jerusalem, including the holiest place in all of Judaism - the Temple. As a result, the Jews have no place to worship, even to this day. That’s quite a lot of “regard for the inhabitants”

So far as your 3rd paragraph, I’d hope things would be better these days as well. But if I had to lay money on it, I’d pray for it to happen but bet on the opposite

 

[Mirdath]

Mirdath, it seems you have a fan club

hehe, well, I’d like to thank… oh nevermind

But to your points above, your first paragraph could equally apply to the Israel of today … degree of autonomy (including freedom from military service, freedom of religion, permission to trade, etc.)

Thing is, the examples I gave conquered the land and then respected the inhabitants who were already there. They didn’t ship a load of new people in after evicting the current residents; they made it worth the locals’ while to buy in to their way of doing things. Nothing of the sort has been done for the Palestinians, and it’s actually getting worse for them.

And as I recall, the earthly paradise you describe in paragraph 2 was so wonderful that the Jews rebelled, and the Romans totally levelled Jerusalem, including the holiest place in all of Judaism - the Temple. As a result, the Jews have no place to worship, even to this day. That’s quite a lot of “regard for the inhabitants”

They may have been semi-autonomous, but when a province rebels, what are you going to do as Emperor? Just say ‘oh, okay’ and let them get on with it? Lose all those resources, all that trade, all the infrastructure you’ve put in, have to ransom out your people in the area? No way! You’re going to show them who’s the boss! And that’s exactly what the Romans did. They realized that they’d been perhaps too lax (objectively an accurate assessment) and tightened it up after the reconquest.

I was talking specifically of the original conquest though – as the Empire crumbled things did go to pot everywhere. Sorry I wasn’t too clear on that

 

[chosen_people]

The best way to understand what is happening to the Christian community in the middle east outside of Israel is to hear it from someone who has experienced it. Brigitte Gabriel is a leabonese Christian who has experienced it first hand. I strongly urge any one who is interested to visit her web site and take the time to see the videos of her interviews about Christian persecution

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

 

[Angelos]

This is a strange piece of logic here. “Arabs and Jews collaborated and are related peoples, therefore, they were for bloodshed.” I really don’t see anything coherent here that I can respond to.

It definitely is a strong piece of logic there because it reflects your misunderstanding rather than my original statement. Arabs were powerful yesterday, but they are victims today. Swapping roles is inevitable in history, and this unfortunately blocks the way to justice. I do not have to support the Arabs basically because they are the victims today. Many communities had been prey to Arabs in their golden age. So what?

They certainly preferred to the alternative, which was living under Christian rule.

… and today Jews prefer American support & separation from Palestinians to complying with Arabs against Christians. What a drastic change!

I don’t understand what you’re saying here. Are you seriously claiming that there are no Palestinian Christians???

Or are you saying that George Habash was secretly not a Christian??? I’m confused. This is a really strange claim to make on either count.

I was ironic.

But didn’t you just tell me that Arabs actually supported Israel if they weren’t Muslim? Which is it, Arab or Muslim that is against Israel?

Arabs that are Muslims are against Israel. I would not regard an Arab supporting Hezbollah as Christian. It is similar to your consideration of Lebanese Christians as non-Arabs.

Well, you can read the polls for yourself. They are published in Haaretz, the Daily Star, and numerous other English language sources. No need to rely on “I heard this from someone”…you can read accurate polls on the political parties in Lebanon for yourself.

Thanks, but I shall still prefer believing in what I hear from *the people I know *rather than some writers whose sincerity I doubt.

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

 

[Valke2]

Anti-Semitism is clearly anti Christian. Israel is a matchbox in the middle of a football field. Why would you want to take our matchbox away?

 

[KenEOTE]

Well we can all blame God for Zionism. Its his fault he started it all by promising the Land to Israel. In fact if you want to really got controversial look at the land he promised them. The boarders are much larger than the land they have at the moment. He promised them all the way to the Persian Gulf and down to the Red Sea.

 

[angelusm]

Christianity and Judaism preach something different. We believe that Jesus is God while in Judaism Jesus doesn’t exist, he is considered to be a liar. That’s why Jews do a lot to destroy Christianity, especially Catholicism.
We have to preach the truth about Jesus and it doesn’t matter that Jews may call us antisemits (in fact anything they call antisemitism anything they don’t like). It’s our duty to pray for their conversion as they may have a big problem on the judgement day…