Is Belief In His Deity Essencial to salvation?

[MyRdmrLvs]

This is a question that I have wrestled with, not that I dont believe in it because there is a ton of scriptural support that Jesus is in fact God. But the nature of God is hard to fathom and some people cant get past the verses that distinguish the human Jesus from His Father and thus conclude they are not one and the same. However they do believe in the original apostles creed. Any scriptural support that says its essential would be helpful. I think I have some but dont want to offer it yet.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The original Apostles’ Creed, and the Nicene Creed (which has the authority of an Ecumenical Council) make it clear that Jesus is God Incarnate.

As far as honest souls who temporarily just don’t understand the deity of the Son/Logos, God will deal with them in His own time and way, and open their hearts to this truth.

 

[AmateurPianist]

This is a question that I have wrestled with, not that I dont believe in it because there is a ton of scriptural support that Jesus is in fact God. But the nature of God is hard to fathom and some people cant get past the verses that distinguish the human Jesus from His Father and thus conclude they are not one and the same. However they do believe in the original apostles creed. Any scriptural support that says its essential would be helpful. I think I have some but dont want to offer it yet.

That is an excellent question and one I have wondered about.

Why is it that the differences between some restorationalist groups (Mormons, JW) and orthodox Christians so great that the restorationalist groups are considered not Christian, while the differences between other groups are not essential. And why is there a legitimate debate concerning the status of other restorationalist groups (Adventists, Oneness Pentecostals).,

This is actually a better question for us Protestants. The Catholic answer of course is because the church teaches that baptism in a trinitarian format is the deal breaker. But what exactly is the criteria for Protestants as to what is essential and what is not.

 

[elvisman]

That is an excellent question and one I have wondered about.

Why is it that the differences between some restorationalist groups (Mormons, JW) and orthodox Christians so great that the restorationalist groups are considered not Christian, while the differences between other groups are not essential. And why is there a legitimate debate concerning the status of other restorationalist groups (Adventists, Oneness Pentecostals).,

This is actually a better question for us Protestants. The Catholic answer of course is because the church teaches that baptism in a trinitarian format is the deal breaker. But what exactly is the criteria for Protestants as to what is essential and what is not.

The therein lies the tragedy of Protestantism. There are no rules for everybody because everybody is encouraged to interpret the Scriptures for themselves.

To answer the question of the thread, I would say this:
**In Matt. 10:33, Jesus said, **"But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."

 

[Ad_Gentes]

This is a question that I have wrestled with, not that I dont believe in it because there is a ton of scriptural support that Jesus is in fact God. But the nature of God is hard to fathom and some people cant get past the verses that distinguish the human Jesus from His Father and thus conclude they are not one and the same. However they do believe in the original apostles creed. Any scriptural support that says its essential would be helpful. I think I have some but dont want to offer it yet.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1) The original Greek word for “Word” is Logos, which refers to Jesus Christ Our Lord. Here’s another scriptural example of Jesus divinity: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” (Jn 8:23) There are many other Scripture verses that point to Jesus divinity, as well as His humanity. I think this next verses sums it all: “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins (emphasis mine).” (Jn 8:24) Jesus commands us to believe that He is (“I am”) in order to be saved from our sins. “I am” is the name that God used when asked by Moses (“I AM THAT I AM” Ex 3:14), which has special significant when relating to Jesus’ divinity. In Acts of the Apostles Paul and Silas said the following: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” (Acts 16:31) If we must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, then we must believe in all of Jesus (including both his humanity and divinity).

These questions were also asked in the first centuries of Christianity. That is why the one Church (before schism and division) gathered in the First Council of Nicaea and then in the First Council of Constantinople, formulated the Nicene Creed which emphasizes both Jesus’ divinity and humanity as a thruth of faith to be believed by all Christians. This was done to clarify Scripture and the oral tradition passed down by the Apostles.

 

[Publisher]

I do not believe so. The deity of Christ took decades to come to the forefront of Christian thought. It was a “progressive” doctrine not fully realized in the first decades after the death of Jesus.

By the time the Gospel of John was written at the close of the 1st century into the 2nd, a more complete Christology had been formulated. The epistles also so a “progression” of understanding of the role of Jesus of Nazareth…by the time Colosians is written we have reference to the “exact image of the invisible God” being ascribed to Jesus.

 

[Mark77]

I do not believe so. The deity of Christ took decades to come to the forefront of Christian thought. It was a “progressive” doctrine not fully realized in the first decades after the death of Jesus.

By the time the Gospel of John was written at the close of the 1st century into the 2nd, a more complete Christology had been formulated. The epistles also so a “progression” of understanding of the role of Jesus of Nazareth…by the time Colosians is written we have reference to the “exact image of the invisible God” being ascribed to Jesus.

