Is Bible Corrupted By Human, Did God Knew That It Going To Happened

[inJESUS]

Planten, when will you learn that there is difference between the Bible and Quran in terms of revelation? you believe the Quran is MUNZAL, that is, DICTATED WORD BY WORD by Allah. This have never, is not, and will never be the case of the Bible. It is about INSPIRATION v/s TANZEEL.

If, and If the church needed to add anything to the text against heretics, it does NOT mean the word of God was tempered with because the NT is NOT dictated by God but is the inspired TESTIMONY of the apostles and Christianity is the NT and their TRADITIONS so if the church needed to add any explanation, it is done in accordance with the Tradition passed down BY THE APOSTLES. So if the church added anything, , it has abosultly NO PROBLEM to us Christians! you are making a problem where there is NONE.

Besides, if the church added anything, WHEN was it if during Muhammad’s time he confirmed the gospels?

and, will the church add the crucifixion of Jesus that you deny? if yes, then how come NON-Biblical data report this incident?

 

[inJESUS]

The church is built up on too much blood shed for me to believe any 1 religon…

you have a dark side and a bad side…does one negate the other?you see the shortcomings but you do not see the good things?

 

[whiteknite]

you have a dark side and a bad side…does one negate the other?you see the shortcomings but you do not see the good things?

I dont have a dark side or bad side…
Your mistaking me for someone else
OR maybe i’m a witch and should be burned… Maybe??
I could compare the OT with Lord of the rings with all the battles and fighting that goes on…

 

[inJESUS]

I dont have a dark side or bad side…

Your mistaking me for someone else

 

[whiteknite]

yes sorry i mistook you for a human.

 

[tomshaikh]

Any Christian Any Christian!!!

 

[planten]

Jesus came, the Word Incarnate, and dwelt among us. If there were any problems with scripture before that, and I am not conceding that there were, Jesus set the record straight. Jesus was very clear.

People are always getting things wrong for all sorts of reasons. Some just don’t understand. For others, perhaps ego gets in the way. There are so many reasons why people get things wrong.

But Jesus came and not only gave us the Gospel, he gave us the Church. And He promised that the Church would stand and would always be right. We can trust Jesus.

** MelanieAnne, You are right. We Muslims believe that Moses was a True prophet of God. he was giventhe message for his people.

So was Jesus who came after many other Jewish prophets. Jesus was the last prophet for the Jews. (I am telling the Muslims point of view here now). Jesus was the Promised Masiha of the Jews for whom they were waiting. he came to them at the right time at the right place. he tried to guide the Jews to bring them close to God. But they rejected him.

It happens like that. Many a prophets before Jesus were rejected by their own people. Jesus himself said " A prophet is never respected in his own country" (Some words to that effect.) So it happened that Jesus was rejected. He did his best for his people. Some people who were good at heart followed Jesus and loved him. But the Jewish elders who felt their superiority being challenged and their superior position going to waste, they were jealous.

Those became the enemies of Jesus. Yet there were many who loved Jesus. Some were staunch followers of Jesus. Jesus taught and preached the message that he Got from God care of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was assisted (Aided) by the Holy Spirit.

It was not Moses who distorted the words of the bibleOT.It was not the prophets who came after Moses. It was not Jesus who distorted the words of the BibleNT. He gave all correct message. It was rememebred and put in writing later on. But a stime passed, people made their own interpretations. That is not the fault of Jesus or Moses.

Not all the words of bible are changed. Only some parts have been re-written. Any one can see the difference in bibleOT and BibleNT. The Jews had felt the difference and the Jews of today can tell the difference. The message is from the same God.So there should be no difference.

The Muslims have the Last Book with them, complete in same old words. But they have differed in its understanding, its interpretations.

Distortion is always of two types:

1. Distortions in the original words.
2. Distortions in the interpretations.

The bible OT and NT has gone through some distortions of both types. The Quran has gone through only one distortion.**

 

[MelanieAnne]

Thanks Planten for your thoughtful reply.

In the end, however, while of course Holy Scripture is important, we Christians at least need to remember that Jesus didn’t come to write a book, He came to save us. He came to offer Himself up as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. And that is precisely what He did.

It is to be hoped that while some people find a need to fuss over this or that interpretation, or types of distortions or whatever, that the sacrifice of Jesus for all our sins is the central point of all of this, and is infinitely more important than any of these other concerns.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The Old Testament describes how Prophet Moses (pbuh) believed his people would corrupt the stipulations in the Old Testament after he had gone, and felt the need to protect the book:

After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and Earth to testify against them. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made. (Deuteronomy, 31:24-29)

It needs to be made immediately clear that the people in question, who rejected the true faith preached by Prophet Moses (pbuh) and thus chose the path of degeneration, were dishonest and self-interested individuals.

