Is anyone else irked by the phrase "social justice"?

[Abu]

powerofk #79
Unfettered capitalism exists anywhere any country refuses to (or is unable to) instill or enforce just laws regarding trading, company merging, and the payment of taxes. Unfettered capitalism happens when a country decides that the interests of those who consider money their god trump the interests of the rest of society.

Since “unfettered” = not bound by shackles and chains/unrestrained, the term is meaningless – such a situation exists nowhere. That imperfections exist is part of the warp and woof of mankind. That laws may, can and do undergo improvement in virtually every sphere of life and occupation is part of man’s imperfection and his ability to solve problems. On moral issues, laws today are too often retrograde.

This phobia however can exist in the minds of those who do not know of, or fail to appreciate, the great developments in the discoveries of the Catholic Late Scholastics and the recognition given to free enterprise by Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
CA 42. ‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?
‘The answer is obviously complex. If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’

In the Encyclical Letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis (On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, Pope John Paul II emphasises: “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.”

What is necessary is to strive for improvement in every area of life so threatened today, but setting up a straw man helps no one.

 

[Reep]

Bl John Paul II shows us the way which many are following.

“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.

“In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.” Centesimus Annus, 1991, 48].

http://freeisbeautiful.net/wp-content/uploads/Libertarian-Jesus.jpg

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Specifically ignoring St Paul and Sacred Scripture leads to the grave error of taking from others to feed those who will not work:
“For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.” [2 Thess 3:10].

And what of those who CANNOT work?

 

[Reep]

Originally Posted by Abu:
Specifically ignoring St Paul and Sacred Scripture leads to the grave error of taking from others to feed those who will not work:

“For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.” [2 Thess 3:10].

And what of those who CANNOT work?

Does anyone really not know the difference between "CANNOT work" (e.g. disabled) and "will not work"(lazy)?

Even if someone cannot work, that does not mean the Christian answer is to rob one’s neighbor to help the needy. This is not just an matter of individual charity (which in many case will be insufficient to meet the need).

This requires institutional efforts, especially, the churches, charitable associations–and most important–the resurrection of voluntary mutual aid associations, which once were the “safety net” of this country, especially for the poor and minorities. Let’s just put away the government coercion. Violence is not a better choice simply because it is wielded by the state.

http://freeisbeautiful.net/wp-content/uploads/Welfare.jpg

 

[Michael_Mayo]

This requires institutional efforts, especially, the churches, charitable associations–and most important–the resurrection of voluntary mutual aid associations, which once were the “safety net” of this country, especially for the poor and minorities. Let’s just put away the government coercion. Violence is not a better choice simply because it is wielded by the state.

I think we all know the difference between disabled (or too young or too old or downsized or layed off in a poor economy) and lazy.

Where do you see violence wielded by the state?

Have churches, charitable associations and voluntary mutual aid associations every been sufficient?

 

[GLam8833]

The MAIN POINT of the idea of the Church being more
considerate of the poor, I submit, is that the GOSPEL
will seem to be more a CONCRETE reality expressed
thru loving concern for the welfare of the people, not
just a “spiritual concept” that to the uninitiated is hard
to grasp!!

 

[Abu]

Michael Mayo #82
And what of those who CANNOT work?

See post #76:
‘When you love your neighbour you encourage those “refusing to work” to face reality and God’s creation and get out and find work; you help others to produce goods and services, you don’t indulge their destructive whims and fancies.’

“In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.” Centesimus Annus, 1991, 48].

The reality from the acknowledged Saint John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
#48. “In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.

That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West.

 

[christofirst]

That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West.

You are so right! That’s why I turn to our bishops, who provided us with a fine guiding document in 1986: “Economic Justice For All: Pastoral Letter on Catholic Social Teaching and the U.S. Economy.” It has this to say about our social obligation as citizens:

"76. These duties call not only for individual charitable giving but also for a more systematic approach by businesses, labor unions, and the many other groups that shape economic life - as well as government. The concentration of privilege that exists today results far more from institutional relationships that distribute power and wealth inequitably than from differences in talent or lack of desire to work. These institutional patterns must be examined and revised if we are to meet the demands of basic justice. For example, a system of taxation based on assessment according to ability to pay is a prime necessity for fulfillment of these social obligations."

If I’m reading this right, it sounds like our bishops don’t share the view that the unemployed on welfare are all simply lazy. And, I don’t see anything equating taxes with stealing. In fact, it looks as though the wealthy should be shouldering a greater proportion of our communal tax burden, based on their greater ability to pay. I’m glad we have the Church to guide us!

