Is Belief In His Deity Essencial to salvation?

[MyRdmrLvs]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1) The original Greek word for “Word” is Logos, which refers to Jesus Christ Our Lord. Here’s another scriptural example of Jesus divinity: “And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” (Jn 8:23) There are many other Scripture verses that point to Jesus divinity, as well as His humanity. I think this next verses sums it all: “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins (emphasis mine).” (Jn 8:24) Jesus commands us to believe that He is (“I am”) in order to be saved from our sins. “I am” is the name that God used when asked by Moses (“I AM THAT I AM” Ex 3:14), which has special significant when relating to Jesus’ divinity. In Acts of the Apostles Paul and Silas said the following: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved…” (Acts 16:31) If we must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, then we must believe in all of Jesus (including both his humanity and divinity).

These questions were also asked in the first centuries of Christianity. That is why the one Church (before schism and division) gathered in the First Council of Nicaea and then in the First Council of Constantinople, formulated the Nicene Creed which emphasizes both Jesus’ divinity and humanity as a thruth of faith to be believed by all Christians. This was done to clarify Scripture and the oral tradition passed down by the Apostles.

The John 8 verse is the one I was referring to, I noticed you have the word “HE” in the greek it just says “if you do not believe that I AM” most translations dont leave it that way usually adding He or something else, sometimes in parenthesis to indicate that its been added. Clearly if Jesus was using the tetragramitin to refer to himself then He was claiming to be God and saying it is essential. But if He is just saying I am he, the one youve been waiting for. then there is no other verse I know of that makes it essential.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

You all sound exactly like ‘doubting Thomas’! Have we learned so little in 2000 years?

What did the Apostle Thomas say after he put his finger in the Lord’s wounds? "Dominus Meus, et Deus Meus!" MY LORD & MY GOD! (Jn 20:28)

**If Jesus were not God, but merely a charismatic man or a learned teacher, or a Prophet as so many would falsely claim, He would surely have immediately rebuked Thomas because Thomas called Him **My Lord & MY GOD & what Thomas said would have been blasphemous, but Jesus said nothing.

Perhaps the understanding of many people developed over time & so many people still obviously do not understand, but the Truth, Jesus Christ, our Lord & Savior, was & is always God.

As to the most important question ever posed in all eternity; “Is Belief In His Deity Essential to salvation?”, **the answer is YES!!
**
Elvisman hit a Grand Slam Home Run when he said; "In Matt. 10:33, Jesus said, "But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father."

**"]Think about it, if God came to your town today as a man & said “I am God” He would be locked up, declared insane , or worse yet, murdered as a blasphemer!
**

Obviously Jesus would not confront the uneducated masses of His time with a direct declaration of Divinity, but He clearly said “I AM” (to the Hebrews “I AM” is GOD"S SACRED NAME & no one would ever apply that title to themselves).

Jesus was being interrogated during His Passion; “But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 And Jesus said, "I AM;** and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”** 63 And the high priest tore his garments, and said, “Why do we still need witnesses? 64 You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?” And they all condemned him as deserving death." (Mk 14:61-64)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

A JW would never deny Jesus they are devoted to Him and believe in His teachings as they understand them.

 

[hamba2han]

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” … John 20:28

For someone who is in a state of astonishment, couldn’t this impulsive blurt of expression be logically translated as “My Lord… Oh my God!” in modern-day parlance?

 

[elvisman]

Wasnt the great schism caused by a disagreement of “essential”? wasnt someone damed to hell over believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the father and not also from the Son?? I think there are many disagreements among Catholics. But its easy to say you all agree if you claim that anyone who doesnt agree isnt really one of you. The JWS make that same claim.

I never said there weren’t disagreements among Catholics.
What I AM saying is that you cannot be a “cafeteria Catholic” and consider yourself a faithful Catholic.

There is a name for Catholics who disagree with Catholic doctrines. They’re called, “Protestants”.

 

[elvisman]

A JW would never deny Jesus they are devoted to Him and believe in His teachings as they understand them.

They deny him when they deny his divinity.

**You seem too think that just because there were disagreements in the Early Church that Jesus’ divinity wasn’t decided until the 4th century. This is ignorance in its purest form

**When the Church declared doctrines or dogmas, it wasn’t because it discovered a “new truth”. It was to reiterate what was always believed. It has bveen showed - several times, I might add - in the Scriptures that Jesus is God and proclaimed it himself.

