Is Billy Joel song offensive?

[MooCowSteph]

chuckle I hadn’t really thought of it that way, but I suppose it’s possible. I was a bit agitated. My intention, or so I thought it to be, was to redirect the focus of the thread to Billy Joel. Ah, well. In either case, I hope that’s what is accomplished.

Yes, we all get a little agitated on here every once in a while. On a totally different subject, I used to frequent boards where there were always arguments…it really wears you down and it’s surprised me how quickly I became uncharitable. Not saying you two were, just that we can get carried away when we’re behind a monitor. Goes along with the other thread about forum manners. Guess we just have to remember there are people behind those screennames. Thanks for being cool and not thinking I was attacking…

…and I still think the song’s not offensive

 

[wabrams]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

Dave Matthews … shudder

What’s wrong with Dave??

 

[wabrams]

fix:

Two points.

1. It was not about a Jewish girl. It was specfically Catholic. That is relevant.
2. The fact that something may have happened does not magically make it good and noble that it is performed as a song that offends many, no matter how many did it or are doing it.

I guess you don’t remember what it was like to be young with your hormones raging.

fix:

I remember when the song came out. There was much discussion about it and it was banned from the radio in some markets. The controversy was such because the song is offensive.

So I guess you think the Beatles are offensive as well?

 

[fix]

wabrams:

I guess you don’t remember what it was like to be young with your hormones raging.

I guess you approve of offensive songs?

So I guess you think the Beatles are offensive as well?

Depends on the song. Would you think it a good idea to play Only the Good Die Young for our Lord? Would He find it pleasing?

 

[Shinobu]

wabrams:

That whole song is about how the harder we try to find something, the more in becomes clear the answer is right in front of us.

Thank you for shareing that. Now I can put to rest my theory of the song and realize that I was stupid for thinking the way I was. That’s what one gets when they go to hasty assumptions.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

I guess you approve of offensive songs?

Sorry, it’s not that black and white. Many other posters here don’t see it that way either.

fix:

Depends on the song. Would you think it a good idea to play Only the Good Die Young for our Lord? Would He find it pleasing?

If the song is truly about trying to undermine someone’s values to get them into bed, and that doesn’t work, then why not? It’s a testament (although an unusual one) about how a young woman’s values couldn’t be broken by a man who only wanted to get her in bed.

 

[aimee]

wabrams:

And if the girl from his past had been Jewish, he would have mocked her Jewish Faith. At certain ages, guys will say anything or mock anything to get a girl into bed. You grow up and cease to do those things. And then musicians alot of times write songs about their youthful experiences. Don’t believe me, go pick up a Dave Mathews CD.

how bout Metallica

 

[fix]

wabrams:

Sorry, it’s not that black and white. Many other posters here don’t see it that way either.

Read the lyrics. It is offensive.

If the song is truly about trying to undermine someone’s values to get them into bed, and that doesn’t work, then why not? It’s a testament (although an unusual one) about how a young woman’s values couldn’t be broken by a man who only wanted to get her in bed.

What a spin. The song particularly mocks the Catholic faith. Just because one calls themself an artist and many accept nonsense does not make it virtuous. It is not a song about temptation. It is a song about mockery and the desire to violate a woman. Things that I do not celebrate, if you choose to, that is your prerogative.

 

[wabrams]

aimee:

how bout Metallica

You know, I’ve never really paid too much attention to their lyrics. I like their work from the early 90’s forward.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

Read the lyrics. It is offensive.

What a spin. The song particularly mocks the Catholic faith. Just because one calls themself an artist and many accept nonsense does not make it virtuous. It is not a song about temptation. It is a song about mockery and the desire to violate a woman. Things that I do not celebrate, if you choose to, that is your prerogative.

I’m soooooo sorry Mr. High and Mighty. You could have simply said “that’s not how I see it, but oh well.” I respect that you don’t like it. I don’t mind if you tell me why you don’t like it. But don’t sit there and act like your reasoning is the only one.

 

[wabrams]

Shinobu:

Thank you for shareing that. Now I can put to rest my theory of the song and realize that I was stupid for thinking the way I was. That’s what one gets when they go to hasty assumptions.

That’s not being stupid. Sometime’s a songs lyrics jump right out at you, sometimes they take a little more thought. I love music and I really believe most tell a story. Sometimes it’s familiar, sometimes it’s not.

 

[jeffreedy789]

1. The fact that something may have happened does not magically make it good and noble that it is performed as a song that offends many, no matter how many did it or are doing it.

this is a good bit to discuss. shall we do it here, or start a new thread on the subject?

what i’m getting at here is the idea that fiction should not be criticized for protraying sinfulness because ‘that’s the way it really is’.

i run into this argument when i point out my dislike for one aspect of the harry potter books. i have read them all, some more than once, and rowling is certainly a storytelling genius. but harry lies, cheats, and steals his way through every book, and never gets in trouble for it - in fact, he’s often rewarded for it!

when i bring this up, people chide me because they say that that’s the way kids really ARE. but to ME, a book (or a song, or a painting, or whatever) tells a STORY, and the story has a message. if you portray kids lying to get out of trouble, and then getting rewarded for it, i think you’re painting an untrue picture of reality.

and if you’re listening to a song by billy joel where he says that he’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, and that it’s pretty much inevitable that this girl is going to ‘give it up’ before she gets married, so it might as well be with him, it paints an untrue picture of the world.

some say ‘that’s the way it really is’. does that justify art? does that make it less offensive? does that mean that it’s NOT demeaning to the catholic faith?