You are presenting eisegesis. Nowhere is that saying all of scripture will be tarnished to the point where God will have to send down another book - there wasn’t even an Old Testament at that time. What Moses is describing is that the Jewish people will fall away as a society and not do what God commands them - the scripture and beliefs as they are known will be preserved, but the people will ignore them. Archeological finds such as the Dead Sea Scrolls have represented this to a large degree.

Incidentally, Mohammad said this about Muslims - that they would go astray in large numbers after his time.

Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet said, “The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter. After that there will come some people whose witness will go ahead of their oaths, and their oaths will go ahead of their witness.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 820]

So I suppose, according to your interpretation of what these words mean, the Koran is now corrupt because Mohammad said Muslims would start going astray.

The fact is that eventually the Jews as a society did go astray, but this was not met by sending down another book, but by sending down the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins and the purification of man to return to the presence of God once again.

How can you say the OT was corrupt when you compare it to the quran?

Islamic apologetics often use this form of circular logic - anything that agrees with the Koran is right, anything that disagrees with it is wrong. Hence eisegesis of the Bible.

 

[planten]

Coming back to the topic:

Is Bible Corrupted By Human, Did God Knew That It Going To Happened

**Surely God knows everything. God knew about it and told it to Moses a.s. Otherwise Moses could not know it and tell his people.

A similar bad news is given to the Muslims too, from Muhammad. That they will do every bad thing that the earlier nations had done…**

 

[sedonaman]

**

Thanks, you have admitted human intervention. Improvement in the words of God is not needed. It further proves that the bible NT is not is not the word of God. It is the words of men only and they need to be improved by men daily. That is why so many different versions are coming out.

The corruption is being done in the name of correction. What we have in the bible NT now does not tell anything true about the life history of Jesus. People have changed many things.

The bible OT is more reliable. But Shaikh sahib has proved by the quotes from the bible OT that Moses had predicted the corruption. The corruption is usually in two ways. The literal word changing, addition and extraction of words into the sacred scripture.
Also mis-interpretation of the sacred words. In the bible, both types of corruption has taken place. The Quran confirms that Moses was given a book Torah and Jesus was given Injeel. But the Quran also tells us that the Jews and Christians made alterations in their books. It is written in the Quran that many changes had been made in the sacred books.

The entire bible OT and NT have not been maltreated. There is plenty of knowledge and truth in them even now**.

How could corrupted books validate Mohammed as he claims they do?

 

[North_of_Nod]

If I am not mistaken, the Dead Sea Scrolls already proved that the OT is 95% free of variations, with the remaining 5% from a few differences in lettering styles (which has no effect on meaning). Those were found in the 1940s after thousands of years of sitting in caves.

Pax.

 

[anjoh66]

Hello Christians Friend I would like to show you Deuteronomy 31:24-29.

24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying:
26 "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
27 a"for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD, then how much more after my death?
28 "Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
29 “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.”

Note: Well this verses shows that Bible is not in a original form. Any comments please feel free to talk in this thread.

Everytime a muslim raises his voice saying that the bible is corrupt it all becomes really pathetic.
They are pointing to some verses out of context and comparing those with other verses, then draws the conclusion that the bible is corrupt without even having understood what the read.

Secondly, how can you support your claim from a book that is suppossed to be corrupt?

They can never point out what, when and why the bible was corrupted.

 

[sedonaman]

**

Thanks, you have admitted human intervention. Improvement in the words of God is not needed. It further proves that the bible NT is not is not the word of God. It is the words of men only and they need to be improved by men daily. That is why so many different versions are coming out.

The corruption is being done in the name of correction. What we have in the bible NT now does not tell anything true about the life history of Jesus. People have changed many things.

…
**.

Re: Claim the Bible was corrupted

“…This foregoing analysis has presented only one example7 of how the author(s) of the Qur’an played with and corrupted the historical records for the purpose of developing more and stronger similarities and cross connections between various stories in their literary composition. This sort of a writing style also reveals the clear motivation that the composers of the Qur’an had for their changes in these stories, which resulted in the perversion of the historical truth. On the other hand, the Muslim charge of corruption of the Torah is without substance since there is neither evidence nor any discernable motivation for it.”

answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/moses_joseph.html

 

[jakasaki]

Re: Claim the Bible was corrupted

“…This foregoing analysis has presented only one example7 of how the author(s) of the Qur’an played with and corrupted the historical records for the purpose of developing more and stronger similarities and cross connections between various stories in their literary composition. This sort of a writing style also reveals the clear motivation that the composers of the Qur’an had for their changes in these stories, which resulted in the perversion of the historical truth. On the other hand, the Muslim charge of corruption of the Torah is without substance since there is neither evidence nor any discernable motivation for it.”

answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/moses_joseph.html

It’s amazing that our Bible is so corrupted, words written by men, yet our muslim members just keep on quoting verses from it… It blows my mind.!!!