You all sound exactly like ‘doubting Thomas’! Have we learned so little in 2000 years?

What did the Apostle Thomas say after he put his finger in the Lord’s wounds? “Dominus Meus, et Deus Meus!” MY LORD & MY GOD! (Jn 20:28)

**If Jesus were not God, but merely a charismatic man or a learned teacher, or a Prophet as so many would falsely claim, He would surely have immediately rebuked Thomas because Thomas called Him **My Lord & MY GOD & what Thomas said would have been blasphemous, but Jesus said nothing.

Perhaps the understanding of many people developed over time & so many people still obviously do not understand, but the Truth, Jesus Christ, our Lord & Savior, was & is always God.

As to the most important question ever posed in all eternity; “Is Belief In His Deity Essential to salvation?”, **the answer is YES!!
**
Elvisman hit a Grand Slam Home Run when he said; "In Matt. 10:33, Jesus said, "But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."

**"]Think about it, if God came to your town today as a man & said “I am God” He would be locked up, declared insane , or worse yet, murdered as a blasphemer!
**
Obviously Jesus would not confront the uneducated masses of His time with a direct declaration of Divinity, but He clearly said “I AM” (to the Hebrews “I AM” is GOD"S SACRED NAME & no one would ever apply that title to themselves).

Jesus was being interrogated during His Passion; “But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 And Jesus said, "I AM;** and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”** 63 And the high priest tore his garments, and said, “Why do we still need witnesses? 64 You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?” And they all condemned him as deserving death." (Mk 14:61-64)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[TheosisM]

How does one reconcile this with what the Athanasian Creed states:

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; etc”…"This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. "

 

[Catdan]

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God:” Eph2.8.KJV

 

[ricko]

The Jews didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ.

 

[Masters_Servant]

This is a question that I have wrestled with, not that I dont believe in it because there is a ton of scriptural support that Jesus is in fact God. But the nature of God is hard to fathom and some people cant get past the verses that distinguish the human Jesus from His Father and thus conclude they are not one and the same. However they do believe in the original apostles creed. Any scriptural support that says its essential would be helpful. I think I have some but dont want to offer it yet.

I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 10:31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, **For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. **34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am [the] Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

The Jews had no doubt that He made the claim to be God.

What about John 1:1? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.-Rev. 1:8

Rev.21:6
And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. - Who can give life, the Creator only.

“Baptizing in the Name (singular) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.” - Great Commission in Matthew

If one does not recognize the Person of Jesus as fully human and fully God, then their is no salvation because they no not who they worship and therefore cannot worship in “spirit and truth” as commanded.

 

[SteveVH]

This is actually a better question for us Protestants. The Catholic answer of course is because the church teaches that baptism in a trinitarian format is the deal breaker. But what exactly is the criteria for Protestants as to what is essential and what is not.

The Catholic Church teaches baptism in a trinitarian format because that is what we were commanded to do by Jesus Himself: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. (Mt 28:19) It would seem that this should be a “deal breaker” to everyone who desires to keep Jesus’ commands and therefore would apply to Protestants as well, as it is certainly Biblical.

 

[planten]

The therein lies the tragedy of Protestantism. There are no rules for everybody because everybody is encouraged to interpret the Scriptures for themselves.

To answer the question of the thread, I would say this:
In Matt. 10:33, Jesus said, "But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."

Jesus can’t be God because the writings of Jews, Old Testament, sayings of Moses and other Israeli prophets will not allow it. Jesus was a Jew and he belonged to the Jews. Theree was not any christian to be seen.

Jesus never sid that he was God. The theory that Jesus was God is a derived theory, not a direct word of speech. The derived theory can be wrong too. It is such a serious subject that it cannot go un-noticed. The Muslims do not believe and do not allow any other God beside the One God.

The problem of the Christians is that they believe in three gods (Father, son and holy ghost). But then they have to run back to One God also. Why all that futile exercise??

It is not good to take preferred meanings from such words as: “The Father and I are one…”

That is true.

“Any one who has seen me has the Father…”

True again. But is it to be taken literally?? Surely not. There can be other very good more appropriate explanations of those verses. The Jews of his time, accused Jesus of many fals ethings. Those things must be considered false by the present day christians too. Otherwise they will be blaming (accusing) Jesus of those false things.

One of those was that he was the King of the Jews. He denied it.
The other was that he was God or son of God. Jesus explained that too and did not admit it. So why should the christians take up the same stand as that of the Jews who were enemies of Jesus in his time.

Whatever, the people of Jesus (Jews) did to Jesus as accusations, the same things are believed by the present day christians. We Muslims do not believe those things. Jesus never said in direct words that he was God. So no one should say such things by own derived meanings.

