Is Atheism Positive?

[Bradski]

They are emotionally unstable.

Someone from Australia, of all places, sent me this link - the total awesomeness of the world, and its Foundation: player.vimeo.com/video/41225777

Well yeah. Emotionally unstable is correct. And that condition is not restricted to just those people who are not Christian.

And great link. Wonderful pictures. Stunning. But you realise that if you suggest: ‘Warm wooden mittens and whiskers on kittens - therefore God’ then I get to post links to the polar bear eating a seal alive. Or the killer whales corralling the whale pup away from its mother so they can kill it (apparently they only eat the tongue). But that would spoil everyone’s breakfast, so I shan’t.

But to use another example, there were a couple of pictures in the local paper that someone had taken of some kangaroos. A male and a female with her joey (baby 'roo). Unfortunately, the mother was either dead or close to it and the pictures showed the male seemingly cradling her head and trying to get her to stand up. Everyone went ‘Ahhhh…’. smh.com.au/environment/animals/kangaroo-photos-capture-mourning-in-the-wild-20160113-gm5g11.html

Isn’t the world a wonderful place, we all thought.

But then someone who knew more about 'Roos then your average Joe pointed out that the males arms were slick with saliva. They lick their arms to cool themselves in times of sexual arousal. And if you checked the picture closely, you could tell the the was indeed (ahem) interested.

So the heart warming picture of a grieving male turned out to be a randy 'roo trying to get the female on her feet so he could…well, you get the picture.

All of a sudden, the world was a cruel and nasty place.

Edit: This is in no way meant to be taken as an indication of Australian males’ attitudes to see and women.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

You are suggesting that a more egalitarian society is something to be desired. If morality is understood as an instinctual mental phenomenon shaped over eons because the behaviour promotes social interactions that benefit the survival of the group, that is as far as its worth goes. If something works to promote the survival of the species, it is good, instinctually speaking. Male gorillas rape their females and it works well for them.

Worse is that some will commit infanticide in order to precipitate the female into returning to a state of fertility.

The implication of your view is that a human society could exist where rape becomes the the sole means for procreation, and if everyone is alright with that, then no problem.

…or, perhaps more directly, if those with the greatest power might be capable of sustaining such a system it would be thereby sustained…

Affection and moreso love, if they are mere emotional responses, may not be necessary if surivial is the highest good. Given the rise of consumerist society,with its classification of persons as human resources, its focus on pleaure things and fame, the growing threat of pornography, such a future is not impossible among the many dystopias that the media present; I liked the recent Mad Max movie, btw.

You recognize “the brotherhood of humanity” and confess that you are “capable of love without recognizing a supreme being”. For sure, there is no doubt in my mind. This is because love and equality are objectively real. As you are no doubt aware, love is manifested in action, usually in the face of self-sacrifice. It is not merely rosy, nicey snuggles. To me however, there appears to be a contradiction between your professed beliefs and how you live your life.

To me the reality that includes morality, joy, knowledge and wonder is best explained as created by a loving transcendent being who in His being is Beauty, Goodness and Truth itself.

Or perhaps a willingness to rise above mere animalistic tendencies? Could a rational mind choose to ascribe a greater meaning to baser instincts in order to potentially increase their importance?

I understand your view, but I believe you do not sufficiently consider the fact that to the religious person, the one who actually believes and practices his religion, it is not an institution created by man. It is the means by which we as individuals and as members of a church come together to worship the Father of creation. The problem is that people following the false gods of their particular social system, will result in the mess that we find in history and in the daily news. Humanity has thrived when it has followed the tenets that emerge from religious teaching, such as the Golden Rule. The further we deviate from these revealed and realized teachings and actions, the darker society becomes.

I wonder whether psychopathy might be seen as a mental illness in societies that value conformity. Psychiatry has shown itself to be surprisingly, to me anyway, influenced by societal norms. I can easily imagine where it could be seen as a positive, and where love equated to masochism, would be considered the disorder. People are shocked when such things happen in their own countries.

Agreed…

I’m not prejudiced against you. I was just giving you the heads up. What keeps this world going is love. And, what brings it to the state it’s in, is a lack of love, of giving of oneself. So, if one wants to be happy, one has to give it away.

If one knows love, one is close to God.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

And once again we see some tired accusation based on nothing more than personal bias fired at atheism. How does the assumed non-existence of God mean nothing matters?

Do you really believe I cannot impose a set of philosophical, moral and ethical values and judgments to entities because I lack belief in God? Do you imagine that the only thing that holds anyone back from being a nihilistic sociopath is belief in a deity?

Tell me, do you think I am any more a threat to you than someone who believes in one or more gods?

You are not a threat to anyone in this forum because you do not reason well.