You can defame the Fathers all you want but you can’t argure with the explicit teachings of Scripture on the matter, your ignorance and spiritual pride notwithstanding . . .

 

[elvisman]

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” … John 20:28

For someone who is in a state of astonishment, couldn’t this impulsive blurt of expression be logically translated as “My Lord… Oh my God!” in modern-day parlance?

And if he was wrong, Jesus would have admonished him - but he DIDN’T.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Suggested reading for the catholic view: Jesus of Nazereth by Pope Benedict XVI
pages 320-355.

I have no idea if it is essential or not, but if it is not essential then Jesus is merely a great guy and a fantastic teacher. Nothing more.

 

[hamba2han]

And if he was wrong, Jesus would have admonished him - but he DIDN’T.

The point that I was making is that the impulsive expression “Oh my God!” by an astonished Thomas is NOT an acknowledgement by him that Jesus (pbuh) is God.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The point that I was making is that the impulsive expression “Oh my God!” by an astonished Thomas is NOT an acknowledgement by him that Jesus (pbuh) is God.

Oh yes, that is about as likely as snow in hell. Jews would never dream of using a reference to God in a slang way. It would be breaking a commandment anyway! Astonishment is no excuse for sinning.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

And if he was wrong, Jesus would have admonished him - but he DIDN’T.

I think you missed the point he was making. When Thomas said “My Lord and My God” he may not have been referring to Christ, but to God the Father.

Why would Jesus admonish Thomas for Thomas saying “My Lord and My God” to God the Father?

The verse in question says as follows:

**John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” **

If the scripture said: Thomas then referred directly to him and said “My Lord and my God!” that would be a slam sunk reference to Jesus as God.

The antedotal evidence certainly favors the Scriptural reference for Thomas referring to Jesus as God in this verse, but even the last verse in this chapter doesn’t clarify it for us. It states as such:

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

This debate could have been laid to rest had the verse been stated as such: but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is God and the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

I for one am thankful we have a Church we can turn to, to resolve such matters of what has been taught from the very beginning because sola scriptura can be bent and shaped to fit the meaning you want it to mean.

 

[planten]

And if he was wrong, Jesus would have admonished him - but he DIDN’T.

elvisman, please do not read too much in what Thomas said. hamba is right. It could be an expression of extreme joy to see Jesus alive. There was no Jesus God business in what he said.

Thomas had not believed that the Master (Jesus) was alive. That was all. That is why he said that he would not believe unless he saw the wounds and unless he put his finger in the wounds. He was right in all that too.

But when he met Jesus and saw the truth in front of him, when he faced the truth right in front of him, he was overjoyed and said something : " My Lord and my God! " He did not address Jesus that he was his Lord or his God. He praised his Lord and his God for the survival of Jesus.

You people are reading too much into things and sometime you are taking things literally. Could you please explain the son of God literally?? or Spiritually??

The words of Thomas were those of surprise and extreme joy. That is all. Did he say, “oh my Master, Jesus, You are my Lord and my God??” Not at all.

Why to rely on Thomas only?? What about other apostles?? The other Ten?? Why did they never say that Jesus was God? It means the other Ten denied the divinity of Jesus because they never uttered those words “Lord and God”. So it is a vote of one man (Thomas) against the other Ten.

We cannot permit you to take far fetched meanings of the words of the bible. If Thomas said a few unrelated (ambigous) words, it does not make Jesus as God. Please note that making a man into God is a very serious matter. The Jews would never do that. It cannot rest upon the words of just one man (Thomas) who was also a high level Jew.

And Jesus never in his life time said that he was God. If he said “I am.” it has no meaning. Why did Jesus say, “I am.” Why he did not say “I am God.”?? If the Jews ask him “Are you the son of God” and he says “I am.” It is understandable.

If the Jews ask him "ARe you God?’ and he said “I am.” or “yes, I am.” then it could mean something. But there is no such thing.

If the council of Jews accused him of blasphemy, you are only providing the proof. That is not fair. You are taking support from the statements of the Jews who were then bent upon killing Jesus. You mean they were right??. I could not believe that.

 

[SteveVH]

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” … John 20:28

For someone who is in a state of astonishment, couldn’t this impulsive blurt of expression be logically translated as “My Lord… Oh my God!” in modern-day parlance?