Samething about Trinity. Jesus never said there three gods in One God. He did not say that God the Father is composed of three gods. He talked about God (The Father) and talked a little about the son too. He talked about the holy spirit too which was right. Alright. He believed in the holy spirit. But never said that son was God or holy spirit was also a god, or part of God.

I hope that this riddle will soon be solved, somehow. We Muslims believe in Jesus to be a very good man, i.e. a prophet and that is the highest status for any man. That is as much as we Muslims can allow. There had been many prophets before Jesus. It is not anything unusual.

 

[Nine_Two]

That is an excellent question and one I have wondered about.

Why is it that the differences between some restorationalist groups (Mormons, JW) and orthodox Christians so great that the restorationalist groups are considered not Christian, while the differences between other groups are not essential. And why is there a legitimate debate concerning the status of other restorationalist groups (Adventists, Oneness Pentecostals).,

This is actually a better question for us Protestants. The Catholic answer of course is because the church teaches that baptism in a trinitarian format is the deal breaker. But what exactly is the criteria for Protestants as to what is essential and what is not.

I struggled with this question when I was a protestant. I read bits of the Nag Hammadi Library, and it forced me to come to the realization that either these abominations (the Nag Hammadi) were valid, or there is only one Truth and all others are in some way deficient.
Of course even then you’re still left figuring out what that one truth is.

 

[SteveVH]

Jesus can’t be God because the writings of Jews, Old Testament, sayings of Moses and other Israeli prophets will not allow it. Jesus was a Jew and he belonged to the Jews. Theree was not any christian to be seen.

Jesus never sid that he was God. The theory that Jesus was God is a derived theory, not a direct word of speech. The derived theory can be wrong too. It is such a serious subject that it cannot go un-noticed. The Muslims do not believe and do not allow any other God beside the One God.

The problem of the Christians is that they believe in three gods (Father, son and holy ghost). But then they have to run back to One God also. Why all that futile exercise??

It is not good to take preferred meanings from such words as: “The Father and I are one…”

That is true.

“Any one who has seen me has the Father…”

True again. But is it to be taken literally?? Surely not. There can be other very good more appropriate explanations of those verses. The Jews of his time, accused Jesus of many fals ethings. Those things must be considered false by the present day christians too. Otherwise they will be blaming (accusing) Jesus of those false things.

One of those was that he was the King of the Jews. He denied it.
The other was that he was God or son of God. Jesus explained that too and did not admit it. So why should the christians take up the same stand as that of the Jews who were enemies of Jesus in his time.

Whatever, the people of Jesus (Jews) did to Jesus as accusations, the same things are believed by the present day christians. We Muslims do not believe those things. Jesus never said in direct words that he was God. So no one should say such things by own derived meanings.

Samething about Trinity. Jesus never said there three gods in One God. He did not say that God the Father is composed of three gods. He talked about God (The Father) and talked a little about the son too. He talked about the holy spirit too which was right. Alright. He believed in the holy spirit. But never said that son was God or holy spirit was also a god, or part of God.

I hope that this riddle will soon be solved, somehow. We Muslims believe in Jesus to be a very good man, i.e. a prophet and that is the highest status for any man. That is as much as we Muslims can allow. There had been many prophets before Jesus. It is not anything unusual.

“He entered a boat, made the crossing, and came into his own town. And there the people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Courage child, your sins are forgiven.’ At that some of the scribes said to themselves, ‘This man is blaspheming.’ Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said ‘Why do you harbor such evil thoughts? Which is easier to say, "Your sins are forgiven’ , or to say ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins’ - he then said to the paralytic, ‘Rise, pick up your stretcher and go home’. He rose and went home.” (Matt 9:1-7)

The jews believed that only God could forgive sins. Jesus was a Jew, as you stated. Yet he forgave sin and proved it by healing the man. Keep in mind that he forgave his sins before he healed him. It was his primary purpose. There are many other texts. The words Jesus spoke about his divinity got him crucified. The Jews, speaking the same language in the same culture, understood him to be making the claim that he was God. He proved it through his many miracles. I understand that there is nothing, no matter how plain, that will convince you of this so I won’t bother reciting all of the texts that speak to this issue.

Also you misrepresent what Christians believe about the Trinity. We do not believe in “three Gods in one God”. We believe in three Persons in one God. I don’t have time to get into an extended conversation about the Trinity. Maybe later.

God bless you.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t have time to get into an extended conversation about the Trinity. Maybe later.

