Is Billy Graham Saved? (Merged with Billy Graham thread.)

[DavidFilmer]

Billy Graham may call himself a Catholic theologian (though I don’t think he has ever exercised this right). He received an honorary degree in theology from Belmont Abbey College near his hometown of Charlotte, NC (I once lived in Charlotte, and I learned of this when I once visited Belmont). The Church allows someone to claim the title “Catholic theologian” if they hold a degree (even an honorary degree) from a Catholic seminary (Belmont was a seminary at the time, though it no longer is) and does not teach doctrine overtly opposed to Catholic truth. Billy Graham tends to teach a more generic Christian message - I have never heard him teach anything that I (as a Catholic) disagreed with.

So how about that? Billy Graham, Catholic Theologian!

 

[DavidFilmer]

Like all Evangelical Christians, Billy Graham has received valid Christian Baptism. He was saved at that moment (had he died right then, he would be in heaven right now).

The ONLY way that he could lose his salvation is by mortal sin. It is not a mortal sin to NOT receive valid Eucharist if you don’t know you’re supposed to do that (nobody can sin without knowing it). So whether he has received Eucharist is irrelevant, since he is not aware of its importance. (remember, he has received what he considers to be “Communion” (grape juice and crackers) which, in his mind, fulfills his obligation to participate in the Lord’s Supper.)

He cannot commit mortal sin without knowing it. That is the doctrine of the Church.

If he dies without having committed mortal sin, he goes to heaven. That is the doctrine of the Church.

I believe it is possible for protestants to avoid mortal sin (though this is my opinion only - the Church has no teaching one way or another). If it is possible for protestants, Billy Graham ought to be at the head of the line. From what I can tell, he is just about the closest thing to a canonized Saint as protestants have. Had he applied his talents as a Catholic, I believe his Cause would be advanced shortly after his death.

FWIW, I feel the same way about C.S. Lewis.

 

[steve_b]

But as Mr. Martignoni actually pointed out, we have a better chance of going to heaven by receiving the Holy Eucharist. This truth is indisputable. “The Eucharist is ‘the source and summit of the Christian life’” (CCC 1324). It is the greatest source of sanctifying grace which the soul needs to enter heaven. Also, it is true that no human being, including the Pope when he canonizes someone a saint, infallibly knows whether a person has gone to heaven. This knowledge is simply based on moral certainty. Only God can judge the interior heart of a person. The role of the Church is to preach the word of God and administer the sacraments. She has no prerogative, let alone capability, to infallibly judge our souls.
PAX

Here’s something to consider

When JPII canonized Edith Stein, the words he used were

**"For the honour of the Blessed Trinity, the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the fostering of the Christian life, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayers for the divine assistance, and having sought the counsel of our Brother Bishops,**we declare and define that Bl. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, Edith Stein, is a saint and we enrol her among the saints, decreeing that she is to be venerated in the whole Church as one of the saints. In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

When we look at the definition of infallibility (all emphasis mine)

:

we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,

• that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
• Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm

when we compare the words JPII used in that canonization, and the language necessary for defining an infallible statement, JPII made an infallible statement. And no one can undo what he did there.

Further considering, we know for a person to even be considered for canonization, not only is their life thoroughly examined, but miracles after their death, need to be verified as a result of their intercession. The affirmation of miracles by a person’s intercession after they have died, is considered evidence they ARE in heaven.

 

[steve_b]

Billy Graham may call himself a Catholic theologian

Nonsense.
D:

He received an honorary degree in theology from Belmont Abbey College near his hometown of Charlotte, NC (I once lived in Charlotte, and I learned of this when I once visited Belmont). The Church allows someone to claim the title “Catholic theologian” if they hold a degree (even an honorary degree) from a Catholic seminary (Belmont was a seminary at the time, though it no longer is) and does not teach doctrine overtly opposed to Catholic truth. Billy Graham tends to teach a more generic Christian message - I have never heard him teach anything that I (as a Catholic) disagreed with.

So how about that? Billy Graham, Catholic Theologian!

“Perhaps it is unnecessary to say so, but a Catholic theologian is a Catholic. He is a member of the Catholic Church and professes the beliefs of the Catholic Faith. This is a minimum, but necessary requirement.”

ewtn.com/library/Theology/THEOLCH.HTM

Billy Graham is no Catholic.

