Is being anti homosexual anti christian?

[Dale_M]

im saying that homosexuals should be deemed equals with heterosexuals and treated accordingly

Absolutely, and the Church agrees with you.

All people are created in the image and likeness of God and thus possess an innate human dignity that must be acknowledged and respected.1

In keeping with this conviction, the Church teaches that persons with a homosexual inclination “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.”2 We recognize that these persons have been, and often continue to be, objects of scorn, hatred, and even violence in some sectors of our society. Sometimes this hatred is manifested clearly; other times, it is masked and gives rise to more disguised forms of hatred. “It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.”3

Those who would minister in the name of the Church must in no way contribute to such injustice. They should prayerfully examine their own hearts in order to discern any thoughts or feelings that might stand in need of purification. Those who minister are also called to growth in holiness. In fact, the work of spreading the Good News involves an ever-increasing love for those to whom one is ministering by calling them to the truth of Jesus Christ.4

Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination

 

[goofyjim]

I think it must be reiterated that being opposed to homosexual acts is not anti christian. OTOH, being opposed to homosexuals as people is. If one never acts on it yet still selfidentifies as homosexual there is no harm done and there should be no persecution of that.

 

[PauloFreire2]

Yeah…the allegation that homosexuals are latent pedophiles is insane, and purely hateful. It’s based on biggotry and/or ignorance.

 

[goofyjim]

Yeah…the allegation that homosexuals are latent pedophiles is insane, and purely hateful. It’s based on biggotry and/or ignorance.

Was that serious agreement or a mockery of what I stated.

 

[blessedtoo]

how can homosexuality be a sin when the essence of that orientation can embrace the fruit of the spirit …love, joy, peace,goodness,kindness, self-control,patience,gentleness,and faithfulness.** homosexuals have not been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals including the military or the institution of marriage**.

The “essence” of the orientation is disordered although homosexual people themsevles can and do have all the attributes you mentioned. They, and their “unions” are lacking in the ability to procreate, which is, after all, the natural biological imperative of human sexuality.

how can same sex attraction being equal in spirit to that heterosexual attraction be deemed a sin?

It is not equal in “spirit” (whatever that means) to heterosexual attraction. It is a consequence of our disordered human nature, from which we all suffer in some capacity.

john 4 says that the true worshippers will worship the father in spirit and in truth. if the spirit of homosexual couplimg mimics the the spirit of heterosexal coupling, embracing all the things of the fruit of the spirit how can it be deemed less.

I don’t know how you drew that conclusion from John4, but homosexual couplings do not mimic heterosexual union. The latter works in conjunction with biology and God’s plan to unify and procreate. The former mocks both biology and procreation.

surely there were prohibitions given in leviticus that of themselves were not sins…eating anything that did not have cloved hoof.

Levitical laws regarding temple ritual and priestly rites were fulfilled and hence discarded with the death and resurrection of Christ. The laws prohibiting sexual immorality were sustained and reiterated in the NT.

and the people of sodom were guilty of attempted gang rape of someone who had been received in a household as a guest.

This link may help clarify your confusion on Scriptural teaching regarding homosexuality.

The argument is partially true; the men of Sodom certainly were proposing rape. But for such an event to include “all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old,” homosexuality must have been commonly practiced. Mollenkott makes a persuasive case for the event being much like a prison rape, or the kind of assaults conquering armies would commit against vanquished enemies,(53) but her argument is weakened by Professor Thomas Schmidt’s cited evidence in early literature connecting Sodom with more general homosexual practices:The second-century BC Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs labels the Sodomites ‘sexually promiscuous’ (Testimony of Benjamin 9:1) and refers to ‘Sodom, which departed from the order of nature’ (Testament of Nephtali 3:4). From the same time period, Jubilees specifies that the Sodomites were ‘polluting themselves and fornicating in their flesh’ (16:5, compare 20:5-6). Both Philo and Josephus plainly name same-sex relations as the characteristic view of Sodom.(54)stonewallrevisited.com/issues/theo.html#script2

continued…

 

[blessedtoo]

no where in secular society or even in the church have homosexuals been identified as the shame based lusters described in romans.

One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year. The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.
Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.

and in the epistles is the original translation(king james)“nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind” an inditement against homosexuality, when we are also aware there is abuse with heterosexual pardners given the spirit of their coupling.