I assure you it isn’t worth it. The Trinity has been explained to him many, many times, but since the Koran says otherwise the Koran must be correct, and Christians are just lying. In keeping with this I’m sure he believes Jews worship Ezra.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus can’t be God because the writings of Jews, Old Testament, sayings of Moses and other Israeli prophets will not allow it. Jesus was a Jew and he belonged to the Jews. Theree was not any christian to be seen.

Jesus never sid that he was God. The theory that Jesus was God is a derived theory, not a direct word of speech. The derived theory can be wrong too. It is such a serious subject that it cannot go un-noticed. The Muslims do not believe and do not allow any other God beside the One God.

The problem of the Christians is that they believe in three gods (Father, son and holy ghost). But then they have to run back to One God also. Why all that futile exercise??

It is not good to take preferred meanings from such words as: “The Father and I are one…”

That is true.

“Any one who has seen me has the Father…”

True again. But is it to be taken literally?? Surely not. There can be other very good more appropriate explanations of those verses. The Jews of his time, accused Jesus of many fals ethings. Those things must be considered false by the present day christians too. Otherwise they will be blaming (accusing) Jesus of those false things.

One of those was that he was the King of the Jews. He denied it.
The other was that he was God or son of God. Jesus explained that too and did not admit it. So why should the christians take up the same stand as that of the Jews who were enemies of Jesus in his time.

Whatever, the people of Jesus (Jews) did to Jesus as accusations, the same things are believed by the present day christians. We Muslims do not believe those things. Jesus never said in direct words that he was God. So no one should say such things by own derived meanings.

Samething about Trinity. Jesus never said there three gods in One God. He did not say that God the Father is composed of three gods. He talked about God (The Father) and talked a little about the son too. He talked about the holy spirit too which was right. Alright. He believed in the holy spirit. But never said that son was God or holy spirit was also a god, or part of God.

I hope that this riddle will soon be solved, somehow. We Muslims believe in Jesus to be a very good man, i.e. a prophet and that is the highest status for any man. That is as much as we Muslims can allow. There had been many prophets before Jesus. It is not anything unusual.

Oh, Planten - you are dead wrong on so many points it’s difficult to know where to begin.

Let’s start with Jesus never stating that he was God:
In John 8:58 Jesus declares, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." Anybody who knows the story of Moses before the burning bush knows that this is the name that God told Moses to call him by (Ex. 3:14).

In the very next verse (John 8:58), the Jews picked up stones to throw at Jesus because they felt he had blasphemed against god by claiming that he himself was God (I AM).
In Isaiah 7:14, we read a prophecy about Jesus:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel."
Matthew 1:23 tells us the meaning of Emmanuel: God with us.
**Thomas proclaimed Jesus as, *“My Lord and my God" ***(John 20.28) – and Jesus did not dispute it.

Still with me, Planten? Good. Let’s move on.

Secondly, Christians do not believe in 3 Gods. That is a Muslim lie.
We believe in one God in three persons - so does Scripture:
John 5:7
"For there are three that testify: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

Lastly, before God created man, what did he say? He said:
Gen. 1:26
Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;

**Please respond **to the points I have made and please do not dance around the issue.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

The original Apostles’ Creed, and the Nicene Creed (which has the authority of an Ecumenical Council) make it clear that Jesus is God Incarnate.

As far as honest souls who temporarily just don’t understand the deity of the Son/Logos, God will deal with them in His own time and way, and open their hearts to this truth.

The Catholic Church
The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives the following English translation of the Apostles’ Creed.[15] In its discussion of the Creed,[16] the Catechism maintains the traditional division into twelve articles, the numbering of which is here added to the text.

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.
    Amen.

this list does not include His deity, the mater was not settled until almost the 4th century
after a great deal of debate.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

That is an excellent question and one I have wondered about.

Why is it that the differences between some restorationalist groups (Mormons, JW) and orthodox Christians so great that the restorationalist groups are considered not Christian, while the differences between other groups are not essential. And why is there a legitimate debate concerning the status of other restorationalist groups (Adventists, Oneness Pentecostals).,

This is actually a better question for us Protestants. The Catholic answer of course is because the church teaches that baptism in a trinitarian format is the deal breaker. But what exactly is the criteria for Protestants as to what is essential and what is not.

you can be baptized in the name of the Father the Son, and theHoly Spirit without knowing they are all one God.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

The therein lies the tragedy of Protestantism. There are no rules for everybody because everybody is encouraged to interpret the Scriptures for themselves.

To answer the question of the thread, I would say this:
In Matt. 10:33, Jesus said, "But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."

Wasnt the great schism caused by a disagreement of “essential”? wasnt someone damed to hell over believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the father and not also from the Son?? I think there are many disagreements among Catholics. But its easy to say you all agree if you claim that anyone who doesnt agree isnt really one of you. The JWS make that same claim.