 

[8mby7we]

The bible tells us, in Roman’s 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord”, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. This is what Billy Graham teaches. This is what Billy Graham lives. Salvation in Jesus. Is Billy Graham saved? I’d say so, unless he’s been living and preaching a lie for over 90 years. Roman’s 8:1 says, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirt of life set me FREE from the law of sin and death.” Praise God? For God sent his son to be our Sin Offering. All we have to do is to accept this free gift from God. See, it is not about being good enough to make it to heaven. No one can ever be good enough. If that were true, Christ would not have had to die on the cross for our sins. The scripture in John 6:53 is not talking literally. As if we are cannibals. Think about it. If we were to literally take Jesus’ flesh and eat it, then wouldn’t we also excrete him as well? Yuk. It is talking figuretively. We are to take Jesus into our hearts, into our “holy of holies” as we are the temple of the living God. We, who have confessed Jesus as our Savior, are the tabernacle of God, replacing the tabernacle in the wilderness where only Aaron, the high priest and his Levite descendents could reach God. But when Christ gave up his spirit, on the cross, the veil (of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle) was torn, giving us access to God through the shed blood of Christ. Amen!

 

[steve_b]

The Catholic Church deep sixed the notion that only Catholic’s go to heaven years ago. Thank God.

Do you have a reference?

 

[steve_b]

The bible tells us, in Roman’s 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord”, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. This is what Billy Graham teaches. This is what Billy Graham lives. Salvation in Jesus. Is Billy Graham saved? I’d say so, unless he’s been living and preaching a lie for over 90 years.

Romans was written to the Church of Rome. That promise in Rom 10:9 is made to people in the Church, not outside of the Church. One can’t confess Jesus is Lord, and be divided from His Church. The Church Protestants in their 16th century DNA, are divided from. An action Paul condemned 6 chapters later [Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16). Do you see what’s going on there? People who are divided from or causing division from the Church, do NOT serve Our Lord Jesus but their own selfish appetites. When Paul says stay away from them, THOSE people can’t claim Jesus is Lord of their life. If He was Lord of them, they would be in His Church

One can’t isolate Rom 10:9 for themselves when they are NOT in the Church. One can’t wrench text(s) out of context creating one’s own pretext and expect to make points on that.
8:

Roman’s 8:1 says, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirt of life set me FREE from the law of sin and death.” Praise God?

Ahhhh, another summary statement taken out of context. When Paul says people who are divided from the Church not only do NOT serve Our Lord, but they serve their own selfish appetites, the folks Paul is talking about in Rom 8:1 is written to those in the Church and obedient to the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith.
8:

For God sent his son to be our Sin Offering. All we have to do is to accept this free gift from God. See, it is not about being good enough to make it to heaven. No one can ever be good enough. If that were true, Christ would not have had to die on the cross for our sins.

Where in scripture does it say, “all we have to do is accept this free gift” and nothing else is required of us? Where in scripture does it say Jesus died for our sins so we don’t have to be good…or even be good enough?
8:

The scripture in John 6:53 is not talking literally. As if we are cannibals. Think about it. If we were to literally take Jesus’ flesh and eat it, then wouldn’t we also excrete him as well? Yuk. It is talking figuretively. We are to take Jesus into our hearts, into our “holy of holies” as we are the temple of the living God. We, who have confessed Jesus as our Savior, are the tabernacle of God, replacing the tabernacle in the wilderness where only Aaron, the high priest and his Levite descendents could reach God. But when Christ gave up his spirit, on the cross, the veil (of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle) was torn, giving us access to God through the shed blood of Christ. Amen!

If Jesus was speaking figuratively/symbolically,

• why was it a hard teaching (cf vs60)
• why did so many feel compelled to leave him over this hard teaching cf vs66?
• if they left because they misunderstood his figurative/symbolic meaning for a literal one (which I think you would admit IS a hard teaching), why after all the times when he told a second parable when it was clear that people hadn’t grasped the first, or took his disciples aside for further clarification, did He just let them go? (v 66)
• If Jesus’ only message was that they were to believe in Him (an easy message to understand), why would He do nothing to clarify, but instead turn up the volume, irritating His disciples even more, to the point of loss of faith in Him and choosing to no longer follow Him?
• Then there’s **1 Corinthians 11:27 **"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord." and then there’s vs[29] For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

If the Eucharist is only symbolic/figurative, which it is NOT, then how could one eat and drink condemnation on themselves with something that is just symbolic? They can’t.! That’s the point.

