Is anyone on the fence?

[mgoforth]

I’ve read the Catechism, bible etc. Essentially all we have to go on is the traditions which were subject to human biases and interpretations.

So then was God foolish to choose that method to pass on His teachings? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit was given to protect the Church from error?

 

[TheInquisitor]

You’d have to point me to that part in Summa Theologica. He references Christ’s sacrifice as a martyrdom in Question 124 Article 1: "Wherefore just as in the case of baptized children the merit of Christ is conducive to the acquisition of glory through the baptismal grace, so in those who were slain for Christ’s sake the merit of Christ’s martyrdom is conducive to the acquisition of the martyr’s palm."

That’s not to say it wasn’t of His own accord, as you say. He was a willing victim…but so were many of the martyrs of the Church. You don’t have to be dragged kicking and screaming to be considered a martyr. Consider this excerpt from an article on St. Cyprian: “The day following he was examined for the last time and sentenced to die by the sword. His only answer was “Thanks be to God!” The execution was carried out at once in an open place near the city. A vast multitude followed Cyprian on his last journey. He removed his garments without assistance, knelt down, and prayed. After he blindfolded himself, he was beheaded by the sword.”

newadvent.org/summa/4048.htm#2

Article 3 Objection 3. However, now that I see it in the light you put it in, I get that it was murder on their part.

One more thing, how is Christ’s willingness to walk into his passion not Suicide?

 

[clmowry]

I’ve read the Catechism, bible etc. Essentially all we have to go on is the traditions which were subject to human biases and interpretations.

Why would you presume that God was incapable of protecting His Church and its Traditions from corruption by human biasis?

Chuck

 

[mgoforth]

newadvent.org/summa/4048.htm#2

Article 3 Objection 3. However, now that I see it in the light you put it in, I get that it was murder on their part.

One more thing, how is Christ’s willingness to walk into his passion not Suicide?

It’s not suicide because He didn’t kill Himself, as you said He was put to death by others. He didn’t actually commit the action. The same way that the martyrs didn’t commit suicide, even though most of them understood that they’d be killed for their beliefs. With Christ it was a unique case, because He’d seen the future and knew beyond any doubt that He would die if He allowed the Passion and Crucifixion to take place. Make sure you understand that as a human being, He had the free fill to turn away, and as God He certainly had the power to prevent His death. But He chose to obey the Father and submit Himself to an unjust punishment instead.

Praise Jesus for His sacrifice, because without Him that punishment would have been reserved for us!

 

[Spyral]

Why would you presume that God was incapable of protecting His Church and its Traditions from corruption by human biasis?

Chuck

So then was God foolish to choose that method to pass on His teachings? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit was given to protect the Church from error?

You’re presuming that i) god exists, ii) he/she/it cares, iii) that it influences human free will to the point that a select group cannot be in error with regards to certain aspects of their faith. It’s highly cyclical.

Perhaps I think God would provide a better way - delivering gold tablets by angels would actually be pretty cool.

I also don’t like the fact that we’re damned to hell by virtue of being born unless we reprent/are baptised. not choosing = going to hell.
It’s like dropping babies in a warzone - they didn’t ask for it and it’s not very fair. And surely god is fair and just?

 

[mgoforth]

You’re presuming that i) god exists, ii) he/she/it cares, iii) that it influences human free will to the point that a select group cannot be in error with regards to certain aspects of their faith. It’s highly cyclical.

Perhaps I think God would provide a better way - delivering gold tablets by angels would actually be pretty cool.

I also don’t like the fact that we’re damned to hell by virtue of being born unless we reprent/are baptised. not choosing = going to hell.
It’s like dropping babies in a warzone - they didn’t ask for it and it’s not very fair. And surely god is fair and just?

So would you say that you’re “on the fence”? It seems like you want to stay on the non-believing side of the fence. I’d like to help if these are things you really want to believe…if you don’t then the only thing I can do is pray for the Holy Spirit to give you that desire. It’s hard for me to tell over the internet what your motives are, so let me know if I’m wrong. But I’m getting a strong feeling that you came to argue against the Faith, which is not what this thread is about.

 

[Spyral]

I feel that there is something spiritual. But I find flaws in Christianity. It’s hard not to believe/have faith but it seems to me that most intellectually ethical position to take, rather than believing for the sake of it. If I was to ‘just believe’ I might as well believe in Banjo the Clown!

