Is Atheism Positive?

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Peace be with you Brother/sister.

Personally, I love Atheists.

Why? For whatever disaster that befalls them they will NEVER blame God. šŸ˜ƒ

Dominus vobiscum.
 
Can atheists blame anyone or anything? The universe just is as it is and we are just as we are! If only matter exists nothing mattersā€¦
And once again we see some tired accusation based on nothing more than personal bias fired at atheism. How does the assumed non-existence of God mean nothing matters?

Do you really believe I cannot impose a set of philosophical, moral and ethical values and judgments to entities because I lack belief in God? Do you imagine that the only thing that holds anyone back from being a nihilistic sociopath is belief in a deity?

Tell me, do you think I am any more a threat to you than someone who believes in one or more gods?
 
A guy takes a gun and kills innocent men, women and children. The validity of your opinion on whether he did wrong or not seems to depend on whether you follow a particular belief system. How bizarre.

And how awkward if he turns out to be a Christian (cue no-true-Scotsman fallacy).
 
Can atheists blame anyone or anything? The universe just is as it is and we are just as we are! If only matter exists nothing mattersā€¦
Ad hominem!
How does the assumed non-existence of God mean nothing matters?
Do you really believe I cannot impose a set of philosophical, moral and ethical values and judgments to entities because I lack belief in God? Do you imagine that the only thing that holds anyone back from being a nihilistic sociopath is belief in a deity?
ā€œimposeā€ is the key word. It implies an arbitrary interpretation of reality.
Tell me, do you think I am any more a threat to you than someone who believes in one or more gods?
Not at all. Fortunately most atheists are inconsistent. Unlike Camus and Sartre they donā€™t take their belief in a Godless universe to its logical conclusion but even they became humanists because they realised reductivism is an untenable conclusion. Garbage!
 
A guy takes a gun and kills innocent men, women and children. The validity of your opinion on whether he did wrong or not seems to depend on whether you follow a particular belief system. How bizarre.

And how awkward if he turns out to be a Christian (cue no-true-Scotsman fallacy).
Not bizarre at all; thatā€™s the way the world works. ref.: news, history.
Your impression reflects an atheistic view, that people and societies are as deep as goodness runs, that being decided by the individual, what is determined to be good is based on power.
In searching for the truth of what is truly right and wrong, one discovers love - God. Try it.
 
Not at all. Fortunately most atheists are inconsistent. Unlike Camus and Sartre they donā€™t take their belief in a Godless universe to its logical conclusion but even they became humanists because they realised reductivism is an untenable conclusion. Garbage!
Theists keep asserting that someone who does not believe in a god is somehow naturally prone to becoming an inhuman sociopath, or even psychopath. This is a view, by and large, based on the view in many Judaeo-Christian traditions that we live in a fallen world, where humansā€™ basic impulse is to be selfish and destructive.

Since I donā€™t accept the ā€œFallā€, but rather assert that humans, like all social animals, create rules of conduct (morals and ethics if you will) as part of their very nature, there is no need for supreme lawgivers. Itā€™s in our DNA to cooperate.

And we are hardly the only animals that do this. Dogs and apes require nothing more than their essential and instinctual nature as social organisms to use, to some extent unconsciously, rules of conduct to assure the survival of the pack or tribe. In fact, Iā€™d say a good deal of what makes humans get along with each other is instinctual and unconscious; we pick up sensory queues from other members of our species, we naturally fall into dominance hierarchies, and so forth.

If you really observe the so-called ā€œatheistā€ states, you will find that for the most part those societies function like other human societies. It strikes me that theists who try to attack atheists by claiming we are all closet Pol Pots miss a few critical facts.

First of all, those who achieve positions of power in any kind of society are often not terribly representative of their populaces. They have certain traits, quite often some degree of sociopathic and narcissistic tendencies, which, sadly, your average human being responds to by submitting themselves. Even democracies are filled with people of power, whether they espouse a particular religious belief or none at all, who seem both able to impose their will on those they rule. Letā€™s face it, people like strong leaders, and strong leaders tend to be pretty darned amoral people.

Second of all, thereā€™s little evidence that belief in God makes people better. Whatever Hitlerā€™s religious beliefs, the fact is that the large majority of the membership of the Nazi Party were not atheists, but were Lutherans and Catholics. Germany was and still is a strongly Christian nation. Once people, whatever their religious beliefs, surrender themselves to a strong leader and a strong ideological principle, they are capable of astonishingly vile acts. God, I am afraid, is no guarantor of moral conduct, even if he is, as so many here claim, He is the font of moral law.