When Paul wrote that warning, he did so under the inspiration of the HS.[John 14:25-26 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 14) , and since the HS receives that from Jesus [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) , then it’s Jesus again, stressing through the HS, through Paul, His real presence, not a symbolic or figurative one, but His real presence, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

 

[Doxiemom]

The bible tells us, in Roman’s 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord”, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. This is what Billy Graham teaches. This is what Billy Graham lives. Salvation in Jesus. Is Billy Graham saved? I’d say so, unless he’s been living and preaching a lie for over 90 years. Roman’s 8:1 says, “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirt of life set me FREE from the law of sin and death.” Praise God? For God sent his son to be our Sin Offering. All we have to do is to accept this free gift from God. See, it is not about being good enough to make it to heaven. No one can ever be good enough. If that were true, Christ would not have had to die on the cross for our sins. The scripture in John 6:53 is not talking literally. As if we are cannibals. Think about it. If we were to literally take Jesus’ flesh and eat it, then wouldn’t we also excrete him as well? Yuk. It is talking figuretively. We are to take Jesus into our hearts, into our “holy of holies” as we are the temple of the living God. We, who have confessed Jesus as our Savior, are the tabernacle of God, replacing the tabernacle in the wilderness where only Aaron, the high priest and his Levite descendents could reach God. But when Christ gave up his spirit, on the cross, the veil (of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle) was torn, giving us access to God through the shed blood of Christ. Amen!

Amen to that. Thank you Jesus

 

[Doxiemom]

Romans was written to the Church of Rome. That promise in Rom 10:9 is made to people in the Church, not outside of the Church. One can’t confess Jesus is Lord, and be divided from His Church. The Church Protestants in their 16th century DNA, are divided from. An action Paul condemned 6 chapters later [Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16). Do you see what’s going on there? People who are divided from or causing division from the Church, do NOT serve Our Lord Jesus but their own selfish appetites. When Paul says stay away from them, THOSE people can’t claim Jesus is Lord of their life. If He was Lord of them, they would be in His Church

One can’t isolate Rom 10:9 for themselves when they are NOT in the Church. One can’t wrench text(s) out of context creating one’s own pretext and expect to make points on that.

Ahhhh, another summary statement taken out of context. When Paul says people who are divided from the Church not only do NOT serve Our Lord, but they serve their own selfish appetites, the folks Paul is talking about in Rom 8:1 is written to those in the Church and obedient to the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith.

Where in scripture does it say, “all we have to do is accept this free gift” and nothing else is required of us? Where in scripture does it say Jesus died for our sins so we don’t have to be good…or even be good enough?

If Jesus was speaking figuratively/symbolically,

• why was it a hard teaching (cf vs60)
• why did so many feel compelled to leave him over this hard teaching cf vs66?
• if they left because they misunderstood his figurative/symbolic meaning for a literal one (which I think you would admit IS a hard teaching), why after all the times when he told a second parable when it was clear that people hadn’t grasped the first, or took his disciples aside for further clarification, did He just let them go? (v 66)
• If Jesus’ only message was that they were to believe in Him (an easy message to understand), why would He do nothing to clarify, but instead turn up the volume, irritating His disciples even more, to the point of loss of faith in Him and choosing to no longer follow Him?
• Then there’s **1 Corinthians 11:27 **"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord." and then there’s vs[29] For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

If the Eucharist is only symbolic/figurative, which it is NOT, then how could one eat and drink condemnation on themselves with something that is just symbolic? They can’t.! That’s the point.

When Paul wrote that warning, he did so under the inspiration of the HS.[John 14:25-26 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 14) , and since the HS receives that from Jesus [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) , then it’s Jesus again, stressing through the HS, through Paul, His real presence, not a symbolic or figurative one, but His real presence, body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist.

“Those people”???

Aren’t you just filled with a spirit of mean and cloaking it in righteousness.

 

[steve_b]

“Those people”???

Aren’t you just filled with a spirit of mean and cloaking it in righteousness.