 

[surfinpure]

wabrams:

What’s wrong with Dave??

I’m not even going to go into my issues with “Dave” on this thread. Suffice it to say, he’s not in my music collection.

 

[fix]

wabrams:

I’m soooooo sorry Mr. High and Mighty. You could have simply said “that’s not how I see it, but oh well.”

Look, it is not that I am high and mighty. I see this thing as very important and part of a wider cultural war. If one wants to change the publics mores, pop songs are a good place to start. How many folks hear this song, or similar ones, and think yes that is great, it is fun, those boorish Catholics they do not know how to have fun.

This stuff works at a very fundamental level and changes attitudes subtley, but powerfully.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Yeah, this one could be offensive, but not as bad as “Captain Jack”. Although that one doesn’t get as much airplay.

but the #1 all-time worst Billy Joel song: “Scenes from an Italian Restaurant”.

 

[fix]

jeffreedy789:

this is a good bit to discuss. shall we do it here, or start a new thread on the subject?

what i’m getting at here is the idea that fiction should not be criticized for protraying sinfulness because ‘that’s the way it really is’.

i run into this argument when i point out my dislike for one aspect of the harry potter books. i have read them all, some more than once, and rowling is certainly a storytelling genius. but harry lies, cheats, and steals his way through every book, and never gets in trouble for it - in fact, he’s often rewarded for it!

when i bring this up, people chide me because they say that that’s the way kids really ARE. but to ME, a book (or a song, or a painting, or whatever) tells a STORY, and the story has a message. if you portray kids lying to get out of trouble, and then getting rewarded for it, i think you’re painting an untrue picture of reality.

and if you’re listening to a song by billy joel where he says that he’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, and that it’s pretty much inevitable that this girl is going to ‘give it up’ before she gets married, so it might as well be with him, it paints an untrue picture of the world.

some say ‘that’s the way it really is’. does that justify art? does that make it less offensive? does that mean that it’s NOT demeaning to the catholic faith?

Your points are related to this Billy Joel discussion. Every time some “artist” wants to make a statement it is seen as infallible and justified no matter how it contributes to the “dictatorship of relativism”.

 

[wabrams]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

I’m not even going to go into my issues with “Dave” on this thread. Suffice it to say, he’s not in my music collection.

Come on, humor me.

 

[surfinpure]

jeffreedy789:

this is a good bit to discuss. shall we do it here, or start a new thread on the subject?

what i’m getting at here is the idea that fiction should not be criticized for protraying sinfulness because ‘that’s the way it really is’.

i run into this argument when i point out my dislike for one aspect of the harry potter books. i have read them all, some more than once, and rowling is certainly a storytelling genius. but harry lies, cheats, and steals his way through every book, and never gets in trouble for it - in fact, he’s often rewarded for it!

when i bring this up, people chide me because they say that that’s the way kids really ARE. but to ME, a book (or a song, or a painting, or whatever) tells a STORY, and the story has a message. if you portray kids lying to get out of trouble, and then getting rewarded for it, i think you’re painting an untrue picture of reality.

and if you’re listening to a song by billy joel where he says that he’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, and that it’s pretty much inevitable that this girl is going to ‘give it up’ before she gets married, so it might as well be with him, it paints an untrue picture of the world.

some say ‘that’s the way it really is’. does that justify art? does that make it less offensive? does that mean that it’s NOT demeaning to the catholic faith?

You have put this very well. It reminds me, in fact, of when I was fourteen and my girlfriend and I wanted to rent the movie “Pretty Woman.” My father put his foot down and said absolutely not. His reasoning was that it’s a movie that glorifies prostitution. Although I was less than happy with him at the time, I now agree completely. If you depict a prostitue “hooking” a high class business exec and then turning into some sort of fairy princess for it, what are you really saying?

It’s true that the Harry Potter books are only stories, but I much prefer the types of stories in which disobedience is not rewarded.

And I much prefer the types of songs in which the standards of a Catholic girl are not bashed, even if it’s “real.” Reality doesn’t make anything wholesome or worthy of reenactment.

 

[wabrams]

fix:

Your points are related to this Billy Joel discussion. Every time some “artist” wants to make a statement it is seen as infallible and justified no matter how it contributes to the “dictatorship of relativism”.

No, it really is “just life.” Life isn’t fair, it isn’t always fun. It’s an observation of how it really is. If people want to use that for an excuse for their bad behavior, then that’s their problem. Raise your kids right, teach them right and wrong, teach them about God, and things like this won’t matter. When they turn 18 and are let loose on the world, they’ll know how to discern the movies and the songs we shield them from.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Am I the only one who’s surprised that this thread has gotten so long? (not that I haven’t contributed…)