 

[sedonaman]

**

Thanks, you have admitted human intervention. Improvement in the words of God is not needed. It further proves that the bible NT is not is not the word of God. It is the words of men only and they need to be improved by men daily. That is why so many different versions are coming out.
…
**

Proof the Qur’an is not the word of God … or Allah:
“The 1972 discovery of the earliest surviving Qur’anic manuscripts in the Great Mosque of Sana’a conclusively shows that the present Qur’an is different from the early manuscripts. It proves the Islamic claim – that the Qur’an is infallibility, that it is Allah’s original revelation word by word, and that it is copy of the version kept in a tablet in heaven – outright false.”
islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40:ancient-Qur’anic-manuscripts-of-sanaa-spell-downfall-of-islam&catid=18:sujit

Since the “proof” that the Qur’an relies on is its remaining unchanged and unchangeable, the discovery of a Qur’an different from today’s proves that it is not the word of God or Allah, take your pick. It is the words of men only and they need to be improved by men daily. That is why so many different versions are coming out.

 

[sedonaman]

It’s amazing that our Bible is so corrupted, words written by men, yet our muslim members just keep on quoting verses from it… It blows my mind.!!!

Yes. Mohammed needed it to validate himself. Without it, he’s just one more figure claiming prophethood. Since he relied on a corrupt document to validate himself, he must be corrupted as well and should be rejected by right reason.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

It’s amazing that our Bible is so corrupted, words written by men, yet our muslim members just keep on quoting verses from it… It blows my mind.!!!

That’s because that’s how the founders of their religion argued

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). [S. 3:3]

Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:
'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said, "O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur’an ) which has been revealed to you. [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 614]

I always enjoy quoting this hadith because, even though it refers to the Jews and Christians, it describes Muslim apologetics so well:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
They, the people of the Scriptures, divided this Scripture into parts, believing in some portions of it and disbelieving the others. [Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 281]

 

[MelanieAnne]

Yes. Mohammed needed it to validate himself. Without it, he’s just one more figure claiming prophethood. Since he relied on a corrupt document to validate himself, he must be corrupted as well and should be rejected by right reason.

I agree. It’s sad that some people, in order to feel justified in what they believe, need to find fault with the beliefs of others. When religions are FOUNDED on this premise, it is clear that there is a big problem. Adherents of such faiths must, of necessity, abandon reason. Why do some people need to find corruption in others to justify themselves? I submit that it is because they are unsure.

Both Islam and Mormonism were founded on the basis that other faiths were corrupt, but that is not the only parallel between the two faiths. Both faiths are false, in my opinion (and my opinion is just that, and most would consider the opinion of one person of little value) but that does not change the fact that Jesus made His sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, including Muslims, including Mormons, including everyone.

God wants all of us to come home. He has provided a Way. It is up to us to choose the Way and reject mis-direction. God is a God of reason and consistency. That’s a clue.

 

[abucs]

If the bible was corrupt, why didn’t the angel Gabriel tell Muhammad it was corrupt ?

Why is it that some modern day muslims say this but God, through Gabriel did not ?

If the whole idea of Islam is to correct where the Christians went wrong, why is God/Gabriel/Muhammad/early Islam/the koran silent on these corruptions ?

Why does God/Gabriel/Muhammad/early Islam/the koran say that if people are unsure what is being said they should consult the people of the book ?

A corrupt book ? They should consult the people of a corrupt book ?

Why does the Koran continue to respect the people of the book.

Respect a people of a corrupt book ?

Respect a people who corrupted God’s word ?

Why doesn’t God/Gabriel/Muhammad/early Islam/the koran once tell us this book is corrupt and tell us where, or who corrupted it or when it was corrupted ?

No, for that we have some modern day muslims with a collection of their own thoughts to tell us that without the slightest evidence at all.

Are they better than God/Gabriel/Muhammad.early Islam/the koran ?

Were they there ?

We have many, many, many copies of the bible from before the time of Muhammad.

If God came to create a new religion why does the koran respect ‘the book’, a book according to some modern muslims that was corrupted.

Does God respect a corrupted book or a group of people who corrupted his word ?

It doesn’t make sense, unless of course you realise that God does not make mistakes, but the early Muslims who accepted the koran - did.