From the link I provided before:

Paul is not speaking nearly so subjectively in this passage. There is nothing in his wording to suggest he even recognized such a thing as a “true” homosexual versus a “false” one. He simply describes homosexual behavior as unnatural, no matter who it is committed by. His wording, in fact, is unusually specific. When he refers to “men” and “women” in these verses, he chooses the Greek words that most emphasize biology: arsenes and theleias. Both words are rarely used in the New Testament. When they do appear, they appear in verses meant to emphasize the gender of the subject, as in a male child (arsenes). In this context, Paul is very pointedly saying the homosexual behavior committed by these people was unnatural to them as males and females (arsenes and theleias ). He is not considering any such thing as sexual orientation. He is saying, in other words, that homosexuality is biologically unnatural–not just unnatural to heterosexuals, but unnatural to* anyone*.

Yes, we are aware of the abuses within heterosexual couplings and they are clearly denounced and prohibited in Scripture and Tradition.

 

[goofyjim]

One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year. The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.
Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.

From the link I provided before:

Yes, we are aware of the abuses within heterosexual couplings and they are clearly denounced and prohibited in Scripture and Tradition.

Personally, I believe there is an untold number of homosexuals who just never come out to anyone and live a single celibate life while still acknowledging to themselves that they are homosexual.

 

[thistle]

how can homosexuality be a sin when the essence of that orientation can embrace the fruit of the spirit …love, joy, peace,goodness,kindness, self-control,patience,gentleness,and faithfulness. homosexuals have not been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals including the military or the institution of marriage.

how can same sex attraction being equal in spirit to that heterosexual attraction be deemed a sin?

john 4 says that the true worshippers will worship the father in spirit and in truth. if the spirit of homosexual couplimg mimics the the spirit of heterosexal coupling, embracing all the things of the fruit of the spirit how can it be deemed less.

surely there were prohibitions given in leviticus that of themselves were not sins…eating anything that did not have cloved hoof.

and the people of sodom were guilty of attempted gang rape of someone who had been received in a household as a guest.

no where in secular society or even in the church have homosexuals been identified as the shame based lusters described in romans.

and in the epistles is the original translation(king james)“nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind” an inditement against homosexuality, when we are also aware there is abuse with heterosexual pardners given the spirit of their coupling.

lastly…1john1 gives an example of how we are to have valid witness(1) we hear (2)we touch(physically emotionally and spiritually)(3)we see(with our heats)(4)and our t witness is done in fellowship with one another in walking in the light of christ.

anything less is not a true witness and invites the possibility of false witness.

If you are a Christian then you would know its a grave sin. It is clearly spelled out in the bible in terms which are in no way ambiguous.

Romans 1:27 and 32
“and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.”

“Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”

1 Cor 6:9
“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites”

1 Tim 1:9-10
“We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,
with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,”

 

[Polaris]

One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year. The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.
Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.

From the link I provided before:

Yes, we are aware of the abuses within heterosexual couplings and they are clearly denounced and prohibited in Scripture and Tradition.

Never trust statistics. First ask who they are talking to. They are talking to small subset of the homosexual group. The ones who are usually militant and somewhat liberal. The conservative ones who pair for life, have low numbers of boyfriends are not usually sampled because they do not want to draw attention to themselves and definately do not want to be “Saved” at the end of a baseball bat as on my friends have said in the past. The fact that I know three couples like that, I find it odd that a person living in a medium sized city, in the bible belt no less would find three such couples, If it wasnt more common then statatistics would have you believe.

You can also think of it this way, I go to a swingers bar and ask them how many partners they have had and then make the generalization that all heterosexuals have that many partners. Will that be accurate?

Also Im not sure about how accurate your statistics are about the heterosexual since the avg number of partners for an 18 year old boy is now 6-8.

 

[Sonic]

how can homosexuality be a sin…

feetxxxl, try this website. The members of Courage have posted information pertaining to your questions. I would even suggest contacting them.

couragerc.net/

 

[blessedtoo]

Never trust statistics.

OK. Do your own study. I have. I can assure you the stats are not far off the mark.

They are talking to small subset of the homosexual group.

How did you draw that conclusion? What “subset”? The study says the “average” homosexual man has had that many partners compared to the “average” heterosexual man. No mention of subsets. My experience after working with many homosexual men and women for years is that numerous partners (and for men, often numerous anonymous partners) is the norm.

The ones who are usually militant and somewhat liberal.

I don’t know what you mean by “militant” but I think most homosexual men who are actively living this lifestyle are “liberal”. Can’t really see any of the homosexuals I’ve known voting Republican!

I find it odd that a person living in a medium sized city, in the bible belt no less would find three such couples, If it wasnt more common then statatistics would have you believe.

