Is arizona law right?

[lelhajj]

I seem to be unable to access the older posts in the discussion, so I still can’t find it.

Police are usually called after or during an attack. When else would they be called?

And the fact that the police were called does not make it a hate crime.

And we still do not know anything about the details of the “attack.”

Since we still have no details about the attack, or what prompted it, it is very hard to evaluate your statements here.

It is not very hard to see what this law has caused. I encourage you to take a look at the messages that are been posted in that web page: HATE AGAINST EACH OTHER. CIVIL UNREST. how can i law be correct if this is what it is creating? Even us, catholics, are been unmerciful. Sorry to say that, but, it is a reality. We should not get blind by human written law, we are obliged to preach compassion and love.

 

[TenBobNote]

The law is not right, not constitutional, not American and not Christian. In a way, very anti-Catholic too, since the people targeted are almost all Catholic, and probably on average more devout Catholics than their “American cousins”.

I like that Archbishop Dolan (New York) published an article calling the law “unbiblical, inhumane, and un-American”. And I like that Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles publicly denounced it as well, calling it “retrogressive, mean-spirited, and useless”.

American Catholicism and immigration are very intertwined, and in our nation’s history we have seen these attacks several times, which have targeted “poor” immigrant Catholics to a great extent. It is amazing that the attitudes I thought had finally disappeared decades ago have resurfaced with a vengeance. But it is good to see the American Catholic Church represented by such eminent figures as Dolan and Mahony take the lead in fighting it.

Catholics should be proud of these men and many others like them in representing the Church and living the Gospel in attacking hate, fear and bigotry.

As for the “unconstitutional” claim, I refer you to this article, lewrockwell.com/orig11/natelson2.1.1.html

 

[lelhajj]

I think the government should have made the immigration law reform, take hands on it, being fair and follow the laws or rules that were instated before. Government did not do anything about it and has not done anything about until now.
It would have saved all this chaos. The separation of races. The tolerance and respect towards each other.
You can not write a lot written by a group of racists. this is not what the usa is about.

 

[lelhajj]

I raised my children to be proud of who they are, to respect the law, to respect Jesus principles. Where is the fairness in all these? Now, my children might be harrassed, might be ashamed of who they are, might be rejected by their friends, might be psychological affected because of what this law has created. Might be not good citizens due to the fact that their ancestry is being demonized, humilliated, mistreated.
Do you think that they will wonder where is God, where is the good will of a person?
Do you think that they will not deny their ancestry?
What are we doing, i wonder. What are we promoting?

 

[lelhajj]

TenBob, are you a catholic? a practicing catholic or just a “name” one?
Who is first for you, God laws or human laws with its flaws?
Sorry to bother you, but, you better really meditate who shall be first and who should we follow.
God’s first commandment: Love Me above everything else.
Who do you love first: God or your country or your family?
If you choose God, then, follow God’s commandments.

 

[St_Francis]

St. Francis, did you click on the link? after clickin on the link and opening to the page: l million march, there is on the wall, in blue letters different titles: one of this is Discussions. You click on Discussions and once the discussions page open, you look for the thread: Attacked and harrassed in pima country or harrassed and attacked in pima county, it is on the first page of the discussion page.
i hope i made myself clear about how to get to that story.
Read it and then, write your opinion here.

Lel, you have made an assertion that this incident happened, and that it is evidence that the AZ law is bad. But you have offered no proof.

I ran a search in the news for mention of this incident–no mention. I went to the page you linked, no mention.

Now you are asking me to wade through 1039 comment titles to find what *you *are supposed to provide?

If you want people to take you seriously, *you *need to provide the link, not ask others to find it.

 

[chaunceygardner]

As for the “unconstitutional” claim, I refer you to this article, lewrockwell.com/orig11/natelson2.1.1.html

This is all about the 10th Amendment, reserving certain rights to the states. Nothing about the other Amendments in the Bill of Rights? Certainly a state can pass a law but having the power to do so does not make the law right or just or fair. Or constitutional.