Another observation I have about religion as a tool to unite, channel and control is the fact that the atheist states of the 20th century quickly produced their own quasi-religions; cults of personality. Look at how the Soviet propaganda described Lenin and Stalin, and in particular Stalin. He was portrayed as a superman, the rightful leader because he possessed some fantastical level of wisdom, knowledge and moral strength. The Soviet propagandists made him into what I would consider to be a Pharaoh; a demi-god possessed of powers far beyond that of a normal man.

The same applies to Hitler, to Mao, to Pol Pot, and the Kims in North Korea. All of those regimes had propagandists who understood the societies which they ruled, and also keenly understood that humans powerfully respond to certain archetypes. Maoā€™s swimming across the Yangzi is a powerful example. Here is an aging man who had largely been sidelined after calamitous decisions that had costs tens of millions of lives, and he regained the initiative by an act that made him out to be a Nietzschian Ɯbermensch. The ancient archetype of the King, blessed with strength beyond those of mortal man, which both religious and a-religious states had invoked since time immemorial, proved even in the 20th century so powerful as to allow Mao to cast aside his rivals, spur on the Cultural Revolution, and seize power in China for a second time.

The long and the short, from my point of view, and looking at the myriad atrocities large and small committed by human beings since the beginning of recorded history, is that belief in God or gods does little if anything to make people act better. The first genocide of the 20th century was conducted by a Muslim state where the ruler was also at least nominally the religious leader of his people.
 
Theists keep asserting that someone who does not believe in a god is somehow naturally prone to becoming an inhuman sociopath, or even psychopath. This is a view, by and large, based on the view in many Judaeo-Christian traditions that we live in a fallen world, where humansā€™ basic impulse is to be selfish and destructive. Since I donā€™t accept the ā€œFallā€, but rather assert that humans, like all social animals, create rules of conduct (morals and ethics if you will) as part of their very nature, there is no need for supreme lawgivers. Itā€™s in our DNA to cooperate. . . . All of those regimes had propagandists who understood the societies which they ruled, and also keenly understood that humans powerfully respond to certain archetypes. Maoā€™s swimming across the Yangzi is a powerful example. Here is an aging man who had largely been sidelined after calamitous decisions that had costs tens of millions of lives, and he regained the initiative by an act that made him out to be a Nietzschian Ɯbermensch. The ancient archetype of the King, blessed with strength beyond those of mortal man, which both religious and a-religious states had invoked since time immemorial, proved even in the 20th century so powerful as to allow Mao to cast aside his rivals, spur on the Cultural Revolution, and seize power in China for a second time.The long and the short, from my point of view, and looking at the myriad atrocities large and small committed by human beings since the beginning of recorded history, is that belief in God or gods does little if anything to make people act better. The first genocide of the 20th century was conducted by a Muslim state where the ruler was also at least nominally the religious leader of his people.
If I may summarize what I get from your post:
We are animals, playing out our instinctual tendencies.
On the one hand they cause us to work together and cooperate.
Related to this is that which seeks the survival and ascendency of oneā€™s own group; intrinsic to all is their tendency to grow in urgency if left unsatisfied.
What this ultimately boils down to is the quest for power either directly or through submission to a strong leader or group.
Your position is that the horrific state of the world is not the outcome of our having fallen from a state of grace (which would involve the recognition of universal brotherhood, equality, true freedom and the supremacy of love) to which we can return.
Love is an instinct that brings us together and not an act of free will whereby we give ourselves not only to each other, but to God, the Font of all creation, Beauty, Truth and Life itself.
So, religionā€™s promise to help us return to that state would amount to nothing but a false hope luring the innocent. Whatever the ideal that brings people together, individually and as a group, we would always be true to our nature as revealed in history and the daily news.

I donā€™t think that someone who says they do not believe in God is prone to sociopathy and psychopathy.
I think you do, although you do not discriminate between the irreligious and the religious.
I would understand the use of the terms sociopathy and psychopathology as being related to the idea of man as animal, governed by his instincts. Some of us do not apparently have the right DNA for polite society.

