Is arizona law right?

[St_Francis]

Ridgerunner,
The people that started the drug trade and the people who asked for the drug are guilty of the problem that the drug traffic has caused. Besides that, mexico is already ruined due to the the early demands of americans addicts. Who demanded the drug first? …

…The problem was illegal immigration yes, but who promoted it? us, isn’t it?..

In both these responses, you are saying that the fault lies with the group which “created a demand,” so to speak. You are saying that the fault lies with the people who wanted drugs, and the fault lies with the government which did not carefully guard its borders.

But someone leaving their keys in the car does not somehow *require *me to steal their car, does it?

And someone requesting some thing does not *require *me to supply it, does it?

 

[lelhajj]

i read the law, eventhough i am not very familiar with legal terminology.
I want to know, why, they stopped a trucker and asked for his id’s, he showed them his driver’s license and that was not sufficient evidence for the police, that they even requested his birth certificate. I am not sure that the trucker has commited commited anything wrong in the first place.
Also why did they raid Mac Donalds and took people to the police station, even a citizen worker was taken out of her work and were asked for her id’s. just because they thought she might be illegal?
I could have been sitting down eating hamburgers also and i might have been taken also to the police station just because i was there where the raid took place and i look hispanic.
If one of my children, who do not know how to drive a car and obviously do not have a driver’s license were working in Mac Donalds then, they would have taken him also for questioning. Why would he had to be taken out from his work and go and suffer the embarassment of being taken to the police and treated like an illegal?
I think there are some other examples that might arise as well that i can not think of, right now.
What about if i am just passing by and there is a group of drunk people or drug addicts who are making trouble, am i going to be taken to police just because i was around there at the same time and i look “suspicious”.
This law has not been in effect yet, and i certainly believe, listening to those cases that police are going overboard.

 

[lelhajj]

In both these responses, you are saying that the fault lies with the group which “created a demand,” so to speak. You are saying that the fault lies with the people who wanted drugs, and the fault lies with the government which did not carefully guard its borders.

But someone leaving their keys in the car does not somehow *require *me to steal their car, does it?

And someone requesting some thing does not *require *me to supply it, does it?

i don’t believe i was blaming only the americans, i think i mentioned everyone involved, eventhough the original cause was american drug addicts and colombian smugglers.
I believe we are jumping out and being very aggresive and that is not good.
It does not please me as a catholic to be in a defensive or aggresive manner, on the opposite, it makes me feel guilty that i am not humble.
I came here to have an exchange opinions and to clarify some doubts, not to be verbally abused or treated as an ignorant.
If anybody in this thread felt hurt, i am sorry, i did certainly not mean it.
May God bless you, that is my wish for you.

 

[Ridgerunner]

 Sorry to contradict your statement or opinion, but, i am not an illegal and i am not lawlessness. But i can tell you that you might not be targetted at this law, but, me, as an hispanic i am being targetted as well as my children. If you were in my shoes, you would not think that the law is fair. I don't believe you would like to be stopped, harass, interrogated, everytime you step out of your house. Think about how many times do you have to leave your house a day? 24 X7? What are the repercutions of such harassment? just put yourself in my shoes, you take the car and then they stop you at every corner, every day. what would that do to your personality, how would you feel psychologically? how would you react as a parent? i believe it will drain you down, not only you and it will affect your family as well. Would i perform my job well, after being harass in such a way? could i be a good wife, coworker, etc?    Why me? i would keep asking myself? what did i do wrong?

But see, this is an assumption, isn’t it? You assume you will be harrassed because you are Hispanic. I have no doubt that if that’s what happens in Az, we’ll all know about it, there will be a reaction against it and it will end very quickly.

But there is no particular reason to believe this except that others assume it and say it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ridgerunner,
The people that started the drug trade and the people who asked for the drug are guilty of the problem that the drug traffic has caused. Besides that, mexico is already ruined due to the the early demands of americans addicts. Who demanded the drug first? mexicans or americans? the americans. I can blame americans that they started this problem and on the way they have ruined mexico. I can blame that colombians and americans started the problem and it is also true. I can blame that the mexican politicians are corrupted and that they were even involved in drug trafficking and that is the reason why the present mexican government is also having a big problem trying to get rid of such drug cartels, where so many innocent people are being killed even more than in usa. That people do not count also?