Look up how many times “those” is used in this thread and any other thread. What does “those” refer to? It’s refering predominately to “people.” Sometimes it’s things being refered to but mostly it’s to people

in this case, Paul made a certain distinction between people. And since he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which means the HS was teaching Paul what he received from Jesus, then it’s actually Jesus making the distinction. And notice what Paul said? Stay away from THEM! Stay away from who? Those people who cause division in and from the Church. [Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16) What Church? The Church Jesus established and promised to build [Matthew 16:13-19 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 16) , the one and only Church the apostles are building on.

And as it says in Galatians, the consequence for one who divides and remains divided from the Church, will not inherit heaven when they die. [Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5) (division being one of the sins listed) and there is no expiration date on that warning. iow, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Just for a little history

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"

iow the Church ] throughout all kata holos] is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole.

• St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven
• St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church”
• Muratorian canon
• Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]
• Cyprian~250 a.d.
• The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
• etc etc etc

The same Church Pope Francis is over today, 266th successor to St Peter and the same Church Protestants broke from in the 16th century

 

[8mby7we]

Honey, first of all, we need to define the meaning of “church”. It does not mean an institution like the Catholic church. The word “church” in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from 2 Greek words meaning “an assembly” and “to call out” or “called out ones”. The New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as His people under the authority of Jesus Christ (see Espesians 1:22-23).The group of believers or “the body of Christ”, (the Bride) began in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit. And by “believers” I mean those who have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord.

I did not isolate Romans 10:9 at all. Jesus was talking to the believers in Rome who were predominately Gentile but also included a minority of Jews. You have to remember that Christ died for ALL sinners. All people. In John 3:16, a scripture that most know so well, it says that "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that WHOMSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. God first came to the Israelites, the Jews, with this message of salvation. It was prophesied by Isaiah, in the OT, the coming of Jesus. Read Isaiah 53. When Jesus did come, look at who he chose to be his 12 disciples. They were 12 ordinary men from all different backgrounds. Some were rich, well to do. Some were poor. So were well schooled, could read, some could not. Some were Jews and some were Gentiles. He used ALL types to get his message of Salvation out to the people he died for.

You also asked me “Where in scripture does it say, “all we have to do is accept this free gift” and nothing else is required of us? …the Jesus died for our sins so we do’t have to be good or even be good enough.?” Well, first of all, I never said that we don’t have to be good. What I said was that we don’t have to be good in order to be saved. Big difference. This “free Gift” from God is his son shedding his blood on the cross for our sins. THAT’s the gift. And it’s FREE. Meaning that we can’t buy it. We can’t earn it. Scripture says that “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 8:5. Meaning that we didn’t need to “clean up our act” first in order for God to save us. Don’t you see, if we had to BE GOOD FIRST, then our salvation would be hinged on our self as well as on God. And that’s false. In Eph 2:8 it says, "For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD; Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.

As far as “being good”, those are the attributes of a Christian that we should strive for everyday, to be more like Jesus. Colossians 1:10-11b says, “That you may live a life WORTHY of the Lord and may please Him in every way; bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might.”

Take care and God Bless you as you learn and grow in His word. Amen? Have a great day.

Jody

 

[jmcrae]

Honey, first of all, we need to define the meaning of “church”.

Done. The Council of Nicea, which was that group of Bishops who were elected by the whole of the Christian world to gather together to define issues of importance in 325 AD defined the Church as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. The Successor of Peter is its earthly head, and it is comprised of all who are in visible union with him.

It does not mean an institution like the Catholic church. The word “church” in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from 2 Greek words meaning “an assembly” and “to call out” or “called out ones”. The New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as His people under the authority of Jesus Christ (see Espesians 1:22-23).The group of believers or “the body of Christ”, (the Bride) began in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit. And by “believers” I mean those who have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord.

Where does this definition come from? And by what authority is it given?

Because you’re right - it’s essential to our salvation that we know what the Church is, so that we can belong to it.

This is how the Bible and the Early Church defined the Church:

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"

iow the Church ἐκκλησία , τῆς] throughout all καθ’kata ὅληςholos] is the Kataholos Church = Catholic ChurchThe English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, from ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, he wrote about Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæans of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
Muratorian canon earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html
Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses [Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3
Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
Augustine ~395 And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
etc
The same Church Pope Francis is over today, 266th successor to St Peter.

any division is against the Divine Will John 17:20-23

 

[fallow_spirit]

Honey, first of all, we need to define the meaning of “church”. It does not mean an institution like the Catholic church. The word “church” in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from 2 Greek words meaning “an assembly” and “to call out” or “called out ones”. The New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as His people under the authority of Jesus Christ (see Espesians 1:22-23).The group of believers or “the body of Christ”, (the Bride) began in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit. And by “believers” I mean those who have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord.