As I’ve said before, unless you have a very open relationship with these couples and know the nature of their partnerships, you can’t know for sure how they define their coupling. All of the “couples” that I have know who have been in long term relationships still carry on outside sexual activities, often with their partner’s knowledge. Monogamy is not something the homosexual community favors.

You can also think of it this way, I go to a swingers bar and ask them how many partners they have had and then make the generalization that all heterosexuals have that many partners. Will that be accurate?

Did you see the footnote I posted for the study? It was hardly done in a “swingers bar”. You are assuming the stats were collected from some fringe element of the homosexual community. That is not the case.

Also Im not sure about how accurate your statistics are about the heterosexual since the avg number of partners for an 18 year old boy is now 6-8.

Where did your statistic come from?

 

[goofyjim]

OK. Do your own study. I have. I can assure you the stats are not far off the mark.

How did you draw that conclusion? What “subset”? The study says the “average” homosexual man has had that many partners compared to the “average” heterosexual man. No mention of subsets. My experience after working with many homosexual men and women for years is that numerous partners (and for men, often numerous anonymous partners) is the norm.

I don’t know what you mean by “militant” but I think most homosexual men who are actively living this lifestyle are “liberal”. Can’t really see any of the homosexuals I’ve known voting Republican!

As I’ve said before, unless you have a very open relationship with these couples and know the nature of their partnerships, you can’t know for sure how they define their coupling. All of the “couples” that I have know who have been in long term relationships still carry on outside sexual activities, often with their partner’s knowledge. Monogamy is not something the homosexual community favors.

Did you see the footnote I posted for the study? It was hardly done in a “swingers bar”. You are assuming the stats were collected from some fringe element of the homosexual community. That is not the case.

Where did your statistic come from?

blessedtoo,

You seemed to have missed my post which I think even Fr. Groeschel would agree with. Many, if not most, homosexuals just live a quiet single life so it is a distortion of statistics to say that the average homosexual has so many partners. We should word it that the average sexually active homosexual does.

 

[Maxply]

Frankly I’m getting soooo tired of hearing homosexual whinings!

I’m also very turned off by the heavy-handed homosexual propaganda that keeps getting dished out at us by the media, etc. It’s tiresome. It’s malarky.

More than that, the average guy on the street is noticing that it really IS propaganda! I suppose this is a good thing, since it lets us see the falsehoods being issued, by a large and well-funded network of pro-homosexual nonprofit organizations.

Homosexuality is a complex personality disorder, with genetics explaining as much as 50% of the phenomenon. There is a great narcissism and immaturity in homosexuals I’ve met, and perhaps the phenomenon itself, practiced over time, develops additional personality quirks.

Read Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth; a great look at the suppressed truth about the disorder.

Also, Goofy Jim; surely one can be celibate one’s whole life. Such a person would likely not concentrate much on sexual behavior or desires. Personally, Mr. Jim, I’m rationalist enough to believe that human beings are not slaves to their passions but have the courage and emotional wherewithal to control their passions. Otherwise, we’re just cows.

PS:
Also, feeetxxl. . . what’s your personal grudge against capital letters? I find it makes reading sentences easier. They are a valuable bit of the grammatical terrain.

 

[goofyjim]

Frankly I’m getting soooo tired of hearing homosexual whinings!

I’m also very turned off by the heavy-handed homosexual propaganda that keeps getting dished out at us by the media, etc. It’s tiresome. It’s malarky.

More than that, the average guy on the street is noticing that it really IS propaganda! I suppose this is a good thing, since it lets us see the falsehoods being issued, by a large and well-funded network of pro-homosexual nonprofit organizations.

Homosexuality is a complex personality disorder, with genetics explaining as much as 50% of the phenomenon. There is a great narcissism and immaturity in homosexuals I’ve met, and perhaps the phenomenon itself, practiced over time, develops additional personality quirks.

Read Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth; a great look at the suppressed truth about the disorder.

Also, Goofy Jim; surely one can be celibate one’s whole life. Such a person would likely not concentrate much on sexual behavior or desires. Personally, Mr. Jim, I’m rationalist enough to believe that human beings are not slaves to their passions but have the courage and emotional wherewithal to control their passions. Otherwise, we’re just cows.

PS:
Also, feeetxxl. . . what’s your personal grudge against capital letters? I find it makes reading sentences easier. They are a valuable bit of the grammatical terrain.

Thank you for the narcissim and immaturity comments but that turns into hatred of the homosexuals as a person. It is not something that needs to be treated.

 

[goofyjim]

I think my previous post may have come off wrong. Hatred of homosexuals as people does need to be treated. Homosexuality as a disorder, if one is living celibately, does not. And they are not narcissistic and immature as a whole. Again, read my posts. If most are living celibate lives while still experienceing the desires, they may be more mature than many others out there.