You really can’t put more blame on some 13 year old who is cajoled into “trying” drugs than on the person who makes his living selling pain, degradation and death. Addicts generally do start very young. The ones who sell are called “pushers”, and for very good reason.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I came here to have an exchange opinions not to be verbally abused or treated as an ignorant.

First of all I haven’t seen anyone verbally abuse you and second, it’s not an insult to be called ignorant of something. I’m ignorant of lots of things. It doesn’t mean you are dumb or stupid it just means you don’t have knowledge of a particular subject.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. No police officer can legally stop anyone just because of the color of their skin. Any police officer can stop any of us if they have reasonable suspicion that we either have committed or are about to commit a crime. All the AZ law does is allow an officer who has already legally detained someone to ask for proof that they are in the country legally, proof that they are already required by federal law to carry.

We are all required to carry ID and will be required to present it if we are legally detained by an officer. Why do you feel Hispanics should be exempted from these rules?

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Corki]

It is not very hard to see what this law has caused. I encourage you to take a look at the messages that are been posted in that web page: HATE AGAINST EACH OTHER. CIVIL UNREST. how can i law be correct if this is what it is creating? Even us, catholics, are been unmerciful. Sorry to say that, but, it is a reality. We should not get blind by human written law, we are obliged to preach compassion and love.

The law has not *caused *any hate. If there is hate simmering in Arizona, it is because of frustration by citizens at not being able to protect thier families and property. There is hate because of helplessness when the federal government has done nothing to help. All of this has been going on and escalating for years. The law may have come out of those feelings but it hasn’t caused them - they were already there.

The law by the way, mainly just gives local and state authorities the power to do what the feds have the power to do altready. It makes illegal immigration, which is already a federal crime, a state crime as well.

In answer to the OP, I think Arizona is right to enact stronger protections. I am not sure about the implementation. Even your FB site states the law “***may ***lead to racial profiling.” The law itself does not do that; it’s all in the implementation.

P.S. Stories posted on Facebook are generally not considered credible sources of news.

 

[lelhajj]

First of all I haven’t seen anyone verbally abuse you and second, it’s not an insult to be called ignorant of something. I’m ignorant of lots of things. It doesn’t mean you are dumb or stupid it just means you don’t have knowledge of a particular subject.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. No police officer can legally stop anyone just because of the color of their skin. Any police officer can stop any of us if they have reasonable suspicion that we either have committed or are about to commit a crime. All the AZ law does is allow an officer who has already legally detained someone to ask for proof that they are in the country legally, proof that they are already required by federal law to carry.

We are all required to carry ID and will be required to present it if we are legally detained by an officer. Why do you feel Hispanics should be exempted from these rules?

Yours in Christ
Joe

I never said that hispanics should be exempted from those rules. Never.

 

[lelhajj]

The law has not *caused *any hate. If there is hate simmering in Arizona, it is because of frustration by citizens at not being able to protect thier families and property. There is hate because of helplessness when the federal government has done nothing to help. All of this has been going on and escalating for years. The law may have come out of those feelings but it hasn’t caused them - they were already there.

The law by the way, mainly just gives local and state authorities the power to do what the feds have the power to do altready. It makes illegal immigration, which is already a federal crime, a state crime as well.

In answer to the OP, I think Arizona is right to enact stronger protections. I am not sure about the implementation. Even your FB site states the law “***may ***lead to racial profiling.” The law itself does not do that; it’s all in the implementation.

P.S. Stories posted on Facebook are generally not considered credible sources of news.