I did not isolate Romans 10:9 at all. Jesus was talking to the believers in Rome who were predominately Gentile but also included a minority of Jews. You have to remember that Christ died for ALL sinners. All people. In John 3:16, a scripture that most know so well, it says that "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that WHOMSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. God first came to the Israelites, the Jews, with this message of salvation. It was prophesied by Isaiah, in the OT, the coming of Jesus. Read Isaiah 53. When Jesus did come, look at who he chose to be his 12 disciples. They were 12 ordinary men from all different backgrounds. Some were rich, well to do. Some were poor. So were well schooled, could read, some could not. Some were Jews and some were Gentiles. He used ALL types to get his message of Salvation out to the people he died for.

You also asked me “Where in scripture does it say, “all we have to do is accept this free gift” and nothing else is required of us? …the Jesus died for our sins so we do’t have to be good or even be good enough.?” Well, first of all, I never said that we don’t have to be good. What I said was that we don’t have to be good in order to be saved. Big difference. This “free Gift” from God is his son shedding his blood on the cross for our sins. THAT’s the gift. And it’s FREE. Meaning that we can’t buy it. We can’t earn it. Scripture says that “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 8:5. Meaning that we didn’t need to “clean up our act” first in order for God to save us. Don’t you see, if we had to BE GOOD FIRST, then our salvation would be hinged on our self as well as on God. And that’s false. In Eph 2:8 it says, "For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD; Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast.

As far as “being good”, those are the attributes of a Christian that we should strive for everyday, to be more like Jesus. Colossians 1:10-11b says, “That you may live a life WORTHY of the Lord and may please Him in every way; bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might.”

Take care and God Bless you as you learn and grow in His word. Amen? Have a great day.

Jody

I’m not going to try and respond to what you’ve said Jody, just ask a question: Are you Catholic? Because your profile says you’re Catholic, but from your posts you sound more like an evangelical Protestant. So don’t you think you should clarify that in your profile? I mean, if you go to a Catholic Church and still identify as a Catholic then that’s okay, but don’t you think you should clarify that you don’t agree with all the Church’s teachings? Because people reading your profile are going to think you do, when it is obvious that you do not agree with everything the CC teaches. Not trying to be rude or anything though.

 

[steve_b]

Honey,

:tiphat:
8:

I did not isolate Romans 10:9 at all. Jesus was talking to the believers in Rome who were predominately Gentile but also included a minority of Jews.

Paul was talking to the Church of Rome. They are established , and their faith has been reported all over the world [Rom 1:1-13].
8:

You have to remember that Christ died for ALL sinners. All people. In John 3:16, a scripture that most know so well, it says that "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that WHOMSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

“Believe in Him” isn’t some intellectual ascent. John means, do EVERYTHING He commands. That’s what Paul means by obedience of faith. When Paul 1st mentions faith in Romans, he complements the Church of Rome on their obedience of faith. [Rom 1:5] and the particulars of what that means is revealed throughout scripture and Tradition.

BTW Tradition is absolutely authoritative both oral and written. **2 Thes 2:15 **
8:

You also asked me “Where in scripture does it say, “all we have to do is accept this free gift” and nothing else is required of us? …the Jesus died for our sins so we do’t have to be good or even be good enough.?” Well, first of all, I never said that we don’t have to be good. What **I said **was that we don’t have to be good in order to be saved.

protestant speak confuses things.
8:

Big difference. This “free Gift” from God is his son shedding his blood on the cross for our sins. THAT’s the gift. And it’s FREE. Meaning that we can’t buy it. We can’t earn it. Scripture says that “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 8:5. Meaning that we didn’t need to “clean up our act” first in order for God to save us. Don’t you see, if we had to BE GOOD FIRST, then our salvation would be hinged on our self as well as on God. And that’s false. In **Eph 2:8 it says, "For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD; Not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. **

Why don’t protestants ever finish it?