 

[Reep]

Where do you see violence wielded by the state?

If you do anything they do not want you to do–even if your conduct harms no one, except perhaps yourself–they can kidnap you, subject you to a trial, and then throw you in a cage for as long as it seems good to them.

In addition, you might try not paying your income tax. Once again, they can send you to prison. They may kill you if you resist. Trust me on this. I am a criminal defense lawyer. This really happens.

Have churches, charitable associations and voluntary mutual aid associations every been sufficient?

Actually, those options were much better. They did not depend on violence. Because they were local, they did not create an unhealthy and dishonest dependency. They were economically efficient. There is a very good recent podcast on this topic from the author of From Mutual Aid to the Welfare State: Fraternal Societies and Social Services, 1890-1967. Listen to Before the Welfare State here (or download here.)

 

[JB_Dugan]

Social justice can truly only be accomplished at a local level. As Pope Francis said, we have to get down and dirty and in the trenches to help those who are suffering in our own backyards. Our poor don’t need gifts of money - they need gifts that take actual time out of our day. Sure, they need food at the moment, but even more than this, they need help getting work and getting housing. They need someone to listen to their stories and someone to help with their medical needs, both physical and mental. Most of our poor really don’t want hand-outs - they want someone to help them - really help them - find a way out of poverty. Many, if not most, of them feel trapped with no way out unless someone personally intervenes. It’s a job that requires all of us to work together.

Best perception and answer so far.

Before anyone else offers their view or definition of social justice ask yourself, have I taken any time out of my day to help ANYONE? Have I tried to help someone get a job?

OR…

Am I content to let a government do it…???

My question…is the Church implying that government should take over it’s primary Earthly responsibility…Charity??

 

[christofirst]

Best perception and answer so far.

Before anyone else offers their view or definition of social justice ask yourself, have I taken any time out of my day to help ANYONE? Have I tried to help someone get a job?

OR…

Am I content to let a government do it…???

My question…is the Church implying that government should take over it’s primary Earthly responsibility…Charity??

No, the Church never implies that government should take over our duty of charity, only that** it does have a role to play**. I have a jolly good time here cherry picking the most progressive sounding parts of Church documents, because they do exist! Of course, the Church is really all about balance where we have a legitimate choice, about being neither left nor right. Every statement from the Church about our obligation as citizens to pay taxes and to provide for the most needy comes with the warning that state welfare is meant to be a temporary fix. I know as well as anyone here that the band-aid of welfare has become a way of life for some otherwise able-bodied people, and this is not right. What bothers me is when I hear conservatives talk about dismantling the social safety net, using the reason of those bad apples. This will only hurt the many more people in genuine need. When I hear people say that government has no part to play in our social obligation to help the poor, I must point out that the Church does not agree.

You are right. In a perfect world, we would all join hands and help our brothers and sisters in need. Some will argue that our present system of government welfare prevents us from doing this, but I say they are wrong. I say that as citizens of a democracy, we are joining together and helping our brothers and sisters in need by pooling our resources through the government agencies we have established. Some say that if we scale back those government agencies, everyone will take up the slack through their generosity, but I am doubtful. And the Church seems to understand human nature well enough too, which is why the positive role of government is always included in the social justice documents

 

[Holly3278]

I am not irked by it. I kind of like the phrase. However, I like the phrase “social charity” even more because it suggests that we should be loving to all people. Indeed, we should love all people. Jesus Christ called us to love our neighbor as ourselves and we should even love our enemies!

And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Then Peter said in reply, “Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?” Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many that are first will be last, and the last first.
(Matthew 19:16-30 RSV-CE)

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any question.
(Mark 12:28-34 RSV-CE)

"But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them. "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
(Luke 6:27-36 RSV-CE)

 

[Reep]

I am not irked by it. I kind of like the phrase. However, I like the phrase “social charity” even more because it suggests that we should be loving to all people. Indeed, we should love all people. Jesus Christ called us to love our neighbor as ourselves and we should even love our enemies!
(Luke 6:27-36 RSV-CE)

I agree with you, but those who favor the welfare state prefer social “justice” because justice carries with it the justification of using force to take from the “donor” and give to the recipient. Love–unfortunately–has little to do with it.