The law has certainly promoted hate. Comments on the facebook wall are not something that should just ignore and think that those comments are innocous. These are real people expressing their feelings. They might just write online but there feelings are there and they might expose their resentment at any time in the outside world. We can not say that we write on line we do not feel it, i guess, we are certainly feeling it and expressing what we really feel, unless you are only joking about it.
I wish, everything ends in a good and safe way, but, i have my doubts.
I think we were living so much at peace before this law was approved.
Anyway, i wonder what is going to happen with all the undocumentted people that are in our country. If the government really do not want them and these poor people are being mistreated and demonized, it is better for them to go back to their countries and the problem is solved. But i guess we have that christian feeling that we are not doing what we should be doing and also we are not being fair and kind to the people who once served us in silence for such little pay.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A long time ago I found out, quite by accident, that there are a LOT of Polish illegals in Chicago, as well as a lot of Hispanics. If Illinois had a similar law, law enforcement people would have just as keen an eye for the Poles as they would for the Hispanics. Sure, it would be harder to pick the Poles out of a crowd of whites than it would to pick SOME Hispanics out of a crowd of whites, but it would be easier to pick the Poles out of a workplace where most everyone else was Hispanic. There are other things, including ability to speak English, the way they act, the things they’re doing.

That’s not to mention the illegal Pakistanis in the Midwest, of which an INS agent once told me there are a great number.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I never said that hispanics should be exempted from those rules. Never.

The law says that if an officer legally detains someone on reasonable suspicion that they can ask that person for proof that they are in the country legally. What part of that exactly do you have a problem with?

Here is part of the text.

SB1070, Section 2 article B

FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON’S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)

It is not lawful to detain a person because of the color of their skin. No one will be stopped because they are Hispanic. The plain text of the law makes that perfectly clear.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[St_Francis]

…I think we were living so much at peace before this law was approved.

People in Phoenix are not living in peace. There has been almost a kidnapping a day reported for the past three years there. Many of the victims are tortured. For the police to deal with this crime is very manpower-intensive: it takes 50–60 officers to monitor a ransom drop site.

And most of these kidnappings are perpetrated by people who are here illegally against others who are here illegally. And still the Phoenix police have been doing their best to deal with those incidents which are reported.

Anyway, i wonder what is going to happen with all the undocumentted people that are in our country. If the government really do not want them and these poor people are being mistreated and demonized, it is better for them to go back to their countries and the problem is solved. But i guess we have that christian feeling that we are not doing what we should be doing and also we are not being fair and kind to the people who once served us in silence for such little pay.

The people who entered this country illegally knew what they were doing. Those who “served us in silence” theoretically made more money here than they would have in their home country, otherwise why would they have come?

So, say someone who was here for 10 years made just $3000 more here than he would have at home. Over 10 years, that’s $30,000 more than he would have made there.

So, say someone here was only here for a year. He still made more than he would have.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The people who entered this country illegally knew what they were doing. Those who “served us in silence” theoretically made more money here than they would have in their home country, otherwise why would they have come?

So, say someone who was here for 10 years made just $3000 more here than he would have at home. Over 10 years, that’s $30,000 more than he would have made there.

So, say someone here was only here for a year. He still made more than he would have.

Most of the illegals I know go back home all the time. Most of them are young men who are here to raise money to go back home and live better than their neighbors. And they do that. Lots of them are just raising capital to buy a farm or a store or whatever, back home, and they do a lot of that too. Some of that money they send every week is buying stuff in the home country, and it’s not subsistence. It’s land or a house or whatever. Many remind me of the guys who go to Kuwait or the North Slope or somewhere to make the big bucks so they can come back here and buy a nicer house than they otherwise would.

 

[mlund]

Yeah, the obvious villain isn’t the law of Arizona (which isn’t even in effect yet) but the astonishing level of ignorance and the insidious level of realpolitik that’s being promoted in the local and national media.

1.) SB1070 is not in effect yet

2.) The language of SB1070 was amended by HB2162 that was signed into law 4/30/2010

3.) Hatred is being promoted by the pro-illegal alien exploiters like the racist organization La Raza, race-hustlers like Al Sharpton, and political and business interests that exploit illegal immigrants for their own profit

Let’s face it, the hate is coming from the Left for Arizona having the utter gall to enforce the law within its own borders and make sure that illegal aliens who get picked up by the cops don’t get a free pass to stay in the country anymore just because our Federales and mayors of Sanctuary Cities are as corrupt as they come.

The traditions of looking the other way and the flow of kick-backs to and from the illegal alien industry is about to get tamped down and many people that were profiting at the expense of the citizens and legal immigrants of Arizona are enraged that their illicit ox is about to get gored.