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If one doesn’t do what they are created to do they get cut down and thrown away [Luke 13:6-9 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 13)
8:

As far as “being good”, those are the attributes of a Christian that we should strive for everyday, to be more like Jesus. Colossians 1:10-11b says, “That you may live a life WORTHY of the Lord and may please Him in every way; bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might.”

Take care and God Bless you as you learn and grow in His word. Amen? Have a great day.

Jody

Jody,

The NT was written in, by, for the Catholic Church. These writings you quote, were not given to joe six pak out there in Judea. These writings were written to the one and only Church that is there. If people outside the Church are excited about the promises they find in these writings, they need to join the Church these are written to and for. One can’t be on the outside of the Church looking in, and expect those goodies are theirs too even though they are not in or even divided from the Church these promises are written to and for.

For clarification, here’s an example.

[Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16) One who causes division or divides from the Church, doesn’t serve our Lord but their own selfish appetites. Paul says stay away from them. It also presumes one needs to be in the one Church and stay in the one Church, not go off into some sect.

[Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5) there’s a list of sins one being division from the Church. The consequence is they won’t inherit heaven when they die.

• There is no expiration to that warning. It’s forever.
• It’s as applicable a warning and consequence in the 1st century as a warning against Luther, and Calvin, and Henry VIII, etc etc, in the 16th century, as it is in the 21st century for all the consequences of all that division broungt on by Protestantism, as it is forever! Division is against the Divine Will. [John 17:20-23 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 17) I say this for your own welfare.

If you haven’t done so already, I would suggest reading Church history from primary sources. Not what people say about the primary sources. But the primary authors themselves. Have you read any of the Early Church Fathers (ECF’s) ? newadvent.org/fathers/

Have a nice day as well

 

[8mby7we]

To clarify, I was born and raised and baptized a Catholic.Made all the sacraments; 1st communion and confirmation. But it wasn’t until someone started asking me questions about what i believed in and why that I picked up a bible to find my answers. The more i read, the more i realized I didn’t know. And the more questions I had the more I tried to seek answers, including going to my priest. I still was not satisfied with his answers. So I started to study the Catholic church including it’s origins. And what I started to find out, contradicted the bible. So I brought this to my priest asking him why it contradicted the bible. For example, Catholics believe in purgatory, yet the bible tells us in 2 Cor. 5:8 “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” There is no 'holding" place any longer. There was, but it was called paradise where the prophets of old, like Abraham, went to when he died. And it was during the time that Jesus died on the cross and his Resurrection that the bible says (Eph.4:9) that he went to set the captives free (those who believed in him) and to take the very keys to hell away from Satan. Otherwise, how could we ever claim to have victory over death? And now it is empty and there is no longer a need for it. And that’s why it says (when speaking to the believers, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Anyway, my priest said that the Catechism was written by Pope John Paul II in 1985 and became the official text of reference. And that it can “over rule” the bible when it seems contradictory. I said, but why did we need another authoritative text? Why wasn’t the bible good enough? And thus began my journey away from Catholicism and man-made laws. Jesus is all I needed. I love the word of God. I love studying the scriptures in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I am standing on the promises of God that if I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, I will be saved. I have that assurance. And I have the peace of God. For the bible tell me that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truths.

I am sorry that I put on my profile that I was Catholic. I was. But I am now a Born again, spirit filled child of God. I do believe that the bible, Old and New Testaments were written for ALL people. Not just the Catholics. That is so very presumptuous to think that. Remember, it was writtened and intended, originally, for the Jews. Not the Catholics. MAN puts all these extra rules and regulations and divisions on rtheir eligions, separating people. Walls and divisions and that’s why people can’t get along. First of all, I didn’t know anyone can read your profile. I thought it was only for the one who set up this web-site. (I am not very computer savey) And 2ndly, if I told you I was not Catholic any longer that you would not allow me to share with you. And I didn’t want there to be walls up between us. Obviously you all love the Lord and have accepted him as your savior. Why can’t we share that which we have in common and leave our differences aside? But perhaps we can’t. Which is too bad. I still enjoyed sharing with you all and thank you for letting me talk. God bless you. Jody

 

[jmcrae]

To clarify, I was born and raised and baptized a Catholic.Made all the sacraments; 1st communion and confirmation. But it wasn’t until someone started asking me questions about what i believed in and why that I picked up a bible to find my answers. The more i read, the more i realized I didn’t know. And the more questions I had the more I tried to seek answers, including going to my priest. I still was not satisfied with his answers. So I started to study the Catholic church including it’s origins. And what I started to find out, contradicted the bible. So I brought this to my priest asking him why it contradicted the bible. For example, Catholics believe in purgatory, yet the bible tells us in 2 Cor. 5:8 “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

Read it again. That’s not what it says. It says, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” He is talking about martyrdom (being killed for the Faith) - he is not saying that everyone who dies goes immediately to Heaven. (That would be ridiculous - unbelievers don’t go to Heaven, and yet they do become absent from their bodies when they die.)

