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Is Bible Corrupted By Human, Did God Knew That It Going To Happened
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planten
Guest
Your posts #18 and #19. Excellent work. You are a Master of theological excellence. I enjoyed every word of the mentioned posts. You have proved the point that parts of the OT have been altered. Anyway, I learned much from your posts and thank you very much.
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dolphinlove
Guest
How can you say the OT was corrupt when you compare it to the quran?
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Angelos
Guest
The writers of this article definitely attempt to pervert the Old Testament through their misinterpretation - which aims to satisfy their desires - of the verses. In the quotation above, Moses does not even imply that the Torah will be textually corrupted after his death. What he says is that his people will be utterly corrupt and turn away from the way commanded to them. This by no means entails textual corruption. More to the point, the reason for Mosesâ placing the book of Law beside the ark of covenant is not its preservation as it is falsely suggested by these Muslim missionaries, but Mosesâ will to set it as a witness highlighting the predicted corruption of the people.
However, the Koran never claims that the Old Testament was textually corrupted and lost its authenticity. Although some verses of the late Medina period in the Koran blame the Jews of Mohammadâs period (!) for concealing the truth in the Torah and deliberately misreading or misinterpreting the text, these accusations clearly aim to present those Jews as unreliable and utterly corrupt characters. The occurrence of these accusations in the Medina period is consistent with the rising tension between Mohammad and the Jews after the migration, which eventually caused Muslims to have anti-Semitic sensations. Before the migration, Mohammad is reported to have been commanded to consult Jews if he has doubts concerning the revelation given to him in a Surah of Mecca period (10:94).
It is rather funny and childish to conclude that the Torah is corrupted because it is not identical or similar to the Koran in form and/or content. Since Judaism does not also believe that the Koran is the final divine revelation, the Koran cannot be a checklist for the authenticity of their scripture, nor can the Islamic text be considered as evidence for the supposed corruption of the Torah. In short, the basic articles of faith in Judaism and the textual integrity of its scripture can never be determined by what is written in the Koran.
Jews can also assert and believe that the Koran is a fabricated text with no divine authority because the feast of Passover (one of the basic tenets of Judaism!) is missing from the Koran.
This proves that not all Jewish sects deny bodily resurrection and the day of judgment. The first five books of the Old testament do not clearly state or imply the immortality of human soul because death is emphasized as the sign of divine punishment whereas the land of promise and long life are presented as signs of divine mercy and grace.
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Angelos
Guest
However, it is saddening to see that the writers of the Koran somehow forgot to mention the textual corruption of the former revelations and kept saying that the Koran was sent to confirm the Jewish and Christian scripture! Surah 9:111, quoted above, neither implicitly nor explicitly distinguishes Jewish and Christian scripture in Mohammadâs time from their alleged original form. Actually, it is Muslim scholars who misinterpret the Koran and pervert its meaning in order to slander the former revelations. If Mohammadâs scribes had endorsed the Islamic traditional assertion that the former revelations had lost their original form, they would have used specific adjectives (true/original/genuine) whenever they referred to the Torah and Gospels.
You had already posted this argument. The life of the Hereafter and Doomsday recurrently appears in the Koran because Mohammadâs scribes adopted that tenet from the Jews and Christians of that period!
These Muslim missionaries deliberately ignore the context of the Book of Ecclesiastes to no avail! The author of this specific book focuses on the sense of human sight and observation while talking about death and dead people. Therefore, it is rather natural for the book to have verses implying the denial of immortality. It is definitely true that human senses are limited and cannot observe life after death.
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Angelos
Guest
I fail to understand why Muslim missionaries quoted these verses from Jeremiah? If they want to use it as evidence for the supposed textual corruption of the Old Testament, they will be utterly disappointed after wasting their time and making vain efforts. This certain passage in Jeremiah deals with false prophets and their reproval by God. Apparently, God is always present to preserve His truth from false teachers and the ones distorting His words. Thus, God in the Old Testament is not the same as the god of Islam, who is believed to fail to preserve his message after the death of his messengers.
The Koran never claims to RECTIFY the former revelations, but only to CONFIRM them. Likewise, the Koran never divides the The Old and the New Testament into sections on the basis of their authenticity. Muslim missionaries once more resort to lying about their own scripture.
These quoted verses say nothing about the supposed corruption though! The Koran clearly confirms what Jews HAVE with them, not particular verses or chapters!