 

[blessedtoo]

I think my previous post may have come off wrong. Hatred of homosexuals as people does need to be treated. Homosexuality as a disorder, if one is living celibately, does not. And they are not narcissistic and immature as a whole. Again, read my posts. If most are living celibate lives while still experienceing the desires, they may be more mature than many others out there.

With respect dear brother, I think you may be a bit naive. I understand your personal walk with Christ and admire your determination, but you and your experience is NOT representative of the “average” homosexual. “Most” are definately not living celibate lives and “most” do have numerous sexual partners. I am not making this up - the statistics are there. I can drag out personal experiences and so can you, but the facts don’t lie.

It is not your responsibility to deflect critical observations of the entire homosexual community in order to the prove the point that you are not in that camp.

 

[Maxply]

The militant pro-homosexual stuff is a real turn-off, just like the extreme right-wingers’ jawings about taxes.

It is clear that there is a highly cooperating network of homosexual and pro-homosexual (and homosexual sympathetic) nonprofit organizations. Many of these organizations really came into existence, and began cooperating on policy subjects, in response to the AIDS scare of the late 80s. They are still in existence today promoting a set of homosexual policy measures.

(Maybe someone knows better than me, but surprisingly there still is a significant amount risky sex in that particular “community”–some recent study noted that anti-AIDS educative efforts haven’t succeeded).

Finding resistance, in the past two years, to the notion of homosexual marriage, there is an effort to re-paint Christianity itself, to form pro-homosexual “tolerance” groups on campuses and in schools, that are ostensibly faith-based. . . in an effort to whitewash Biblical injunctions against homosexual practices.

Being anti-homosexual would to my mind, mean a person is against a specific person. One should love the person, and hate the sin. So it is morally acceptable to be anti-homosexual-behavior. Not good to be against specific homosexuals qua human beings.

Again, in my study of the situation, homosexuality is a complex phenomenon consisting of genetic predispositions and a significant number of environmental/social pressures and influences (i.e., “as the twig is bent”).

I do note that the homosexuals I know personally have eventually been very troubled and hurt by the practice, including significant financial theft by ostensible lovers, various kinds of physical and emotional abuse. But I do not know whether such results occur more often than in heterosexual relationships; given the well-documented significantly higher number of sexual partners/events that take place, one might assume more “partner harm”.

Chalk me up as “anti-pro-gay-propaganda.”

 

[goofyjim]

With respect dear brother, I think you may be a bit naive. I understand your personal walk with Christ and admire your determination, but you and your experience is NOT representative of the “average” homosexual. “Most” are definately not living celibate lives and “most” do have numerous sexual partners. I am not making this up - the statistics are there. I can drag out personal experiences and so can you, but the facts don’t lie.

It is not your responsibility to deflect critical observations of the entire homosexual community in order to the prove the point that you are not in that camp.

It is my responsibility to deflect insane accusations. Are you familiar with Fr. Groeschel’s “The Courage To Be Chaste”? He makes the same statement that I do. Many, if not most, homosexual persons simply choose not to marry and live single lives. Do you then call him naive? The “statistics” you quote are only representative of the active homosexual not the full poulation.

 

[goofyjim]

If one is to read Church documents on this issue there have been many homosexuals who are verbally abused by those who mutter subtle inudendos under their breath. This is just wrong. Again we must witness that the behavior is destructive but I will not make jokes about them. If they are not practicing they suffer enough from those who do.

And to suggest that the gay statistics represent the whole homosexual population is like suggesting that NOW is really representing all women.

 

[Keikiolu]

im not looking for sympathy…im saying that homosexuals should be deemed equals with heterosexuals and treated accordingly unless there is valid evidence that says otherwise. the massachusetts supreme court couldn’t find it. im saying that in addition to psychological, and social evidence there no spiritual evidence.

Have you read this, Feet?

“Theology of the Body” or (same)

Specifically:
The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality
CCC Sixth Commandment

You may see things as you wish.

If you wish to see how the Church sees it, check with the Church.

Your initial question was “How can the Sinful ACTS of Same Sex Attraction (Homosexual) prone people be a sin?”.

Your arguments that “I don’t see it as sinful because it doesn’t look like sin to me” means nothing other than you’re not Catholic, and as such are free to see things as you like.

When you have processed what the Church has to say on the matter, then we will have something to talk about.

You’re not going to convince anyone of your position.

We’re not going to convince you of our position.

But, we can talk about the merits of our respective positions, which is always illuminating.

Thanks…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.