There is lots of Scriptural support for the Doctrine of Purgatory. Start here to learn more.

 

[DavidFilmer]

“Perhaps it is unnecessary to say so, but a Catholic theologian is a Catholic. He is a member of the Catholic Church and professes the beliefs of the Catholic Faith. This is a minimum, but necessary requirement.”

ewtn.com/library/Theology/THEOLCH.HTM

Billy Graham is no Catholic.

True. But an article in Wikipedia lists

Pages in category “American Roman Catholic theologians”

The list is preceded by an uncited comment:

If you want a current list of US Catholic theologians, see the membership directory of the Catholic Theological Society of America and the Catholic Biblical Association of America. caveat: there are a few non-catholic members in both.

You can’t believe everything you read in Wikipedia, but I do recall some years ago some controversy regarding a professor at a Catholic university (who had actually received a licencte from the Bishop, but was not a Catholic). It might have been at Notre Dame. But, whatever it was, I do remember that this was the first time I had ever heard that a “Catholic theologian” does not necessarily need to be a Catholic (though, of course, this is expected to be the norm - but there is always the extraordinary (ie, not ordinary) case).

 

[steve_b]

I started to study the Catholic church including it’s origins. And what I started to find out, contradicted the bible.

Like what
8:

So I brought this to my priest asking him why it contradicted the bible. For example, Catholics believe in purgatory, yet the bible tells us in 2 Cor. 5:8 “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” There is no 'holding" place any longer.

that’s not an accurate quote.

Here’s the real quote.

2 Cor 5:6-9 So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are of good courage, and **we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. **

do you really think that disproves Purgatory? And how about vs 9-10.

whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10* For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

Depending on what protestant sect one belongs to, those verses can reak havoc on various protestant groups and their theology.

I know you didn’t come up with this argument yourself. You merely repeated what you heard and didn’t check if it’s accurate. But I also say, Don’t blame the priest for not giving you the answer you wanted to hear. You were operating under preconceived error based on a corrupted verse
8:

And it was during the time that Jesus died on the cross and his Resurrection that the bible says (Eph.4:9) that he went to set the captives free (those who believed in him) and to take the very keys to hell away from Satan.

The Keys were to the kingdom of heaven, and binding and loosing that Jesus gave to Peter. Matthew 16:13-19 . As to the gates of hell, the Church Jesus established, the Catholic Church, has the power against those gates.

Re: Immediately after Jesus died he went to preach to the souls in prison, going back to Noah. 1 Pet 3:18-20.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is the NT purification for only the saved.
8:

Otherwise, how could we ever claim to have victory over death? And now it is empty and there is no longer a need for it.

See what happens when passages you quote have been corrupted? You have corrupt conclusions, because those who taught you are in error. And error begets error.
8:

And that’s why it says (when speaking to the believers, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Anyway, my priest said that the Catechism was written by Pope John Paul II in 1985 and became the official text of reference. And that it can “over rule” the bible when it seems contradictory.

I don’t believe the priest said that, the way you took it… Your quote is not accurate, and I’ve heard it said the way you write it, tons of times by protestants on these threads.
8:

I said, but why did we need another authoritative text? Why wasn’t the bible good enough? And thus began my journey away from Catholicism and man-made laws.

Tradition is both oral and written. Both are authoritative. Neither is alone, and it’s not either / or but BOTH are authoritative.

And let’s not forget the Catholic Church is the pillar and foundation of truth
8:

Jesus is all I needed. I love the word of God. I love studying the scriptures in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I am standing on the promises of God that if I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, I will be saved. I have that assurance. And I have the peace of God. For the bible tell me that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truths.