Short list of illicit prominent kick-back recipients of the top of my head:

• Illegal aliens
• La Raza
• SEIU
• AZ Democratic Party
• Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon
• Pinal County
• Mexico
• Major AZ Business Franchise Holders
• AZ Local Entertainment Industries
• AZ Catholic Parishes and Dioceses

Not everyone on that list is protesting the enforcement, and not all those that are protesting are doing it for the kick-backs. I’ll just point out that all those groups stand to suffer substantial material losses if illegal aliens are turned out of Arizona and Federal Immigration Law is no longer flouted in a lawless fashion.

• Marty Lund

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yeah, the obvious villain isn’t the law of Arizona (which isn’t even in effect yet) but the astonishing level of ignorance and the insidious level of realpolitik that’s being promoted in the local and national media.

1.) SB1070 is not in effect yet

2.) The language of SB1070 was amended by HB2162 that was signed into law 4/30/2010

3.) Hatred is being promoted by the pro-illegal alien exploiters like the racist organization La Raza, race-hustlers like Al Sharpton, and political and business interests that exploit illegal immigrants for their own profit

Let’s face it, the hate is coming from the Left for Arizona having the utter gall to enforce the law within its own borders and make sure that illegal aliens who get picked up by the cops don’t get a free pass to stay in the country anymore just because our Federales and mayors of Sanctuary Cities are as corrupt as they come.

The traditions of looking the other way and the flow of kick-backs to and from the illegal alien industry is about to get tamped down and many people that were profiting at the expense of the citizens and legal immigrants of Arizona are enraged that their illicit ox is about to get gored.

Short list of illicit prominent kick-back recipients of the top of my head:

• Illegal aliens
• La Raza
• SEIU
• AZ Democratic Party
• Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon
• Pinal County
• Mexico
• Major AZ Business Franchise Holders
• AZ Local Entertainment Industries
• AZ Catholic Parishes and Dioceses

Not everyone on that list is protesting the enforcement, and not all those that are protesting are doing it for the kick-backs. I’ll just point out that all those groups stand to suffer substantial material losses if illegal aliens are turned out of Arizona and Federal Immigration Law is no longer flouted in a lawless fashion.

• Marty Lund

Al Sharpton is the one who knocks me out. Relations between Blacks and Hispanics in this country from south of the border could hardly be worse than they are. Some of it is about economic opportunity, and some of it is just plain old racial antipathy. Sharpton surely knows that. I don’t see how he could possibly fail to know it. It’s flagrant and open, but it sure is never spoken of by the media and the politicians.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Yeah, the obvious villain isn’t the law of Arizona (which isn’t even in effect yet) but the astonishing level of ignorance and the insidious level of realpolitik that’s being promoted in the local and national media.

1.) SB1070 is not in effect yet

2.) The language of SB1070 was amended by HB2162 that was signed into law 4/30/2010

3.) Hatred is being promoted by the pro-illegal alien exploiters like the racist organization La Raza, race-hustlers like Al Sharpton, and political and business interests that exploit illegal immigrants for their own profit

Let’s face it, the hate is coming from the Left for Arizona having the utter gall to enforce the law within its own borders and make sure that illegal aliens who get picked up by the cops don’t get a free pass to stay in the country anymore just because our Federales and mayors of Sanctuary Cities are as corrupt as they come.

The traditions of looking the other way and the flow of kick-backs to and from the illegal alien industry is about to get tamped down and many people that were profiting at the expense of the citizens and legal immigrants of Arizona are enraged that their illicit ox is about to get gored.

Short list of illicit prominent kick-back recipients of the top of my head:

• Illegal aliens
• La Raza
• SEIU
• AZ Democratic Party
• Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon
• Pinal County
• Mexico
• Major AZ Business Franchise Holders
• AZ Local Entertainment Industries
• AZ Catholic Parishes and Dioceses

Not everyone on that list is protesting the enforcement, and not all those that are protesting are doing it for the kick-backs. I’ll just point out that all those groups stand to suffer substantial material losses if illegal aliens are turned out of Arizona and Federal Immigration Law is no longer flouted in a lawless fashion.