Clearly an atheist can have moral values. The issue is not whether he can have them, but where he gets them from. If not from God, his moral values have to be of human discovery or invention, and that OPENS THE POSSIBIBLITY OF A WHOLE HOST OF EVIL CHOICES THAT CAN BE IMPOSED BY SOME PEOPLE ON OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY RESERVATION.

THE ATHEIST WITH THE BIGGEST CLUB PREVAILS, AS HE DOES TODAY IN NORTH KOREA AND DID BEFORE IN THE SOVIET UNION AND STILL DOES IN CHINA WHERE HUMAN RIGHTS CANNOT PREVAIL BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THEM EXCEPT FOR THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO SMASH HUMAN FREEDOMS GOOD AND HARD.

 

[tonyrey]

You invoke a no true Scotsman fallacy and then complain about alleged non sequiturs.

A fact is not a fallacy. Nazism is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[tonyrey]

You are not a threat to anyone in this forum because you do not reason well.

Clearly an atheist can have moral values. The issue is not whether he can have them, but where he gets them from. If not from God, his moral values have to be of human discovery or invention, and that OPENS THE POSSIBILITY OF A WHOLE HOST OF EVIL CHOICES THAT CAN BE IMPOSED BY SOME PEOPLE ON OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY RESERVATION.

THE ATHEIST WITH THE BIGGEST CLUB PREVAILS, AS HE DOES TODAY IN NORTH KOREA AND DID BEFORE IN THE SOVIET UNION AND STILL DOES IN CHINA WHERE HUMAN RIGHTS CANNOT PREVAIL BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THEM EXCEPT FOR THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO SMASH HUMAN FREEDOMS GOOD AND HARD.

Evidence:

Christians and followers of other religions in China suffered the worst abuses in a decade last year as part of a state-sponsored crackdown on dissent, according to a Christian human rights group.

The organization China Aid said the persecution of religious practitioners and human rights advocates in China increased by more than 150 percent last year.

According to its annual report released on Tuesday, 17,884 individuals were persecuted for their religious beliefs. Authorities detained nearly 3,000 dissidents and sentenced 1,274 people, compared to just 12 in 2013.

President Xi J(name removed by moderator)ing of China, widely viewed as the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) most authoritarian leader since Mao Zedong, has instituted a broad campaign to suppress all forms of dissent. China Aid said Christians are increasingly the target of this repression, as well as Tibetan Buddhists, Uyghur Muslims, and practitioners of the Falun Gong religion.

The report estimates that there are about 70 million Christians in China split between underground house churches and state-sanctioned churches in the “Three-Self Patriotic Movement” (TSPM). And the number of followers is expected to increase. One professor at Purdue University estimates that China could become the largest Christian nation in the world by 2030.

The CCP considers the rising popularity of Christianity as a threat to its dominance, China Aid said, and has used aggressive measures to intimidate members.

“The Chinese government’s persecution campaign included forced demolition of churches and crosses, the detention and imprisonment of pastors and church members on criminal charges, forcing churches into bankruptcy by confiscating church property and imposing fines, and manipulating state-run media to label house churches as ‘cult’ organizations,” the report said.

A local police force—including 600 SWAT officers and government agents—demolished the cross last year at Salvation Church, a Christian house church in the eastern coastal city of Wenzhou. The officers attacked 14 church members on July 21 and seriously injured five, according to the report.

Zhang Shaojie, former pastor at the Nanle County Christian Church in central China, was sentenced to 12 years in jail and fined after being convicted of “gathering a crowd to disrupt public order” and “fraud.” Zhang mobilized his congregation to petition the government in Beijing after local authorities seized property that the church had set aside for a new building. Local officials responded by detaining some church members and barring their travel to Beijing. The Nanle church of more than 1,000 members shut down.

The CCP has also tried to subvert the Christian movement from within through a process of “sinicization” or the promotion of “Christianity with Chinese characteristics.”

The TSPM, along with state religious agencies, has instructed members to attend seminars on sinicization and adopt Chinese cultural traditions into their worship practices. Church leaders are sent to “patriotic education sites” to instill loyalty to the Party.

“The sinicization of Christianity amounts to de-Christianizing the church in China and eradicating the universal nature of Christianity under the appearance of constructing a ‘Christianity with Chinese characteristics,’ and, in the name of prioritizing the interests of the Communist Party, usurping Christian doctrine that ‘Christ is the head of Church,’” the report said.

Human rights lawyers in China have had some success in pushing back against the persecution of Christians. More than 100 Christians have been freed with their assistance or released on probation and are awaiting trial.
freebeacon.com/issues/chinese-persecution-of-christians-reaches-highest-level-in-a-decade/

 

[Jelrak_TB]

You are not a threat to anyone in this forum because you do not reason well.