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Pete_1
Guest
If the book was corrupt how could it be a good witness against the corrupt jews?
peace,
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planten
Guest
That is right. How could a corrupt book be a witness against the Jews. But that book was original. It was not corrupt. So that is the book in which was the true teaching. And Moses told every one that they will be judged by the teachings of that book. So even if they (Jews) have altered the words of the book, they will be judged by the words of the original book which was given to them.
Whatever is said by the friends here in support of the OT, I see that by presenting the words from the OT, Tomshaikh has proved that OT is not the same original one.
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Angelos
Guest
Still, how can you conclude that the Book of Law was altered by Jews while nothing in those quoted verses even imply it? What in that section of the Torah makes you assume that the Book of Law placed behind the ark of covenant is not the same as the Book of Law Jews have today?
Interestingly, the following verse in the Koran warns Muslims not to alter their covenant with Allah:
16:95. And purchase not a small gain at the price of Allahâs covenant. Lo! that which Allah hath is better for you, if ye did but know.
Shall I conclude from this verse that Allah predicts the textual corruption of his divine revelation?
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inJESUS
Guest
If the OT passage use proves corruptness of the OT, the following verse proves the corruptness of the Quran:
Such as We send down for those who make division, Those who break the Qurâan into parts."
Such as We send down for those who make division, Those who break the Qurâan into parts."
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dolphinlove
Guest
Three words:
Dead sea scrolls. Do these appear in the quran? No
Do they appear in the bible? Yes!
Dead sea scrolls. Do these appear in the quran? No
Do they appear in the bible? Yes!
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Delora
Guest
Originally Posted by tomshaikh
Hello Christians Friend I would like to show you Deuteronomy 31:24-29.
24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the
covenant of the LORD, saying:
26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
27 a"for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, **you **have been rebellious against the LORD, then how much more after my death?28 "Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
29 âFor I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.â
These verses in and of themselves do not show that the Old Testament is not in its original form.
Facts of the Verses:
Furthermore, one cannot prove the Bible false, using the Koran, to a Christian. That is because we find the Koran to be false, especially when there are discrepancies between the two.
It is similar to us using the Bible to prove the Koran wrong, to a Muslim. You would not believe the Bible over the Koran, as you have shown in your posts.
Though, in my understanding the Old Testament is the foundation for the Koran. The Koran cannot declare its foundation false, without raising questions as to its own legitimacy. But the foundation can condemn the new growth as heretical and false, without that problem.
Hello Christians Friend I would like to show you Deuteronomy 31:24-29.
24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the
covenant of the LORD, saying:
26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
27 a"for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, **you **have been rebellious against the LORD, then how much more after my death?28 "Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
29 âFor I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.â
These verses in and of themselves do not show that the Old Testament is not in its original form.
Facts of the Verses:
- Moses finishes the book of law and gives it to the Levites
- Moses tells the Levites
a) to put the book of law next to the covenant as the book of law to serve as a witness against the Levites
b) that he knows how the Levites are and if they are rebellious while Moses is there, then certainly they will be rebellious while Moses is not there.
c) to gather people so that they may hear what he says, which the earth and heavens will witness as well.
d) that they will be corrupt, and turn from the ways of Mosesâ teachings
e) that evil will befall them, because they will do evil in the Sight of God, with their handiwork.
Furthermore, one cannot prove the Bible false, using the Koran, to a Christian. That is because we find the Koran to be false, especially when there are discrepancies between the two.
It is similar to us using the Bible to prove the Koran wrong, to a Muslim. You would not believe the Bible over the Koran, as you have shown in your posts.
Though, in my understanding the Old Testament is the foundation for the Koran. The Koran cannot declare its foundation false, without raising questions as to its own legitimacy. But the foundation can condemn the new growth as heretical and false, without that problem.
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ralphinal
Guest
Allah says that it is corrupt. He did not (or could not) say how, when, where or why. Only that it was. Why not point out the mistakes? Why not tell us when it occured?
By the way, I have the same issue with the claims that the Catholic Church Apostocized. Tell me when and where and how clearly.
By the way, I have the same issue with the claims that the Catholic Church Apostocized. Tell me when and where and how clearly.
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inJESUS
Guest
pretty logical yet not shared by Islamic logic which says : if what i believe in contradicts yours, then yours must be wrong, even if it is the Word of God revealed before my book.