They didn’t speak in modern day parlance and this would have been seen as taking the Lord’s name in vain. I seriously doubt Thomas would have done that at such a moment.

 

[SteveVH]

But when he met Jesus and saw the truth in front of him, when he faced the truth right in front of him, he was overjoyed and said something : " My Lord and my God! " He did not address Jesus that he was his Lord or his God.

WHAT? Did you read what you wrote? You really should just give up. This isn’t worth even addressing.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…We cannot permit you to take far fetched meanings of the words of the bible. If Thomas said a few unrelated (ambigous) words, it does not make Jesus as God. Please note that making a man into God is a very serious matter. It cannot rest upon the words of just one man (Thomas).

We as Catholics rely on the constant teaching of the Christian faithful from Apostolic times until today. Anyone can take Scripture out of context if they so chose. I’m sure there are those who take the Q’uaran and do the same thing to fit the purposes the individual wants to do for whatever agenda they are trying to accomplish.

planten:

But when he met Jesus and saw the truth in front of him, when he faced the truth right in front of him, he was overjoyed and said something : " My Lord and my God! " He did not address Jesus that he was his Lord or his God. He praised his Lord and his God for the survival of Jesus.

Actually, the Scripture DOES indicate that he addressed Jesus. The scripture says that Thomas answered Him and said “My Lord and My God.” The context isn’t clear I will admit, but he certainly was addressing Jesus when Thomas spoke those words.

 

[planten]

The post of elvisman:

Still with me, Planten? Good. Let’s move on.

Secondly, Christians do not believe in 3 Gods. That is a Muslim lie.
We believe in one God in three persons - so does Scripture:

You say christians do not believe in three gods. I doubt it. I ask you :
Is Jesus as God or not?
Is Holy spirit a God or not?
Is Father a God or Not?

So there are three Gods too and then they are together as ONE God. I agree you believe in One God. But you have the three gods too. It cannot be understood, how possible.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You say christians do not believe in three gods. I doubt it. I ask you :
Is Jesus as God or not?
Is Holy spirit a God or not?
Is Father a God or Not?

So there are three Gods too and then they are together as ONE God. I agree you believe in One God. But you have the three gods too. It cannot be understood, how possible.

Planten, you can disagree with the Trinity but just because you don’t understand how it is still monotheistic doesn’t make it polythiestic simply because you don’t grasp the theology.

 

[SteveVH]

You say christians do not believe in three gods. I doubt it. I ask you :
Is Jesus as God or not?
Is Holy spirit a God or not?
Is Father a God or Not?

So there are three Gods too and then they are together as ONE God. I agree you believe in One God. But you have the three gods too. It cannot be understood, how possible.

No, Jesus is not a God, He is God.
No, the Holy Spirit is not a God, He is God.
No, the Father is Not a God, He is God.
There is only ONE.

The fact that you do not comprehend it does not make it untrue. We are speaking of understanding the infinite God with finite minds. As I have told you before, this is revealed truth.

 

[planten]

No, Jesus is not a God, He is God.
No, the Holy Spirit is not a God, He is God.
No, the Father is Not a God, He is God.
There is only ONE.

The fact that you do not comprehend it does not make it untrue. We are speaking of understanding the infinite God with finite minds. As I have told you before, this is revealed truth.

steveVH, so I understand that Jesus is God. Father is God. Holy Spirit is God. They are all Gods. There is no other God beside them.
Yet there is only One God.
Is that alright??

 

[SteveVH]

steveVH, so I understand that Jesus is God.Father is God. Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there is only One God.
Is that alright??

Yes, that is right, but not the whole story as you are certainly aware. Knowing that the doctrine of the Trinity has been explained to you in detail, I won’t waste my time going through it again. I don’t think you are interested in the truth of what we believe.

 

[planten]

Yes, that is right, but not the whole story as you are certainly aware. Knowing that the doctrine of the Trinity has been explained to you in detail, I won’t waste my time going through it again. **I don’t think you are interested **in the truth of what we believe.

How can I be interested in your belief of Trinity when I do not understand it. I have explained my present reach into the mystery of Trinity in my last edited post . You have approved it. But again you tried to disagree. I cannot understand what is wrong. May be you want to complicate things for me beyond my comprehension.

You can see my previous post again and let me know where you need to amend things. Please do not take me on any perilous journey into the world of the unknown. Religion cannot be so complicated for the people.