Is CAF a good guide to theology, politics, and social attitudes among US Catholics?

[Londoner]

Due to limits of space, I am condensing my previous posts here:

My curiosity is about who CAF reflects attitudes among US Catholics, who make up most of who posts on here. I’m not taking one side or the other, I am just curious because Catholics I know are very different to what I find on here.

CAF: Uses Baltimore Catechism, St Alphonsus Liguori, I see links to Father Z, Father Ripperger, Father Mike, Bishop Barron, etc.
Catholics I know: Vatican 2 very important. Also, writings of John Paul II.

CAF: Opposition to James Martin. Sceptical about Jesuits.
Catholics I know: Like Jesuits.

CAF: Less interested in ecumenism, some hostility towards other denominations, esp. Baptists. Also hostile towards other religions, esp. Islam.
Catholics I know: Very ecumenical. Good engagement with other religions.

CAF: Clergy held in very high regard, sometimes tending towards clericalism.
Catholics I know: Clergy and laity more equal.

CAF: Alarmist about Amazon synod/Pachamama.
Catholics I know: Not alarmed.

CAF: Free market capitalism, low tax, low spend, small government. Condemnation of all forms of left-wing politics. Red scare. “Nazis were socialists”.
Catholics I know: Tend towards the left/moderate socialism.

CAF: Praise for populist leaders (Trump, Johnson, Putin, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Orbán) and Franco and Salazar. Some oppose democracy.

CAF: Belief in “cultural Marxism”. Left/liberals seen as totalitarian/dictatorship.
Catholics I know: “Cultural Marxism” regarded as Nazi conspiracy theory.

CAF: Cites Breitbart, RedState, LifeSiteNews, Washington Examiner, The Stream, The American Conservative, The Federalist. Katie Hill nudes a good thing.
Catholics I know: Guardian, BBC. Appalled by K. Hill nudes.

CAF: Opposition to universal healthcare and state-funded schooling (some oppose all schooling).
Catholics I know: In favour of public services.

CAF: Climate change denial.
Catholics I know: Environmentalism.

CAF: Anti-EU.
Catholics I know: Support European project.

CAF: Tough line on immigration. Sweden cited as an example of worst outcome of European immigration model.
Catholics I know: Welcome refugees, support amnesty for illegal migrants.

CAF: Fear about homosexual agenda, gender ideology. Sexual abuse crisis blamed on gay priests. Chick-fil-A a cause célèbre. Women’s sport allegedly overrun by biological males.
Catholics I know: Sympathy for LGBTQ+ people while accepting Church teaching.

CAF: Support right to bear arms.
Catholics I know: Support gun control.

CAF: Support for capital punishment
Catholics I know: Nobody supports capital punishment.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Your posts are too long for me to read all that (TL; DR).

CAF doesn’t reflect the norms of US Catholics. It reflects a small self-selecting group who have great interest in Catholicism and a propensity to use the Internet a lot.

 

[Londoner]

Apologies, perhaps I should try re-posting as separate threads. I was trying to get a sense of the overall culture.

 

[Lou2U]

A lot of interesting thoughts, @Londoner I’ve certainly wondered similarly as a fellow Brit.

Being in the UK as well, I can’t speak for US Catholics. But I suspect, certainly on the religious aspects, CAF is where the more passionate Catholics come, who are very interested in meeting like-minded Catholics.

And now I’m going to get out the popcorn and wait for more US Catholics to come along and talk about what they think

 

[CTBcin]

I am wondering how well CAF reflects attitudes among Catholics in the US.

Probably not too well. Still, American Catholics are probably slightly more conservative on the whole than in Canada or Europe, for instance. But American Catholicism is not nearly conservative as CAF tends to be.

I have been surprised to learn that the Baltimore Catechism is still used as a standard teaching/reference tool.

It’s not for the most part. Although you can still find it being used in some places.

Catholics on CAF seem less inclined to engage with non-Catholics and non-Christians.

There’s varying views in American Catholicism. Most do not vilify non-Catholic Christians. In fact, many would view Protestantism as an equally good and valid form of Christianity (I do not). There does tend to be a great distrust towards Muslims, both among Catholics and Americans in general. 9/11 and it’s effects are certainly part of that.

Catholics on CAF are often concerned about liturgy, e.g. liturgical abuse, use of Latin, the Extraordinary Form, communion rails, reception on the tongue, and kneeling. I would say that in the UK, unless you worship at an Oratory, these things would not often be talked about.

This is a topic that tends to come up a lot on CAF. There is a disproportionate number of people here who are traditionalist-leaning, so Liturgy tends to be a topic of discussion. You see it occasionally discussed at some parishes, especially if the pastor is trying to reintroduce some more traditional elements.

I have noticed how Catholics on CAF, almost always from the US, support a view that I would call clericalism, regarding the clergy with great deference. E.g., I am perfectly comfortable addressing a priest or other cleric (including a cardinal) by his first name. I gather than in the US the standard form is still “Father Surname”.

That’s not clericalism. A priest should really be called by his title, unless he gives permission otherwise. I wouldn’t call my professor or doctor by their first name. In American Catholicism, most people refer to their priest as Fr. Surname or Fr. First name. I wouldn’t dare to refer to a bishop or Cardinal by his first name, especially if I didn’t know him.