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inJESUS
Guest
no he did not
Muhammad claimed to confirm what Jews and Christians had in their hands during his time.
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Lilyflower
Guest
It is quite likely that error in interpretation crept in. It is also likely that certain texts were inserted by the Church not to deceive but to teach a particular point. But we believe that despite this, the integrity of the Bible holds true: that the Holy Spirit ensures its message of proclaiming Christ is truth and can be relied upon
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planten
Guest
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The corruption is being done in the name of correction. What we have in the bible NT now does not tell anything true about the life history of Jesus. People have changed many things.
The bible OT is more reliable. But Shaikh sahib has proved by the quotes from the bible OT that Moses had predicted the corruption. The corruption is usually in two ways. The literal word changing, addition and extraction of words into the sacred scripture.
Also mis-interpretation of the sacred words. In the bible, both types of corruption has taken place. The Quran confirms that Moses was given a book Torah and Jesus was given Injeel. But the Quran also tells us that the Jews and Christians made alterations in their books. It is written in the Quran that many changes had been made in the sacred books.
The entire bible OT and NT have not been maltreated. There is plenty of knowledge and truth in them even now.**
Thanks, you have admitted human intervention. Improvement in the words of God is not needed. It further proves that the bible NT is not is not the word of God. It is the words of men only and they need to be improved by men daily. That is why so many different versions are coming out.
The corruption is being done in the name of correction. What we have in the bible NT now does not tell anything true about the life history of Jesus. People have changed many things.
The bible OT is more reliable. But Shaikh sahib has proved by the quotes from the bible OT that Moses had predicted the corruption. The corruption is usually in two ways. The literal word changing, addition and extraction of words into the sacred scripture.
Also mis-interpretation of the sacred words. In the bible, both types of corruption has taken place. The Quran confirms that Moses was given a book Torah and Jesus was given Injeel. But the Quran also tells us that the Jews and Christians made alterations in their books. It is written in the Quran that many changes had been made in the sacred books.
The entire bible OT and NT have not been maltreated. There is plenty of knowledge and truth in them even now.**
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abucs
Guest
I donât think God is looking at us in our time and space thinking - âi wonder how my book is coming alongâ.
It is just plain silly to think that the dozens of books of the OT Testament or the new or the Koran or any other book is Godâs gift to mankind to be followed without question.
The books of antiquity are interesting and informative and need to be studied inside and out. They refer to many different things such as Jewish law, history, songs, politics, stories and more important for us Christians, a commentary in the NT on Christ by contemporaries.
A book was simply the best way of recording thoughts and happenings and reaching a wide audience up until the last century.
The bible is, as was mentioned above, a collection of books that has been written over a period of thousands of years. It is one of the great libraries of books of antiquity and makes some very important claims regarding spirituality and God - which is a very important aspect of life.
By comparing the different sources of the new testament it can be deduced what early Christians thought of such topics of the incarnation of the Christ and the path to salvation and the nature of our underlying reality.
Thatâs not to say that the same words and meanings were kept constant in the different languages they were translated into. But by comparing the diverse spread of the early bibles we can get right back to the thoughts of the contempories of Christ.
The Christian view today is that view.
The koran for example cannot do that. There was a massive burning of Koranic verses in the middle east after the death of Muhammad. The Caliph Uthman issued what was to become the correct official Koran.
In reality we can only go back to what Caliph Uthman thinks although there are a few older and differing koran fragments that have survived.
If God was wanting to produce a final book on everything you think that he would have actually given it to someone intact, say Peter or Muhammud instead of having it pieced together decades after the event. We know the collection of new testament âgospelsâ were kept and put together by the Church at a later date. We know that after Muhammads death there were only scattered writings that differred from eachother and was made uniform by the Caliph.
Neither convince me that Godâs connection and dialogue to us is primarily through an infallible book. I think thatâs just silly, and narrow minded and causes arguements. That doesnât sound like God to me.
theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran
gazellebookservices.co.uk/ISBN/1591025214.htm
yourhappyplace.yuku.com/topic/9513
It is just plain silly to think that the dozens of books of the OT Testament or the new or the Koran or any other book is Godâs gift to mankind to be followed without question.
The books of antiquity are interesting and informative and need to be studied inside and out. They refer to many different things such as Jewish law, history, songs, politics, stories and more important for us Christians, a commentary in the NT on Christ by contemporaries.
