Is Byzantine and Ruthenian the same Church?

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I was reading the thread about changing rites and noticed this:
Now, a Ruthenian pretty much anywhere in the American Pacific-West & Southwest is under the Eparch of Van Nuys… in the Midwest, it’s the Eparchy of Parma…
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I do not live far from the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist. The sign on the church says “Byzantine Catholic”. In the other thread, in the post I quoted, it mentions Ruthenian. Is the Byzantine Church the same thing as the Ruthenian Church?
 
Generally speaking, yes. The Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh and the Eparchies of Passaic, Parma and Van Nuys together make up what is called the “Byzantine Catholic Church of America”. It was modeled in one sense after the Orthodox Church of America (OCA). However, it is not entirely accurate. The Melkite, Ukrainian, Romanian, Italo-Byzantine, Russian, etc etc Churches are all Byzantine Catholic Churches. The traditional way of describing the Churches whose rite descends from Constantinople is “Greek Catholic”.

Peronally, I prefer “Orthodox Catholic Church”, but no one elected me Pope! :rolleyes:

The Cathedral of St. John the Baptist is the Church of Bishop John Kudrick, who is a wonderful bishop, IMHO. Parma is also the home of a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Eparchy:

stjosaphateparchy.org/

From what I have been told, their Cathedral is beautiful.

Hope that claifies it…

In ICXC,

Gordo
 
Hi Laura:
The short answer to your immediate question is yes, … but…

The Cathedral of St. John the Baptist that you linked to is the Catherdral parish of the Eparchy of Parma of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolitan Church, sui iuris, of Pittsburgh.

This mouthful is often abbreviated. A typical short-hand is Byzantine Catholic Church or Greek Catholic Church. The latter name was common in Austria-Hungary and was brought to America by Rusyn (Ruthenian) immigrants. “Byzantine” displaced “Greek” in the US, where “Greek” was typically thought to refer to the nationality of people from Greece.

On the other hand, “Byzantine” is a term used to refer to the rite practiced in a number of Eastern Catholic (and Orthodox Churches) - including, for example, the Melkite Greek Catholic and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches.
 
dvdjs said:
Hi Laura:
The short answer to your immediate question is yes, … but…

The Cathedral of St. John the Baptist that you linked to is the Catherdral parish of the Eparchy of Parma of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolitan Church, sui iuris, of Pittsburgh.

This mouthful is often abbreviated. A typical short-hand is Byzantine Catholic Church or Greek Catholic Church. The latter name was common in Austria-Hungary and was brought to America by Rusyn (Ruthenian) immigrants. “Byzantine” displaced “Greek” in the US, where “Greek” was typically thought to refer to the nationality of people from Greece.

On the other hand, “Byzantine” is a term used to refer to the rite practiced in a number of Eastern Catholic (and Orthodox Churches) - including, for example, the Melkite Greek Catholic and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches.
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Would the Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral parish be in Russian?
 
lak611 said:
Would the Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral parish be in Russian?
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You ask simple questions with answers that are only simple like the tip of an iceberg. 😃

The services at St John’s would be in English.

Perhaps at St John’s, or other, near-by BCC parishes, there would be some use of Old Slavonic in the liturgy, or Rusyn language in para-liturgical hymns. (Even possibly some Hungarian.) But these languages are distinct from Russian language, which is not part of our heritage. The BCC can be fairly considered as having a post-ethnic orientation that is mainly reflected in language (but not in food or music!). This orientation is a matter of some controversy, as you might imagine. (Perhaps this is what EM meant his strange remark about by our being modeled after the OCA.)

You almost certainly get more Slavonic, as well as modern Ukrainian in a Ukrainian catholic church. (But no Russian 😉 .)

Interestingly, you would also unlikely to Russian in a Russian Orthodox church. The current perspective, I think, is to adhere to Old Slavonic and not use vernacular Russian.
 
I couldn’t find any reference to Ruthenian on either of the websites referenced.

Ruthenian is a nationality. See:

britannica.com/eb/topic-514207/article-9064505

Byzantine refers to the rite.