When I was a child living in the midwest I was driving in the country with my dad. We saw a truckload of hispanic people on the highway pulling into a farm field. I asked my dad who all those people were. “Migrant workers”, he said, and he explained that the canning companies in the area hired them (“Mexicans”) to pick the beans and peas and work in the cannery for a few weeks. They then moved on, perhaps to California or Arizona, and then back to Mexico. “Where do they stay”, I asked. “Migrant worker camps”, he said, and in our travels he pointed them out. Not much of a home. “But can’t people that live here do that work?”, I asked my dad. He said that no one in our area would do that work for just a few weeks or for the low pay. I wondered where the kids went to school, how they got around, how they could support their families, what kind of life they had, and thought about how far they had to travel to earn a few dollars. As I got older I realized that we were taking advantage of the poor and the vulnerable to save a few cents a can on our peas, beets, potatoes and green beans.

These people are people just like us, Catholics, hard workers. Why are they here? Because they want the opportunity and “we” (citizens of the USA) will hire them, in fact prefer to hire them in many cases. If the demand and opportunity did not exist, they wouldn’t be trying so hard to get here. So instead of targeting the “illegal workers”, perhaps we should be doing a better job of going after those who take advantage of them.

Of course, some of our crops would rot on the fields, and a lot of the menial labor wouldn’t get done, and the prices of what we buy (produced in the USA) would go up.

I find it interesting and sad that the major instances of racial or ethnic discrimination in our country has been how we treated blacks (for hundreds of years), Chinese workers during the late 1800’s, Japanese-Americans during WW II, and hispanics and hispanic Americans today.

And I guess many of the Catholics on this thread agree neither with their Church, the leaders of the Church, nor Jesus in the Gospel. That is even sadder.

 

[St_Francis]

It is not very hard to see what this law has caused. I encourage you to take a look at the messages that are been posted in that web page: HATE AGAINST EACH OTHER. CIVIL UNREST. how can i law be correct if this is what it is creating? Even us, catholics, are been unmerciful. Sorry to say that, but, it is a reality. We should not get blind by human written law, we are obliged to preach compassion and love.

I don’t think that this law is what is causing the problem. I think that what is causing the problem is the *lack of enforcement *of laws by the federal government, and to me at this point, that is just evidence of sheer corruption on the part of the politicians in DC.

We have a way to immigrate legally to this country. That way allows people from *all nations *to enter, not just those lucky enough to have been born in a country which borders ours. Is *that *fair, that Mexicans can come and go at will, while people in *real *need can’t?

And what about those in Mexico (as well as other nations) who have waited through the process to come here legally? Is it right for others to simply ignore our laws and come here in front of them? That’s like saying to those who are trying to respect our laws, no, our laws aren’t really important here, and amnesty just exacerbates that.

What exacerbates hate against people and stuff like that is not the law but the lawlessness. People who work hard to obey the law generally are not happy with those who break the law.

When Americans have to commute long hours, being away from their family, because they can’t get a local job because of people who disappear when La Migra is rumored to be on its way, that doesn’t cause some resentment? I know people in that position.

When people’s friends and family members are hurt or killed by someone who turns out to have been here illegally, you think that doesn’t cause resentment?

There are two sides to every argument, and what I see is that on the one side of this argument are people who ignore laws and advocate for an absurd amount of mercy while ignoring the problems of many people, and on the other side, people who support our laws and pay attention to the problems caused by illegal immigration.

I am all for reform–it should have been done properly in 1986. And the other 6 times we offered amnesty. Or in 2007. Reform the law so it fits with what we need and what others need, and enforce the law.

 

[lelhajj]

St. francis you click on the link i wrote, it opens to the wall of the l million march.
then, under the title (on top of the page) l million march, there are 6 subtitles: Wall,Information, Discussions, Photo, Video and Events.
Clik where it says: Discussions.
It opens to the Discussions page.
Look for the thread “harrassed and attacked in Pima, Arizona”.
Then read the whole thread.
Now, there is another new video also, where it shows that police where raiding Mc Donalds and one American Citizen was also detained and interrogated, felt very humilliated, etc. If i can find that link i will also post it here.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Drug related crimes due to that the addicted do not pay their debts is everywhere, not only in the usa.
In order to stop this, we must see the reason behind: who demands the drugs: americans have been demanding the drugs, otherwise it would not be traffic of them. This is not something new, this has been around for such a long time, maybe since the 60’s or 70’s. During those years, Mexico was not a country where his citizens where using or demanding drugs. The drugs started being demanded by americans drug addicts which created a drug ring between colombia, mexico and the usa and on the way they have created and damage what is mexico today, a total chaos worse than the usa. Who started all this? what was the reason of all this? in my opinion it was the americans drug addicts. If we do not control the addiction of such people how are we going to stop drug traffic?