A book was simply the best way of recording thoughts and happenings and reaching a wide audience up until the last century.
The bible is, as was mentioned above, a collection of books that has been written over a period of thousands of years. It is one of the great libraries of books of antiquity and makes some very important claims regarding spirituality and God - which is a very important aspect of life.
By comparing the different sources of the new testament it can be deduced what early Christians thought of such topics of the incarnation of the Christ and the path to salvation and the nature of our underlying reality.
Thatâs not to say that the same words and meanings were kept constant in the different languages they were translated into. But by comparing the diverse spread of the early bibles we can get right back to the thoughts of the contempories of Christ.
The Christian view today is that view.
The koran for example cannot do that. There was a massive burning of Koranic verses in the middle east after the death of Muhammad. The Caliph Uthman issued what was to become the correct official Koran.
In reality we can only go back to what Caliph Uthman thinks although there are a few older and differing koran fragments that have survived.
If God was wanting to produce a final book on everything you think that he would have actually given it to someone intact, say Peter or Muhammud instead of having it pieced together decades after the event. We know the collection of new testament âgospelsâ were kept and put together by the Church at a later date. We know that after Muhammads death there were only scattered writings that differred from eachother and was made uniform by the Caliph.
Neither convince me that Godâs connection and dialogue to us is primarily through an infallible book. I think thatâs just silly, and narrow minded and causes arguements. That doesnât sound like God to me.
theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran
gazellebookservices.co.uk/ISBN/1591025214.htm
yourhappyplace.yuku.com/topic/9513
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Angelos
Guest
I am about to conclude that resorting to dishonesty and ignorance is a genetically encoded Muslim trait. What leads me to this conclusion is your tendency to pervert the statements of a Christian believer by picking up some sentences and forcing them to support your faulty assertions. The only thing I can do for you for now is gently ask you to read Lilyflowerâs post once more and pay attention to its first sentence: âIt is quite likely that error in interpretation crept in.â
Lilyflower does not mean what you falsely claim because his/her post right from the first denies the idea of deliberate textual corruption.
Yes, corruption came through the claims of correction when an illiterate guy living in Mecca suddenly contended that he was the fnal messenger sent to humanity with the final divine revelation. The only textual corruption of the Old and New Testament became possible when Mohammad got his scribes to write his inconsistent and heretical teachings to devise his scripture named the Koran. Praised be the name of the LORD that we Christians and Jews still have the original version of Godâs word (the Bible) unlike Muslims that have its corrupted version (the Koran).
Further, what makes you conclude that âpeople have changed many thingsâ and âwhat we have in the Bible NT now does not tell anything true about the life history of Jesusâ? Let me guess: the Koran? Do you really believe that a book devised 600 years after Christ and His church can be more reliable than the books authorized by Jesusâ apostles and His church? Do you really believe that the Koran, which has but inadequate and contradictory data about Jesusâ life and prophetic ministry is better than the NT? How can you disregard the fact that most of the narratives about Jesusâ life story in the Koran were adopted from some Apocryphal Gospels???
First, we have proven several times that Shaikhâs assertions are baseless since they are derived from the deliberate misreading and misinterpretation of Mosesâ warnings in the Old Testament.
Second, the Koran is not exempt from textual corruption with the help of Muslim scholars who deliberately misread its verses and misinterpret them for the sake of proving their uncanny allegations. Further, Muslims more often tend to distort their scripture while translating it into different languages.
Third, the Koran commands Mohammad to consult Jews if he has any doubts concerning the stories revealed to him (10:94). If some Koran verses really assert (as you suggest) that the former revelations were textually corrupted and their authenticity was lost , this is in clear contrast with the verses stating that Jews and Christians had the original revelations with them in Mohammadâs period.
We also do not believe that whatever written in the Koran is completely heretical and untrue. There is some truth in the Koran, but this does not suffice to make it a divine revelation.
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whiteknite
Guest
All religons are corrupt, Man cant help but change things for his own personal greed. And if people question them then it is the devil speaking and must be destroyed LOLHow can you say the OT was corrupt when you compare it to the quran?
âGod wills itâ
Religons where made for the good of mankind but too many wars are caused by it because simple questioned get turned around and twistedâŚ
The church is built up on too much blood shed for me to believe any 1 religonâŚ
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