I prefer the word evil. And yeah, I would say atheists are more vulnerable to evil influences. However, at the same time I acknowledge the shrewdness of evil in hiding where it may be least expected
 
If I may summarize what I get from your post:
We are animals, playing out our instinctual tendencies.
On the one hand they cause us to work together and cooperate.
Related to this is that which seeks the survival and ascendency of oneā€™s own group; intrinsic to all is their tendency to grow in urgency if left unsatisfied.
What this ultimately boils down to is the quest for power either directly or through submission to a strong leader or group.
First of all, all Iā€™m saying is that the instinct to abide by rules of conduct is present. What those rules of conduct may be are quite another thing. And yes, humans like most, if not all social animals, tend to form dominance hierarchies. But how those hierarchies are formed and how they are defined is a different thing. In more egalitarian societies, like, say, the United States or the ancient Athenian Republic, leaders were afforded great respect, but were not permitted to wield dictatorial powers. Those that built those political systems recognized that absolute power corrupted the ones that held it, and lead to despotism.

In other words, the instinct to form social groups is not an absolute barrier to more egalitarian orderings of societies being produced. It simply means that evolutionary forces tend to favor a top down approach to the running of society.
Your position is that the horrific state of the world is not the outcome of our having fallen from a state of grace (which would involve the recognition of universal brotherhood, equality, true freedom and the supremacy of love) to which we can return.
I think one can recognize the common interests and even the brotherhood of humanity without requiring some supreme being to have asserted it.
Love is an instinct that brings us together and not an act of free will whereby we give ourselves not only to each other, but to God, the Font of all creation, Beauty, Truth and Life itself.
I am capable of love without recognizing a supreme being.
So, religionā€™s promise to help us return to that state would amount to nothing but a false hope luring the innocent.
Whatever the ideal that brings people together, individually and as a group, we would always be true to our nature as revealed in history and the daily news.
I would not phrase it quite so harshly, and I wouldnā€™t say that even though it is false, that it holds no value. I do not adhere to the notion that religious beliefs hold no value, even if they are ultimately created by humans. They can be an enormous force for uniting people and forging common cause.

By the same token, they can be forged into something capable of far darker purpose as well. Religion, like all human constructs, is a tool that can be used for good or evil.
I donā€™t think that someone who says they do not believe in God is prone to sociopathy and psychopathy.
I think you do, although you do not discriminate between the irreligious and the religious.
I would understand the use of the terms sociopathy and psychopathology as being related to the idea of man as animal, governed by his instincts. Some of us do not apparently have the right DNA for polite society.
Sadly true, though oddly enough, in some occupations a sociopath may actual have the edge. I have been told that among skilled surgeons there are a higher number of sociopaths overall, because the lack of compassion and the narcissism can play to a surgeonā€™s benefit. So even people who may be more prone to antisocial acts can actually make positive contributions.
I prefer the word evil. And yeah, I would say atheists are more vulnerable to evil influences. However, at the same time I acknowledge the shrewdness of evil in hiding where it may be least expected
Is there some way I can read this that doesnā€™t come out sounding like you prejudiced against me, based solely on the fact that I lack belief in God?
 
Second of all, thereā€™s little evidence that belief in God makes people better. Whatever Hitlerā€™s religious beliefs, the fact is that the large majority of the membership of the Nazi Party were not atheists, but were Lutherans and Catholics. Germany was and still is a strongly Christian nation. Once people, whatever their religious beliefs, surrender themselves to a strong leader and a strong ideological principle, they are capable of astonishingly vile acts. God, I am afraid, is no guarantor of moral conduct, even if he is, as so many here claim, He is the font of moral law.
The majority of Germans were not Nazis but had to conform or else be victimised, imprisoned or executed.
Another observation I have about religion as a tool to unite, channel and control is the fact that the atheist states of the 20th century quickly produced their own quasi-religions; cults of personality. Look at how the Soviet propaganda described Lenin and Stalin, and in particular Stalin. He was portrayed as a superman, the rightful leader because he possessed some fantastical level of wisdom, knowledge and moral strength. The Soviet propagandists made him into what I would consider to be a Pharaoh; a demi-god possessed of powers far beyond that of a normal man.
The same applies to Hitler, to Mao, to Pol Pot, and the Kims in North Korea. All of those regimes had propagandists who understood the societies which they ruled, and also keenly understood that humans powerfully respond to certain archetypes. Maoā€™s swimming across the Yangzi is a powerful example. Here is an aging man who had largely been sidelined after calamitous decisions that had costs tens of millions of lives, and he regained the initiative by an act that made him out to be a Nietzschian Ɯbermensch. The ancient archetype of the King, blessed with strength beyond those of mortal man, which both religious and a-religious states had invoked since time immemorial, proved even in the 20th century so powerful as to allow Mao to cast aside his rivals, spur on the Cultural Revolution, and seize power in China for a second time.
The long and the short, from my point of view, and looking at the myriad atrocities large and small committed by human beings since the beginning of recorded history, is that belief in God or gods does little if anything to make people act better. The first genocide of the 20th century was conducted by a Muslim state where the ruler was also at least nominally the religious leader of his people.
Unlike atheism religion inspired people to establish schools, universities, hospitals, dispensaries, orphanages, hospices, asylums and homes for the elderly.