I don’t think this is adequate. The cost of illegal drugs and their availability has a lot to do with their spread. Drug pushers often induce addiction by persuading young people to “try” a “free sample”. The cost is kept low until the addiction is firm.

It was just a few years ago that there was a spike in Heroin use because heroin prices fell due to copious supplies coming from Afghanistan.

Saying the drug cartel problem is the “fault” of the U.S. or of people in the U.S. really is, in many cases “blaming the victim” while leaving what is certainly the worse villain cast in the role of the “victim”.

 

[lelhajj]

I don’t think that this law is what is causing the problem. I think that what is causing the problem is the lack of enforcement of laws by the federal government, and to me at this point, that is just evidence of sheer corruption on the part of the politicians in DC.

 I certainly agree with you. And it should have passed a comprehensive immigration reform long time ago, instead of avoiding the problem.

We have a way to immigrate legally to this country. That way allows people from all nations to enter, not just those lucky enough to have been born in a country which borders ours. Is that fair, that Mexicans can come and go at will, while people in real need can’t?

 I agree with you that everybody should immigrate respecting the the laws of immigration of that country. But our government has allowed or turned a blind eye in the past, to let illegal immigrants to enter in order to lower the prices of our overall consumption of products, to keep our standard of living with a low budget, to make things more afordable for us. This is not something that nobody was aware of, but, pretty aware of such things but we turned a blind eye about it, because it was cheaper for us to survive and to live confortably. Therefore, the police and the government allowed it and we also allowed it.

What exacerbates hate against people and stuff like that is not the law but the lawlessness. People who work hard to obey the law generally are not happy with those who break the law.

 Sorry to contradict your statement or opinion, but, i am not an illegal and i am not lawlessness. But i can tell you that you might not be targetted at this law, but, me, as an hispanic i am being targetted as well as my children. If you were in my shoes, you would not think that the law is fair. I don't believe you would like to be stopped, harass, interrogated, everytime you step out of your house. Think about how many times do you have to leave your house a day? 24 X7? What are the repercutions of such harassment? just put yourself in my shoes, you take the car and then they stop you at every corner, every day. what would that do to your personality, how would you feel psychologically? how would you react as a parent? i believe it will drain you down, not only you and it will affect your family as well. Would i perform my job well, after being harass in such a way? could i be a good wife, coworker, etc?    Why me? i would keep asking myself? what did i do wrong?

When Americans have to commute long hours, being away from their family, because they can’t get a local job because of people who disappear when La Migra is rumored to be on its way, that doesn’t cause some resentment? I know people in that position.

 That resentment was not present before the housing market crashdown, on the opossite we were very comfortable living in our own bubble.  Now, things have changed, because there are lack of jobs. I wonder if now, americans are willing to go and get a job cleaning bathrooms, or work on the fields, etc. I don't believe you would accept to be paid a few cents per hour, then that would inflation. Are we ready to pay for one tomato 2 dls? houses are already expensive, how much are we willing to pay now for the same house if americans take over those construction's jobs? we will need no 10-15 years to pay our house's mortgages, but, probably we will die and we will never be able to finally pay our houses.

When people’s friends and family members are hurt or killed by someone who turns out to have been here illegally, you think that doesn’t cause resentment?

 Obviously it would cause a resentment as well as an american killing another american. Also, remember that crimes due to killing of somebody are not just made by illegals, in fact, a lot of them are done by our people.

I certainly agree with you that there must be a reform, and it should be handle it immediately, and not only by racists groups writting the law. In order to suceed about reforming the law, i believe we have very competitive people like lawyers, psychologists, clergy, economist that can certainly make the law more fair for all of us.

Thank you for the time you took to express your feelings and thoughts.