• Marty Lund

You forgot LULAC. They are asking Houstonians to boycott the Diamondback game tonight.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

You forgot LULAC. They are asking Houstonians to boycott the Diamondback game tonight.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, add the USCCB

 

[JReducation]

I just arrive at this soiree. I thought that the Governor of AZ had addressed the concerns of the bishops by changing some of the wording in the law. If that’s the case, there is nothing further to discuss. The bishops were not opposed to the idea of the law, but to certain points in the law and they singled these out to the Governor. But I read that the Governor had edited the law to address these concerns. Am I wrong?

There are several criteria that Catholics must use to judge a law.

1. No civil law can violate a moral law.
2. Some civil laws do not violate a moral law, but they violate one or more moral principles. Moral principles are rules that are mean to keep us on the moral path. They are not moral laws in themselves. They’re like good driving practices. They’re not traffic laws. But if you follow them, you’re chances of breaking a traffic law or hurting someone is significantly reduced.
3. Civil laws must target an evil, not a group of people.
4. Every nation has the right to protect all those who find themselves within its borders, citizens, residents, guests and others.
5. Crime and sin are not the same things. Something may be a crime, because it’s illegal. That does not make it a sin. Just as something that is legal can be a sin. In some countries it’s a crime to convert to Christianity. In the USA abortion is legal.
6. The state has a God-given mandate to govern. However, the Church has spelled out the state must govern justly. If the state governs unjustly, the state should be disobeyed. This was the case with the Founding Fathers of this country.
7. Not every moral statement needs to come from the pope. Bishops have the authority to make moral statements. The Church gives bishops the authority to intervene in political affairs for several reasons: 1) as citizens or residents in a nation, they have a right to speak; 2) it is the role of the bishop to challenge the public arena to think things through very carefully; and 3) the bishops are the successors of the Apostles. As the Apostles of today, they have a right to speak authoritatively as long as they do not contradict Church teaching or the Holy Father’s wishes. The Church gives them this right. The Church believes that this right comes from Jesus Christ himself, because bishops have the fullness of the priesthood. The fullness of the priesthood requires them to look at man holistically, not just spiritually. Christ is interested in every part of our lives, not just our souls. Good examples of this are the healing miracles. Jesus heals, not because it’s a spiritual thing to do, but because he embraces the whole man.
8. Human life is sacred from conception to natural death. Therefore any act against any human being who is vulnerable violates the Gospel of Life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[St_Francis]

I just arrive at this soiree…
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks, Brother JR, for clarifying some of the issues, and especially the part about the bishops’ pointing out the problems with the law and the response on the part of the AZ lawmakers. My understanding is that the clarifications to the law were indeed made.

 

[Redtown]

Illegal immigration is not a “civil right” – it’s TRESPASSING – the same as if people broke into your home through the back door.

Imagine some uninvited crashers taking up residence in your living room. When you tell them to leave, they call you ‘racist’, and the police refuse to enforce the no-trespassing laws.

These crashers also expect you to pay for their expenses, education, and medical care, and they plan to bring their extended families to join them in your home.

Illegal immigrants have no more right to be in this country than anyone has to break into your home. We have the right to decide whom to invite into our homes and into our country.

Selective immigration by invitation, yes. Unlimited open borders, no.

---

Aren’t today’s immigrants only seeking the same opportunities that our immigrant-grandparents sought?

Our (legal) immigrant-grandparents arrived when the country needed settlers and workers, not during times of 10-20% un/under-employment.

**It is no longer physically or economically possible for America to be the world’s homeless shelter, as this video graphically illustrates : **video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069#

What should be the charitable Christian response to the poor at America’s door?

The Catholic bishops support de facto open borders, but this is an unsustainable and suicidal policy. Their support for open borders stems from feelings more than reason, and amounts to so much sloppy agape – sloppy compassion.

The effective Christian response to the world’s poor is sustainable economic development and democratization within poor countries themselves.

For example, the US can help rebuild Haiti from the ground-up without opening our borders to all 9 million Haitians. Indeed, open borders is a cop-out: the US should pressure Third World governments to equitably develop their own economies.

Lazarus’ large family is at my door, but I simply lack the physical and financial means to let them live in my own home and pay their expenses. However, I am morally obliged to help this family build their own home and livlihood in their own country.