As with many churches, especially those built by immigrants, the names also included the dominant nationality of the parishioners. It is my understanding, that in many instances, the nationality has been dropped from the name.

It is also my understanding, that some of these churches have Mass in their “native” tongue. Just as in some Roman Catholic churches you can have Mass in Spanish, Croatian, Polish, etc. I do believe that since subsequent generations do not speak in their immigrant ancestors tongue, that most of the liturgies are in English.

It is also my understanding, that the Byzantine eparch, in trying to unify the Eastern Rite churches, have made deliberate attempts to drop the nationality titles.

Mary Carol
 
dvdjs said:
The services at St John’s would be in English.

Perhaps at St John’s, or other, near-by BCC parishes, there would be some use of Old Slavonic in the liturgy, or Rusyn language in para-liturgical hymns. (Even possibly some Hungarian.) But these languages are distinct from Russian language, which is not part of our heritage. The BCC can be fairly considered as having a post-ethnic orientation that is mainly reflected in language (but not in food or music!). This orientation is a matter of some controversy, as you might imagine. (Perhaps this is what EM meant his strange remark about by our being modeled after the OCA.)

You almost certainly get more Slavonic, as well as modern Ukrainian in a Ukrainian catholic church. (But no Russian 😉 .)

Interestingly, you would also unlikely to Russian in a Russian Orthodox church. The current perspective, I think, is to adhere to Old Slavonic and not use vernacular Russian.
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MCL said:
It is also my understanding, that some of these churches have Mass in their “native” tongue. Just as in some Roman Catholic churches you can have Mass in Spanish, Croatian, Polish, etc. I do believe that since subsequent generations do not speak in their immigrant ancestors tongue, that most of the liturgies are in English.
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Thanks! 🙂 I was thinking about going to a Divine Liturgy, but I would not go if it was in a language I do not understand. I am not Ruthenian, Ukranian or Russian, so I do not understand those languages. I have never even heard of Slavonic. Since it would be in English, I will probably go some time.
 
The Byzantine Greek Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh sui juris is unofficially and colloquially called “The Ruthenians.”

And almost all Ruthenians are Byzantine (there are some Latins among them) but not all Byzantines are Ruthenians.

As you said about the tip of the iceberg, nothing about Eastern Christianity is simple.
 
So then, is Ukranian Catholic and Ruthenian Catholic the same Church, only a different nationality? Would the Liturgy be different at St. John’s (Byzantine Cathedral) and St. Josaphat’s (Ukranian Cathedral)? Would the Liturgy at the Ukranian Cathedral be in English or Ukranian?
 
**So then, is Ukranian Catholic and Ruthenian Catholic the same Church, only a different nationality? **

**At one time, the answer would be sort of yes. The Union of Uzhorod (Ruthenians) was 50 years after the Union of Brest, and was treated canonically as an extension of it. Both Ruthenians and Ukrainians sent representatives to the Synod of Zamosc.

But Pius X separated the Ruthenian and Ukrainians, based on which slope of the Carpathians you came from: north, you were Ukrainian, south, Ruthenian.**

Would the Liturgy be different at St. John’s (Byzantine Cathedral) and St. Josaphat’s (Ukranian Cathedral)?

Slightly, but nothing that you would really notice.

Would the Liturgy at the Ukranian Cathedral be in English or Ukranian?

In all probability, yes. (And I chose my answer deliberately.)
 
OH BOY

I’m fast coming to the coclusion that the answers to these questions are :-

Are you ready for this

‘yes’ and ‘no’

The Ukrainians and Ruthenians are both Greek Catholic BUT they have slightly different backgrounds.

The Ruthenians are more likely to have DL in English though depending on the parish you may well , from what I have heard , find that Church Slavonic is used from time to time. This is traditional and many people do not like the way it is being phased out.

Ukrainians prefer their DL to be , usually in Ukrainian BUT many Parishes will **also **have a DL in English. St Josaphat does this I know.