 

[St_Francis]

St. Francis, did you click on the link? after clickin on the link and opening to the page: l million march, there is on the wall, in blue letters different titles: one of this is Discussions. You click on Discussions and once the discussions page open, you look for the thread: Attacked and harrassed in pima country or harrassed and attacked in pima county, it is on the first page of the discussion page.
i hope i made myself clear about how to get to that story.
Read it and then, write your opinion here.

You do not seem to understand the nature of how debate works. You want us to read something in support of your assertion, then post the link to what you want us to read. Do not post directions to get to what you want us to read, find the page yourself and link it.

Secondly, try for a bit of accuracy, YUMA not Pima. That makes it so much easier for people who are willing to cut others some slack to actually do so.

Thirdly, here is the story:“My mom was a victim of a hate crime last night. I am very upset with the authorities & the racist women who hurt her. She may not speak [Enlish] and might be hispanic BUT she is LEGAL. Thanks, Arizona.”
these drunk ladies or high or whatever were harrassing her, broke her wipers, left scratches on her and were yelling profanities at her and called the cops telling them she was illegal. My mom was just driving down the road! they blocked her and did this to her. It was uncalled for. The authorities asked for her proof of citizenship and asked why … …]she was here if she couldnt even speak English. I am so angry. Those women took advantage of the fact that my mom didn’t speak English to fabricate a story about her. Trying to get her in jail. Fortunately, there was a witness and she was let go."

Drunk or high or whatever… Do you not understand that people who are out to do something like that just pick whomever? If they had been someplace else, they would have picked on someone else, maybe someone who was in a wheelchair, maybe a nun dressed in a habit.

I remember the news of a woman’s being shot years ago, why? because some stupid kid decided he wanted to find out what it felt like to shoot someone. Now, if the kid had been white and the woman Hispanic, then you’d probably be citing that incident as evidence.

The reality is that the *cause *of the problem is illegal immigration. This law would not have occurred if it weren’t for people coming over the border in AZ illegally.

 

[lelhajj]

Ridgerunner,
The people that started the drug trade and the people who asked for the drug are guilty of the problem that the drug traffic has caused. Besides that, mexico is already ruined due to the the early demands of americans addicts. Who demanded the drug first? mexicans or americans? the americans. I can blame americans that they started this problem and on the way they have ruined mexico. I can blame that colombians and americans started the problem and it is also true. I can blame that the mexican politicians are corrupted and that they were even involved in drug trafficking and that is the reason why the present mexican government is also having a big problem trying to get rid of such drug cartels, where so many innocent people are being killed even more than in usa. That people do not count also?

 

[lelhajj]

You do not seem to understand the nature of how debate works. You want us to read something in support of your assertion, then post the link to what you want us to read. Do not post directions to get to what you want us to read, find the page yourself and link it.

Secondly, try for a bit of accuracy, YUMA not Pima. That makes it so much easier for people who are willing to cut others some slack to actually do so.

Thirdly, here is the story:“My mom was a victim of a hate crime last night. I am very upset with the authorities & the racist women who hurt her. She may not speak [Enlish] and might be hispanic BUT she is LEGAL. Thanks, Arizona.”
these drunk ladies or high or whatever were harrassing her, broke her wipers, left scratches on her and were yelling profanities at her and called the cops telling them she was illegal. My mom was just driving down the road! they blocked her and did this to her. It was uncalled for. The authorities asked for her proof of citizenship and asked why … …]she was here if she couldnt even speak English. I am so angry. Those women took advantage of the fact that my mom didn’t speak English to fabricate a story about her. Trying to get her in jail. Fortunately, there was a witness and she was let go."

Drunk or high or whatever… Do you not understand that people who are out to do something like that just pick whomever? If they had been someplace else, they would have picked on someone else, maybe someone who was in a wheelchair, maybe a nun dressed in a habit.

I remember the news of a woman’s being shot years ago, why? because some stupid kid decided he wanted to find out what it felt like to shoot someone. Now, if the kid had been white and the woman Hispanic, then you’d probably be citing that incident as evidence.

The reality is that the *cause *of the problem is illegal immigration. This law would not have occurred if it weren’t for people coming over the border in AZ illegally.