 

[GLam8833]

Mind if I borrow a quote form Holly?
quote:
“Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Then Peter said in reply, “Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?” Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Unquote

We ARE the Kingdom of God, and we must give ALL first to God and then to the poor!!!
But what does mere talk accomplish? I tell you about the Church, at least in N. America,
“It’'s gates are burned with fire and it’s walls are broken down”(Neh 1), What can we do?
First, renew your eyes to the poor, Second, Pray, mourn and acknowledge your sins in
this regard, personal, your family and the Church leaders. That they might be alerted to
the state of the Church and ACT to remedy it. We are few in number, but w/ the Lord God
“all thing ARE possible” Maybe the Church’s gates will again be called “praise”(Is 60:18)
for the Praise and Glory of His name, for our good and the good of all His holy Church,
at His II Advent!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

If you do anything they do not want you to do–even if your conduct harms no one, except perhaps yourself–they can kidnap you, subject you to a trial, and then throw you in a cage for as long as it seems good to them.

In addition, you might try not paying your income tax. Once again, they can send you to prison. They may kill you if you resist. Trust me on this. I am a criminal defense lawyer. This really happens.

You prefer no law enforcement?

 

[Reep]

Originally Posted by Reep:
*If you do anything they do not want you to do–even if your conduct harms no one, except perhaps yourself–they can kidnap you, subject you to a trial, and then throw you in a cage for as long as it seems good to them.

In addition, you might try not paying your income tax. Once again, they can send you to prison. They may kill you if you resist. Trust me on this. I am a criminal defense lawyer. This really happens.*

You prefer no law enforcement?

Not really. I prefer just laws, where no one could legally use violence except to defend themselves or their property. We would still need professional security services.

Since private security now outnumbers state and local law enforcement by a factor of 3 to 1, I see little impediment to moving to a private security system funded by restitution from the criminals themselves. I have always thought we must be idiots not to make the lawbreakers fund the criminal justice system.

For more, here is my free audiobook chapter on Crime, Police and the Courts

 

[JB_Dugan]

Every statement from the Church about our obligation as citizens to pay taxes and to provide for the most needy comes with the warning that state welfare is meant to be a temporary fix.

There is nothing more permanent than a “temporary” government program.

 

[JB_Dugan]

Mind if I borrow a quote form Holly?
quote:
“Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Then Peter said in reply, “Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?” Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Unquote

I grow very tired of this…rich man poor man. Let’s look at another perspective:

Poor Jesus would not have had a tomb, if it were not for a RICH man. Do you think Joseph of Aramathia was worried about camels and needles???

You can’t help the poor by tearing down the rich.

When the Church needs money to help the poor, who does she ask first?

Simply asked…who really helps the poor? Not the poor. Not the middle class. THE GENEROUS RICH help the poor.

Who establishes children’s hospitals that turn no one away?
Who creates foundations that provide top notch educational opportunities for disadvantaged youth?
Who builds and supports homes and clinics for unwed mothers?

Answer: Generous rich people and generous major corporations.

We ARE the Kingdom of God, and we must give ALL first to God and then to the poor!!!
But what does mere talk accomplish? I tell you about the Church, at least in N. America,
“It’'s gates are burned with fire and it’s walls are broken down”(Neh 1), What can we do?
First, renew your eyes to the poor, Second, Pray, mourn and acknowledge your sins in
this regard, personal, your family and the Church leaders. That they might be alerted to
the state of the Church and ACT to remedy it. We are few in number, but w/ the Lord God
“all thing ARE possible” Maybe the Church’s gates will again be called “praise”(Is 60:18)
for the Praise and Glory of His name, for our good and the good of all His holy Church,
at His II Advent!

That is pure Altruism!.. You are saying that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

That concept is abhorrent to any intelligent individual as well as an affront to God’s will.

Is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for you to keep a value, why is it moral for others to accept it?

If you are selfless and virtuous when you give it, are they not selfish and vicious when they take it?

It is said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive,” Sorry, in this life it does not work that way. The givers are never blessed; the more they give, the more is demanded of them; complaints, reproaches and insults are the only response they get for being benevolent.

Altruism cannot permit a recognition of virtue; it cannot permit self-esteem or moral innocence. Guilt is altruism’s stock in trade, and the inducing of guilt is its only means of self-perpetuation. If the giver is not kept under a torrent of degrading, demeaning accusations, he might take a look around and put an end to the self-sacrificing.

Then who will help the poor?

 

[Abu]

It is time to face reality.

As the eminent Fr James Schall, S.J., points out this is how poverty in the world is alleviated:
“Since the Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185).

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Since private security now outnumbers state and local law enforcement by a factor of 3 to 1, I see little impediment to moving to a private security system funded by restitution from the criminals themselves. I have always thought we must be idiots not to make the lawbreakers fund the criminal justice system.

That assumes criminals have the resources to pay restitution. If they do, by all means.