You have to remember that we are Byzantine and err umm ----- at times we are not terribly logical
 
bpbasilphx said:
**So then, is Ukranian Catholic and Ruthenian Catholic the same Church, only a different nationality? **

**At one time, the answer would be sort of yes. The Union of Uzhorod (Ruthenians) was 50 years after the Union of Brest, and was treated canonically as an extension of it. Both Ruthenians and Ukrainians sent representatives to the Synod of Zamosc.

But Pius X separated the Ruthenian and Ukrainians, based on which slope of the Carpathians you came from: north, you were Ukrainian, south, Ruthenian.**

Would the Liturgy be different at St. John’s (Byzantine Cathedral) and St. Josaphat’s (Ukranian Cathedral)?

Slightly, but nothing that you would really notice.

Would the Liturgy at the Ukranian Cathedral be in English or Ukranian?

In all probability, yes. (And I chose my answer deliberately.)
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Wow. This is all very complicated to a clueless and curious Latin (yours, truly)!
 
wannabee said:
OH BOY

I’m fast coming to the coclusion that the answers to these questions are :-

Are you ready for this

‘yes’ and ‘no’

The Ukrainians and Ruthenians are both Greek Catholic BUT they have slightly different backgrounds.

The Ruthenians are more likely to have DL in English though depending on the parish you may well , from what I have heard , find that Church Slavonic is used from time to time. This is traditional and many people do not like the way it is being phased out.

Ukrainians prefer their DL to be , usually in Ukrainian BUT many Parishes will also have a DL in English. St Josaphat does this I know.

You have to remember that we are Byzantine and err umm ----- at times we are not terribly logical
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This is very complicated, especially to a curious and confused Latin (myself)! I guess it would probably be best for me to call St. Josaphat’s first and find out when the English Divine Liturgy is offered.
 
Laura ,

Don’t worry about language - honest - you will be able to recognise what is happening .

Just remember we are Catholics so you know that Our Lord and Saviour will be present
 
wannabee said:
welcome to the world of Eastern Catholicism 😃
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Back when I was in college, we had a Divine Liturgy celebrated in the chapel. I have no idea what rite it was, but it was in English. I had no problems understanding and thought it was beautiful. I did not know until I came to CAF that there were so many different Eastern Catholic Churches. I just thought there was Latin and Byzantine Catholic. Now I am trying to learn more. I found out that there are Maronite and Melkite Churches in Cleveland too. I want to go to Divine Liturgy at all of these at some point, but I do not want to do something stupid when I am there, so that’s why I am asking these questions.
 
Laura

We are used to visitors .🙂

We love having visitors 🙂 🙂

We know how to behave to them as we want them to feel at home with us.

I promise no one will point fingers at you or glare if you do something we don’t.

The only thing I would say - and I know you will have remembered this is - Please don’t hold out your hands for Communion , or stick out your tongue 🙂

just go - relax and enjoy it

oh and then come back again , and again , and ag …
 
lak611 said:
So then, is Ukranian Catholic and Ruthenian Catholic the same Church, only a different nationality? Would the Liturgy be different at St. John’s (Byzantine Cathedral) and St. Josaphat’s (Ukranian Cathedral)? Would the Liturgy at the Ukranian Cathedral be in English or Ukranian?
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There are two distinct particular churches.
Are the nationalities are distinct?😉

Ruthenian, from the encyclopedia link above, encompasses both people who would identify today as Ukrainians (or more specifically as Western-Ukrainians or Galicians), as well as those who would call themselves Rusyns. (It is largely a matter of which side of the mountains you were from - a fact of geography that formed your history.) Some Ukrainians insist that Rusyns are Ukrainians; this was official policy of Easter European governments in the Soviet era.

The BCC in America originated from Rusyn immigrants; the UGCC from Ukrainians.
Here are some links about Rusyns:
c-rs.org/
rusyn.org/index.html
unpo.org/member_profile.php?id=44

Are the liturgies the same? Substantially.
English? Would vary from parish to parish in both Churches (in the US), but it probably safe to say that the BCC uses English predominantly; the UGCC has more Slavonic and/or Ukrainian.
 
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