The persecution, imprisonment, torture and execution of dissidents in states like the USSR and China which were, and some still are are, based on Marxism = dialectical materialism which is hardly a religion in the true sense of the term.
 
The majority of Germans were not Nazis but had to conform or else be victimised, imprisoned or executed.
The majority of Nazis were Christians.
Unlike atheism religion inspired people to establish schools, universities, hospitals, dispensaries, orphanages, hospices, asylums and homes for the elderly.
Because atheists never do anything goodā€¦
The persecution, imprisonment, torture and execution of dissidents in states like the USSR and China which were, and some still are are, based on Marxism = dialectical materialism which is hardly a religion in the true sense of the term.
And, of course, no Christians ever persecuted anyoneā€¦
 
. . . the instinct to abide by rules of conduct is present. . . In other words, the instinct to form social groups is not an absolute barrier to more egalitarian orderings of societies being produced. It simply means that evolutionary forces tend to favor a top down approach to the running of society. . . . I think one can recognize the common interests and even the brotherhood of humanity without requiring some supreme being to have asserted it. . . I am capable of love without recognizing a supreme being. . . I do not adhere to the notion that religious beliefs hold no value, even if they are ultimately created by humans. They can be an enormous force for uniting people and forging common cause. By the same token, they can be forged into something capable of far darker purpose as well. Religion, like all human constructs, is a tool that can be used for good or evil. Sadly true, though oddly enough, in some occupations a sociopath may actual have the edge. . . . So even people who may be more prone to antisocial acts can actually make positive contributions. Is there some way I can read this that doesnā€™t come out sounding like you prejudiced against me, based solely on the fact that I lack belief in God?
You are suggesting that a more egalitarian society is something to be desired. If morality is understood as an instinctual mental phenomenon shaped over eons because the behaviour promotes social interactions that benefit the survival of the group, that is as far as its worth goes. If something works to promote the survival of the species, it is good, instinctually speaking. Male gorillas rape their females and it works well for them. The implication of your view is that a human society could exist where rape becomes the the sole means for procreation, and if everyone is alright with that, then no problem. Affection and moreso love, if they are mere emotional responses, may not be necessary if surivial is the highest good. Given the rise of consumerist society,with its classification of persons as human resources, its focus on pleaure things and fame, the growing threat of pornography, such a future is not impossible among the many dystopias that the media present; I liked the recent Mad Max movie, btw.

You recognize ā€œthe brotherhood of humanityā€ and confess that you are ā€œcapable of love without recognizing a supreme beingā€. For sure, there is no doubt in my mind. This is because love and equality are objectively real. As you are no doubt aware, love is manifested in action, usually in the face of self-sacrifice. It is not merely rosy, nicey snuggles. To me however, there appears to be a contradiction between your professed beliefs and how you live your life.

To me the reality that includes morality, joy, knowledge and wonder is best explained as created by a loving transcendent being who in His being is Beauty, Goodness and Truth itself.

I understand your view, but I believe you do not sufficiently consider the fact that to the religious person, the one who actually believes and practices his religion, it is not an institution created by man. It is the means by which we as individuals and as members of a church come together to worship the Father of creation. The problem is that people following the false gods of their particular social system, will result in the mess that we find in history and in the daily news. Humanity has thrived when it has followed the tenets that emerge from religious teaching, such as the Golden Rule. The further we deviate from these revealed and realized teachings and actions, the darker society becomes.