Careful my good man…one might sense in you some hostility with this…

Clearly an atheist can have moral values. The issue is not whether he can have them, but where he gets them from. If not from God, his moral values have to be of human discovery or invention, and that OPENS THE POSSIBIBLITY OF A WHOLE HOST OF EVIL CHOICES THAT CAN BE IMPOSED BY SOME PEOPLE ON OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY RESERVATION.

THE ATHEIST WITH THE BIGGEST CLUB PREVAILS, AS HE DOES TODAY IN NORTH KOREA AND DID BEFORE IN THE SOVIET UNION AND STILL DOES IN CHINA WHERE HUMAN RIGHTS CANNOT PREVAIL BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT BELIEVE IN THEM EXCEPT FOR THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO SMASH HUMAN FREEDOMS GOOD AND HARD.

This is a fair point…yet seemingly what might equally be seen to be true is the enclave in power appear to have the greatest means of eliminating their philosophical opponents…as not only Militant Islam is showing us today, but also as Constantine and others demonstrated in the past…human nature appears to shine through regardless of system of belief…indeed sometimes it shows more fully through said belief than otherwise…unless the massacring of the Canaanites is to be considered hyperbole…?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Careful my good man…one might sense in you some hostility with this…

This is a fair point…yet seemingly what might equally be seen to be true is the enclave in power appear to have the greatest means of eliminating their philosophical opponents…as not only Militant Islam is showing us today, but also as Constantine and others demonstrated in the past…human nature appears to shine through regardless of system of belief…indeed sometimes it shows more fully through said belief than otherwise…unless the massacring of the Canaanites is to be considered hyperbole…?

Militant Islam is not associated with Christ except in a hostile way.

Militant atheism is also not associated with Christ except in a hostile way.

Militant Christianity is always on the march, but I’m not aware of Christians beheading Muslims.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Evidence:

Christians and followers of other religions in China suffered the worst abuses in a decade last year as part of a state-sponsored crackdown on dissent, according to a Christian human rights group.

The organization China Aid said the persecution of religious practitioners and human rights advocates in China increased by more than 150 percent last year.

According to its annual report released on Tuesday, 17,884 individuals were persecuted for their religious beliefs. Authorities detained nearly 3,000 dissidents and sentenced 1,274 people, compared to just 12 in 2013.

President Xi J(name removed by moderator)ing of China, widely viewed as the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) most authoritarian leader since Mao Zedong, has instituted a broad campaign to suppress all forms of dissent. China Aid said Christians are increasingly the target of this repression, as well as Tibetan Buddhists, Uyghur Muslims, and practitioners of the Falun Gong religion.

The report estimates that there are about 70 million Christians in China split between underground house churches and state-sanctioned churches in the “Three-Self Patriotic Movement” (TSPM). And the number of followers is expected to increase. One professor at Purdue University estimates that China could become the largest Christian nation in the world by 2030.

The CCP considers the rising popularity of Christianity as a threat to its dominance, China Aid said, and has used aggressive measures to intimidate members.

“The Chinese government’s persecution campaign included forced demolition of churches and crosses, the detention and imprisonment of pastors and church members on criminal charges, forcing churches into bankruptcy by confiscating church property and imposing fines, and manipulating state-run media to label house churches as ‘cult’ organizations,” the report said.

A local police force—including 600 SWAT officers and government agents—demolished the cross last year at Salvation Church, a Christian house church in the eastern coastal city of Wenzhou. The officers attacked 14 church members on July 21 and seriously injured five, according to the report.

Zhang Shaojie, former pastor at the Nanle County Christian Church in central China, was sentenced to 12 years in jail and fined after being convicted of “gathering a crowd to disrupt public order” and “fraud.” Zhang mobilized his congregation to petition the government in Beijing after local authorities seized property that the church had set aside for a new building. Local officials responded by detaining some church members and barring their travel to Beijing. The Nanle church of more than 1,000 members shut down.

The CCP has also tried to subvert the Christian movement from within through a process of “sinicization” or the promotion of “Christianity with Chinese characteristics.”

The TSPM, along with state religious agencies, has instructed members to attend seminars on sinicization and adopt Chinese cultural traditions into their worship practices. Church leaders are sent to “patriotic education sites” to instill loyalty to the Party.

“The sinicization of Christianity amounts to de-Christianizing the church in China and eradicating the universal nature of Christianity under the appearance of constructing a ‘Christianity with Chinese characteristics,’ and, in the name of prioritizing the interests of the Communist Party, usurping Christian doctrine that ‘Christ is the head of Church,’” the report said.

Human rights lawyers in China have had some success in pushing back against the persecution of Christians. More than 100 Christians have been freed with their assistance or released on probation and are awaiting trial.freebeacon.com/issues/chinese-persecution-of-christians-reaches-highest-level-in-a-decade/

Interesting analysis. Moreover, we never hear of atheists on trial in China.