 

[clmowry]

You’re presuming that i) god exists, ii) he/she/it cares,

Well yeah. If not that would kind of make all conversations on HIs ability to protect Scripture while not being able to protect His Church a fundamental waste of time would it not?
iii) that it influences human free will to the point that a select group cannot be in error with regards to certain aspects of their faith. It’s highly cyclical.

I’m not sure that this protection forces the violation of free will. It may take nothing more than a more thorough informing of the conscience of the bishop involved.
Perhaps I think God would provide a better way - delivering gold tablets by angels would actually be pretty cool.

I guess. Is He going to do this every time we’d like to read a verse? Or just once per person. If the an angel did so not quite 2,000 years ago, how would that help?
I also don’t like the fact that we’re damned to hell by virtue of being born unless we repent/are baptized. not choosing = going to hell.
It’s like dropping babies in a warzone - they didn’t ask for it and it’s not very fair. And surely god is fair and just?

What does this have to do with God protecting the words in a book vs. the teachings of a Church?

If every subject is going to be a debate about the existence of God, then you’ve come to the wrong place.

Atheism and Evolution threads are currently banned.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

I feel that there is something spiritual. But I find flaws in Christianity. It’s hard not to believe/have faith but it seems to me that most intellectually ethical position to take, rather than believing for the sake of it. If I was to ‘just believe’ I might as well believe in Banjo the Clown!

What do you mean by “something spiritual”? Something outside of the created universe? Something that cares?

I presume you have no evidence that Banjo the Clown is divine?

Chuck

 

[Spyral]

Firstly I’ve not mentioned evolution.

What do you mean by “something spiritual”? Something outside of the created universe? Something that cares?

I presume you have no evidence that Banjo the Clown is divine?

The same amount of evidence that Jesus is God. Nothing more than faith/thoughts.

 

[clmowry]

Firstly I’ve not mentioned evolution.

Didn’t mean to imply you did. I was just pointing it out with the other so you would be aware.

The same amount of evidence that Jesus is God. Nothing more than faith/thoughts.

That is not even remotely close to a fair assement of the historical Jesus or the testimony of eye witnesses to His Life, Death and Ressurection.

Chuck

 

[mgoforth]

The same amount of evidence that Jesus is God. Nothing more than faith/thoughts.

I don’t want to get too far off topic, but there’s very little evidence for anything at all. For instance, how do you know the computer screen you’re reading this on exists? Your senses tell you, but human senses are fooled all the time. How do you know that you’re not schizophrenic or suffering from Alzheimer’s and this is all just a hallucination? Can we really “know” anything at all?

You probably won’t ever find any direct physical proof of God’s existence if that’s what you’re hoping for. But ask yourself why God would want to show you signs and wonders if you’re not willing to believe first?

At that time two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and one on the left. And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him. He trusts in God, let God rescue Him now, if He delights in Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words. Matthew 27: 38-44

I’m sure you probably don’t mean them to be, but the questions you’re asking are mocking God. Saying “How do I know Jesus is God anymore than Banjo the Clown” or “Maybe angels could bring down plates of gold” is like saying “come down off your cross and I’ll believe”. Christ won’t stoop to being anyone’s circus monkey the same way that He didn’t honor the Jews’ sarcastic requests to see a miracle.

 

[Spyral]

That is not even remotely close to a fair assement of the historical Jesus or the testimony of eye witnesses to His Life, Death and Ressurection.

All of which was written down 170 odd years AFTER he died? The story grows in the telling.

But ask yourself why God would want to show you signs and wonders if you’re not willing to believe first?

I’m not mocking god. Why not believe in banjo the clown - if you do he will show you a sign! It’s a very false logic. I believed in god for a long time but I’m seriously reconsidering my posiiton.

I don’t want to get too far off topic, but there’s very little evidence for anything at all. For instance, how do you know the computer screen you’re reading this on exists? Your senses tell you, but human senses are fooled all the time. How do you know that you’re not schizophrenic or suffering from Alzheimer’s and this is all just a hallucination? Can we really “know” anything at all?