No, they were targetting her probably before the incident happen. I guess somebody that they knew. Otherwise why they would come and vandalized her car and calling her illegal?
The problem was illegal immigration yes, but who promoted it? us, isn’t it? But, look, instead analizing the causes, which i believe we already did, look what such law is causing now? americans against americans; race against race, hispanic discrimination, fear of cleansing the races, segregation, discord between even catholics, civil unrest, promotion of such arizona law to be passed all around the country, it might caused also retaliation from the hispanic community as well as from the illegal immigrants.
Let’s meditate about the consequences that this law can cause and at the end of it, i believe we should request from our government for a more fair law, in case that you agree.
Let’s not think only in our own “bubble”, but let’s see the reasons why so many people are so dissatisfied with this law.
I am really meditating about what might happen, i am not only seen my “own side of the story”, i am looking farther to see what this unrest and unfairness is and might cause.

 

[lelhajj]

And St Francis, do not be so arrogant, i made a mistake about Pima and Yuma, you do not make mistakes?
Also, why are you upset? Am i hurting you? I believe we can discuss things in an amicable manner. We do not need to fight as we are children of God.
Not only children of God, linked by religion, but also linked by a country.

 

[josephdaniel29]

You already answered my question. RESIDENT ALIENS. Not american citizens.
If that is the case, am i supposed to be stopped and interrogated everytime i step out of the house just because i am or look hispanic? I am not illegal, but, i would not like to be treated like an illegal.

Good grief where do you get this stuff from? Every single human being in this country is required by law to carry identification. If the authorities stop you for a legal purpose they can require you or anybody else to present that ID. Looking Hispanic is not one of those purposes and only an extraordinarily ignorant person or one with an agenda would tell you otherwise.

If I get pulled over the cops ask for my ID, if you get pulled over they ask you for your ID and if an illegal alien gets pulled over the cops can ask for their ID. We are all treated exactly the same.

Let me ask you a question. Have you actually read the bill? If not I suggest you do so, maybe it will relieve some of the misconceptions you have about it.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[StMonica]

We should and do embrace legal immigrants but the USA has the right to set the quota of legal immigrants allowed entry every year. It is our right as a sovereign nation.

As to the Arizona law…see Pope Benedict’s response below:

“Understandably, as I urge Catholics to excel in the spirit of solidarity towards newcomers among them, I also invite the immigrants to recognize the duty to honour the countries which receive them and to respect the laws, culture and traditions of the people who have welcomed them. Only in this way will social harmony prevail.”

Here’s the link to the entire speech.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/migration/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20021202_world-migration-day-2003_en.html

What illegal immigrants forget is that by entering our country illegally they have already broken our laws and this is no way to begin what could have been a very nice relationship.

I can speak on this subject because my grandmother is an immigrant who did not speak english when she came here. She only spoke gaelic. The first thing she did was learn to speak english and assimilate into the American culture. She didn’t forget Ireland but she embraced her new homeland. She shared Ireland with all of us grandkids and now we can all speak a little gaelic and we can make some really great tea. I wish I knew how to write gaelic as she would always comment on our lousy tea in gaelic. Ever the genteel lady.

 

[St_Francis]

Hit the quote button at the bottom of the post you want to respond to, and the text box will have the quote in it. If you want to respond to one part of the quote and then resume the quote, go like this, *without the asterix: the other person’s text/quote] Your reply here *quote]The other person’s text again.

I also usually add in a few line spaces.

I agree with you that everybody should immigrate respecting the the laws of immigration of that country. But our government has allowed or turned a blind eye in the past, to let illegal immigrants to enter in order to lower the prices of our overall consumption of products, to keep our standard of living with a low budget, to make things more afordable for us. This is not something that nobody was aware of, but, pretty aware of such things but we turned a blind eye about it, because it was cheaper for us to survive and to live confortably. Therefore, the police and the government allowed it and we also allowed it.

Yes, our government I must admit has acted very badly in this respect, and quite frankly it makes me suspicious of their motives.

However, the fact that our government was not diligent in keeping illegal immigrants out does not remove the fact that the illegal immigrants did decide to come here illegally.

If someone steals a car in which the owner left the keys, is the thief given less of a sentence for that? No.

Sorry to contradict your statement or opinion, but, i am not an illegal and i am not lawlessness.