Just know, You have chosen to be outside the Church Jesus established and gave all His promises to. That’s a dangerous position to be in.
8:

I am now a Born again, spirit filled child of God. I do believe that the bible, Old and New Testaments were written for ALL people. Not just the Catholics. That is so very presumptuous to think that.

The Catholic Church gave us the NT. You can disagree, but it doesn’t change the facts.

And those scriptures condemn division from the Church. Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21. There is no expiration on that condemnation.
8:

if I told you I was not Catholic any longer that you would not allow me to share with you. And I didn’t want there to be walls up between us. Obviously you all love the Lord and have accepted him as your savior. Why can’t we share that which we have in common and leave our differences aside?

Because indifferentism and relativism are heresies.

 

[Porknpie]

Honey, first of all, we need to define the meaning of “church”. It does not mean an institution like the Catholic church.

Christ built his Church upon St. Peter 2,000 years ago and said we woud guide his Church (Singular) to all Truth and those that “hear you, hear me and the one who sent me”. This same Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth as 1 Timothy 3:15 says. So Christians have been listening to this Catholic Church, listening to Christ through his Church, infallible on faith and morals for 2,000 years. Or you can believe that Christ set up 40,000 plus denominations, each reading the bible from their own perspective and coming up with their own doctrines on faith and morals. This is counter to scripture that says Christ would lead his Church (singular) to all Truth.

15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

St. Ignatius writes around 110ad. It’s important to note that the Church was already being called Catholic by the time of St. Ignatius and that they were participating in the Real Presence of the Eucharist (not symbolic).

**"See that ye all follow the bishop, **even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

St Cyprian is pretty explicit in the need to follow the Catholic Church.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

As mentioned above, being protestant, you are outside of Church Christ himself established and do not have all seven sacraments upon which Christ gives us grace for our salvation, including the Eucharist where he is made present, bodily, soul and divinity that Catholics can receive daily world-wide. This is easily seen in John 6 but also prophesized in Malachi 1:11. There is only one pure offering, in every place, from the rising of the sun to its setting: the Eucharist.

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.

All people. In John 3:16, a scripture that most know so well, it says that "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only Son, that WHOMSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This is very Catholic… coming from a Catholic book…but you are missing that there is a response needed from us and that our salvation can be lost. Do you believe in once saved always saved? If you like to listen to mp3 files, here’s one that refutes this doctrine from scripture. Link is here. (have to enter email address).

Jody, here’s another mp3 link quickly covering the Eucharist, Baptism and Reconciliation, all using scripture. I encourage you to listen to it. There are more files available on the same website. Your protestant teachers have pulled you away from the one faith…by removing the bible from the Church and faith that produced it, creating all kinds of error including:

• Baptism is symbolic (it’s sacramental and needed for our salvation just as the bible says)
• Infant baptism is not required (no, the early Church debated what day to baptize, not what year)
• Salvation by faith alone (the bible explicitly teaches the opposite)
• Sola Scriptura (the bible says this no where and this is not what the Church believed, ever, and it is not what Christ taught)
• Symbolic Lord’s Supper (again, the bible doesn’t teach this, the Church has never believed it…we have the early Church describing the Catholic Mass by mid-2nd century)
• Once saved always saved (made up by men, not found in the bible and not found at anytime in the Church)

As I said earlier, the bible you are holding is a Catholic book. You implicitly trust in the infallibility of the Catholic Church to have decided what books are in your bible. The Catholic Church canonized 37 NT books out of several hundred that were in circulation…but you are missing 7 OT books, removed by a printing press to save money. Best to get the complete written Word of God…

But your bible sets up a difficult dilemma for protestants: you hold that the Catholic Church is in error on faith and morals…but at the same time you hold that the Catholic Church is infallible in deciding on the biblical canon. If you can’t trust the Church on the former, then neither should you trust that the bible you have is the complete & accurate Word of God.

Pork

 

[Porknpie]

I do believe that the bible, Old and New Testaments were written for ALL people. Not just the Catholics. That is so very presumptuous to think that. Remember, it was writtened and intended, originally, for the Jews.

Jody,

To be clear, the biblical canon was compiled by and for the Catholic Church at the synods of Hippo and Carthage, in 393 and 397ad for instruction, teaching but also to have a universal set of readings at the Catholic Mass. And authors of its books and writings were the first Catholic Bishops and Catholic Christians.

The Church Christ established is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.