Maybe I’m just a brain in a jar…

 

[mgoforth]

That is not even remotely close to a fair assement of the historical Jesus or the testimony of eye witnesses to His Life, Death and Ressurection.

All of which was written down 170 odd years AFTER he died? The story grows in the telling.

What we have is what we have. Would it have been ideal for the Apostles to write everything down as it happened? Sure. But who knows if most of them even knew how to write, I don’t think it was a common skill at the time. All anyone can do is show you the door, it’s up to you whether you walk through it…or whether you say there’s no door at all.

But ask yourself why God would want to show you signs and wonders if you’re not willing to believe first?

I’m not mocking god. Why not believe in banjo the clown - if you do he will show you a sign! It’s a very false logic. I believed in god for a long time but I’m seriously reconsidering my posiiton.

Not false logic. Jesus showed plenty of signs, some as a response to faith and some without anyone asking Him. But He didn’t perform miracles for those who were skeptical of Him just to prove Himself. Big difference. If you don’t want to believe then you probably won’t. If you want to believe and ask God to help you, He will help you overcome your doubts. It’s up to you in the end.

And whether you realize it or not, you’re mocking God. Comparing the Almighty Creator of the Universe, the Savior of the world, the Master of life and death to a clown, a flying spaghetti monster, or any other cutesy image is flat-out disrespectful.

 

[LegoGE1947]

What we have is what we have. Would it have been ideal for the Apostles to write everything down as it happened? Sure. But who knows if most of them even knew how to write, I don’t think it was a common skill at the time. All anyone can do is show you the door, it’s up to you whether you walk through it…or whether you say there’s no door at all.

Not false logic. Jesus showed plenty of signs, some as a response to faith and some without anyone asking Him. But He didn’t perform miracles for those who were skeptical of Him just to prove Himself. Big difference. If you don’t want to believe then you probably won’t. If you want to believe and ask God to help you, He will help you overcome your doubts. It’s up to you in the end.

And whether you realize it or not, you’re mocking God. Comparing the Almighty Creator of the Universe, the Savior of the world, the Master of life and death to a clown, a flying spaghetti monster, or any other cutesy image is flat-out disrespectful.

Anyone interested might want to watch todays episode of "The Vortex"http://www.realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=vort-2012-04-03 The subject is “The Resurrection” Either it is true or the greatest hoax in human history!

 

[Spyral]

. If you don’t want to believe then you probably won’t. If you want to believe and ask God to help you, He will help you overcome your doubts. It’s up to you in the end.

Again I disagree, my experience has been to the contrary.

 

[mgoforth]

Again I disagree, my experience has been to the contrary.

Please explain.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Please explain.

Sure never heard of Banjo the Clown. I know about Roddy Mac, Capt’n Ernie, Grandpa Happy, Mr. Mustache, Mr Greenjeans, none of whom were divine. I have also heard of Jesus Christ who IS divine and also human but unlike the above characters is or was quite real and not just some made-up character! I heard just yesterday that Jesus is exactly who He claims to be or the biggest hoax ever foisted upon the human race. That would be very sad if the latter were the case because the whole of western civilization has been built upon Him and what He taught and did during his life on earth as well as his death and resurrection. (Which BTW the world will be observing in just a couple days)

 

[Stilldreamn]

To the OP, thank you for this opportunity.

Like Jon discussed in previous posts, I share concerns about the universal jurisdiction of the Pope. It is not insurmountable for me, but is something I find difficult.

The other concern is the Eucharist and Confession. As a Lutheran I believe in the Real Presence of Christ, although I was taught that we cannot know the “how” of it - it simply IS what Jesus said it is. I cannot participate in the Lord’s Supper without confession, either privately to our pastor (as I have sometimes done) or corporately. So far, pretty smooth.

What stops me cold, is knowing I will go nearly a year without the blessing of Christ’s Body and Blood while I go through RCIA. I don’t think I could do that.

 

[SamanthaT]

So using the Queen Mother analogy, we’re not claiming Mary is royalty in the sense of being equal with Jesus Christ the King of Heaven, but that she “married into the family” and is given special recognition and privileges in Heaven as the King’s mother.

Does that help at all?

I am not on the fence at all (going to be baptized on sat!) but I just wanted to chime in that this explanation is great. It makes a lot of sense when you put it this way thank you