I wonder whether psychopathy might be seen as a mental illness in societies that value conformity. Psychiatry has shown itself to be surprisingly, to me anyway, influenced by societal norms. I can easily imagine where it could be seen as a positive, and where love equated to masochism, would be considered the disorder. People are shocked when such things happen in their own countries.

Iā€™m not prejudiced against you. I was just giving you the heads up. What keeps this world going is love. And, what brings it to the state itā€™s in, is a lack of love, of giving of oneself. So, if one wants to be happy, one has to give it away.

If one knows love, one is close to God.
 
It seems the issue here is that some are confusing explaining the origins of moral codes with condoning those moral codes. Somebody could acknowledge that morality arose from seemingly uninspired considerations and still cling to their moral code.

That really shouldnā€™t be surprising, as its true of any preference. For example, women are typically attracted to tall men because height was once an advantageous trait. In modern times, oneā€™s height plays little role in their ability to survive, so the tendency to pursue tall men is more of a relic from our past than a sensible mating strategy. Do women change their minds upon learning this? Of course not. A preference doesnā€™t relinquish its hold on you just because you explain its origin. Men similarly prefer women with large breasts for the sake of an infantā€™s feeding, but breast milk isnā€™t necessary nowadays. Again, noting their lack of utility doesnā€™t make me find them any less attractive.

So the moral here is that people donā€™t choose their preferences, thus it makes little sense to rationalize them.
 
It appears that even among atheists there is a Calvinistic streak. We are made this way and we must be true to our nature. Haters gotta hate; losers gotta lose. Randomly bestowed preferences apparently are believed to dictate all.

I donā€™t want to make anyone feel bad here, but if someone claims that the ultimate truth, is that anything goes, even though they donā€™t like it, well, I canā€™t trust that they will have my back when the going gets rough. I would most certainly not marry someone with that attitude. A promise as good as the latest feeling or preference, is not good enough.

Iā€™m not sure why one would not condone certain moral codes if in truth they are just as good as others. Maybe, just maybe, ya think they actually might not be.
 
II donā€™t want to make anyone feel bad here, but if someone claims that the ultimate truth, is that anything goes, even though they donā€™t like it, well, I canā€™t trust that they will have my back when the going gets rough. I would most certainly not marry someone with that attitude. A promise as good as the latest feeling or preference, is not good enough.
Do you actually know anyone like this? Someone who changes their moral position on a whim? I donā€™t think that I would trust such a person either.
 
The majority of Germans were not Nazis but had to conform or else be victimised, imprisoned or executed.
Nominallyā€¦
Unlike atheism religion inspired people to establish schools, universities, hospitals, dispensaries, orphanages, hospices, asylums and homes for the elderly.
Because atheists never do anything goodā€¦

Non sequitur!
The persecution, imprisonment, torture and execution of dissidents in states like the USSR and China which were, and some still are are, based on Marxism = dialectical materialism which is hardly a religion in the true sense of the term.
And, of course, no Christians ever persecuted anyoneā€¦

Yet another non sequitur!
 
Do you actually know anyone like this? Someone who changes their moral position on a whim? I donā€™t think that I would trust such a person either.
They are emotionally unstable. They get themselves into and give others trouble.
They act irrationally at those times, unable to hear the voice of truth.
Itā€™s not in the truth, but the personā€™s will, their choices that we see whims and preference.
That voice, heard through our conscience is personal, known to us in ourselves.
Since it is difficult to discern what is truly good from what is merely a wish, it is important to educate our conscience because life gets pretty complicated.
We lie probably lie more to ourselves than to others.

If we compress time and consider the behavior of nations, what appears is not dissimilar to what I was attempting to describe.
Nations have no conscience other than their legal system, meaning the real one, not just what is on the books.

The bottom line is that the universe is founded on Love.
Christianityā€™s symbol of this transcendent reality is the cross.
All morality arises out of the requirement to love .
Our lives are a journey to that end.

Someone from Australia, of all places, sent me this link - the total awesomeness of the world, and its Foundation: player.vimeo.com/video/41225777
 
Nominallyā€¦
According to the catholic church, once you are baptized, you are a catholic. There is nothing ā€œnominalā€ about it. You cannot get rid of that ā€œinedible*ā€ mark on your ā€œsoulā€, even if you wanted to. So your behavior is inseparable from your Catholicism and it reflects on it. Tough luck, I guess.
  • Typo intended. šŸ™‚
Non sequitur!
Not at all. It simply points out the hypocrisy of the previous poster.
 
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