I am not sure how you gathered that I thought you were illegal or lawless, but I never assume anyone is either.

But i can tell you that you might not be targetted at this law, but, me, as an hispanic i am being targetted as well as my children.

I did not know you were Hispanic until I read that. How do you know I am not Hispanic?

If you were in my shoes, you would not think that the law is fair. I don’t believe you would like to be stopped, harass, interrogated, everytime you step out of your house. Think about how many times do you have to leave your house a day? 24 X7? What are the repercutions of such harassment? just put yourself in my shoes, you take the car and then they stop you at every corner, every day. what would that do to your personality, how would you feel psychologically? how would you react as a parent? i believe it will drain you down, not only you and it will affect your family as well. Would i perform my job well, after being harass in such a way? could i be a good wife, coworker, etc? Why me? i would keep asking myself? what did i do wrong?

This article explains more clearly than I can about what the law *actually *states. This part covers what you mention here: Anyone arrested for a crime must have their immigration status determined before they are released. Thus, it is **not just Hispanics **who will be required to provide evidence of citizenship, but so will all whites, blacks and Asians. If the eligibility for public services depends on citizenship, again, everyone who applies, regardless of race, will have to provide an ID. In other circumstances, law enforcement officials must have reasonable suspicion, not based simply on the person’s race or origin, that the individual is an illegal alien before they can ask to check someone’s ID…

The ID requested is hardly draconian: a driver’s license, a non-operating identification license, valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification, or “any valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification.” Rather than requiring multiple IDs as some fear, the law clearly says that “any” of the IDs is sufficient. And the notion of having to carry IDs is not something unique to Arizona. President Obama and many Democrats, such as Senator Charles Schumer, support a national ID card, so it hard to argue that Arizona’s requirement will impose an undue burden.

continued…

 

[St_Francis]

*…continued *

That resentment was not present before the housing market crashdown, on the opossite we were very comfortable living in our own bubble.

That is not true. I have been hearing about this for years, since long before the economic troubles started.

…I wonder if now, americans are willing to go and get a job cleaning bathrooms, or work on the fields, etc.

I know people who clean bathrooms and work in fields, etc., who are not Hispanic.

I don’t believe you would accept to be paid a few cents per hour, then that would inflation. Are we ready to pay for one tomato 2 dls? houses are already expensive, how much are we willing to pay now for the same house if americans take over those construction’s jobs? we will need no 10-15 years to pay our house’s mortgages, but, probably we will die and we will never be able to finally pay our houses.

So, it’s ok for us to pay artificially low prices because we are exploiting people? I don’t think so.

Obviously it would cause a resentment as well as an american killing another american. Also, remember that crimes due to killing of somebody are not just made by illegals, in fact, a lot of them are done by our people.

Yes, it is true that these crimes occur by people who are here legally, but when they occur as the result of someone who was not supposed to be here, there is a difference.

I certainly agree with you that there must be a reform, and it should be handle it immediately, and not only by racists groups writting the law. In order to suceed about reforming the law, i believe we have very competitive people like lawyers, psychologists, clergy, economist that can certainly make the law more fair for all of us.

I am not sure why you think that a law targeting illegal immigrants is automatically racist. As it happens, the vast majority of people in AZ illegally are Hispanic. Whose fault is that? And if the government decides to do something about it, then yes, because a disproportionate number of illegal immigrants are Hispanic, then the law will “disproportionately” affect Hispanics, but not because the police will go out looking for Hispanics to accuse of being illegally here, but because *after *they detain someone for *doing something else *they will check everyone’s documents, and check on the immigration status of those whose identifications are not satisfactory.

Thank you for the time you took to express your feelings and thoughts.

I think having discussions is good for all of us–I know that I have changed my mind about various things as a result, so thanks for your time too

 

[St_Francis]

And St Francis, do not be so arrogant, i made a mistake about Pima and Yuma, you do not make mistakes?
Also, why are you upset? Am i hurting you? I believe we can discuss things in an amicable manner. We do not need to fight as we are children of God.
Not only children of God, linked by religion, but also linked by a country.

I didn’t mean to sound arrogant, and i have made my share of mistakes. I was frustrated, and I apologize for sounding arrogant.