I also gather that there is strong opposition to the ordination of women as deacons and to any relaxation of clerical celibacy, both of which would be popular among Catholics I know.

Women can’t be ordained. Of course, the issue of “deaconesses” is a complicated one, but women have never been ordained, not in the way men are. I think American Catholic views are pretty divided on this issue, as well as clerical celibacy.

 

[CTBcin]

In the political sphere, Catholics in the US appear to be very much further to the right than Catholics in Europe are.

This is probably true, for the most part.

Conversely, I have been surprised to read positive opinions about populist leaders and about historical right-wing dictators

That’s probably more of a CAF attitude. Most American Catholics are not monarchists, not by a long shot. Although many are supportive of Trump.

In terms of public services, I am used to Americans opposing universal healthcare free at the point of use (“socialized healthcare”), but some people go further and oppose publicly-funded education. Quite a few people on CAF support homeschooling and even unschooling. Somebody described publicly-funded education as “the tenth plank of the Communist Manifesto”. I find this remarkable, because in the UK and Ireland Catholic schools are actually funded by the state.

Americans are definitely less supportive of universal healthcare. (And, knowing some Brits myself, there are certainly some issues with it). While homeschooling is fairly small, it is significantly larger and more socially accepted than in Europe. I think it’s fine as long as there’s some oversight. Catholics in America have traditionally had a bad relationship with public education. It was seen as Protestant. And 150 years ago, it definitely was.

 

[CTBcin]

Another really interesting area is climate change.

Views are varied in American Catholicism, and it generally falls along political lines more than religious.

Another surprising area for me is the EU.

Americans have always been more on the isolationist side, so this is not a surprise. (Yet, on the contrary, we often get into politics and conflicts on the world stage).

Indeed, I am surprised by how hostile a lot of posts on CAF are about immigration.

Again, this falls more into politics lines, not so much religious.

quotes around the word “marriage” to emphasise that they do not consider it to be a real marriage.

And it is not a real marriage, from either a natural point of view or a sacramental point of view. There are many dissident Catholics in the US when it comes to this issue, but faithful Catholics will still understand this.

In short, CAF doesn’t necessarily represent US Catholicism overall, just a small segment. The views of individual Catholics in the US vary wildly, so don’t assume that what you see here is the majority view.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I ask that you not write something that long, because it’s a very difficult to respond otherwise. The answer the question of the topic at hand, no it’s not, the best thing you can do is to consult the catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[BartholomewB]

In both the United States and the UK, there are Catholics on the left as well as on the right. The U.S. biweekly National Catholic Reporter and the British weekly The Tablet are quite closely aligned with one another, I think.

Here at CAF, if you look at the World News forum, there is no shortage of threads which very quickly turn into a Left vs. Right shouting match.

You didn’t mention the Israel-Palestine issue, but this is a case where I seem to detect a substantial difference between British and American Catholics. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression is that a majority of British Catholics are pretty much in agreement with Jeremy Corbyn’s view of the Middle East.

 

[Wesrock]

Aside from the influence of American politics, I expect you’d have a lot of similarity on a UK Catholic internet forum.

 

[Bon_Croix]

CAF isn’t intended as a place to investigate the Catholic Church for gain outside of Church teaching.

 

[1ke]

I have been surprised to learn that the Baltimore Catechism is still used as a standard teaching/reference tool.

I wouldn’t say standard. It’s not on the textbook list in our diocese, for example.

Catholics on CAF seem less inclined to engage with non-Catholics and non-Christians

Well we are having a thanksgiving ecumenical service with the local Methodist church this Sunday evening— a tradition that’s been going on for about 50 years or more.

So basically, YMMV.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In both the United States and the UK, there are Catholics on the left as well as on the right

That’s for sure. If you want to see lefty Catholics, read the social media of “America” magazine or go visit a local parish heavily involved in social justice ministry. This forum would be too conservative for them. When you have someone ranting in feedback about having a pejorative term for the left censored, or endless threads complaining about the Pope, Fr Martin, etc then liberals are going to avoid.

As for the Baltimore Catechism, many of the people here including myself were taught from some version of it as a child. Many others are traditionalists and don’t like the new official Catechism. The Baltimore Catechism is also very simple, which the new Catechism is not (and frankly I think that’s a detriment of it).

 

[Londoner]

Thank you for your very extensive and interesting comments.

Yes, I can see that there is a reason why people who are traditionalist would gravitate towards a place where they can discuss their particularly interests and concerns. I am not hugely interested in liturgy myself, but I tend to take a “live and let live” approach. I have sometimes been to an Oratory and enjoyed the synchronised genuflections and doffing of birettas. What intrigues me more is the way to on these forums Catholicism seems to intersect with rather niche political positions. I completely get why people would want to preserve lace cottas and Mass facing east and so on. What I get less is why a lot of Catholics in the US (and I think it is mostly in the US) see an alliance with right-wing populists, men’s rights activists, climate change denies, anti-vaxxers, alt-right media, Eurosceptics, etc.

Regarding addressing clergy, I think this may simply be a US/UK thing. In Britain it’s the norm to call professionals and academics by their first name. I’ve taught at two universities in the UK and both times my students all used my first name. Similarly, I would call my solicitor or barrister by his or her first name. With doctors and dentists it’s slightly different because they sometimes rely on using a title to indicate that they have medical qualifications. In the UK it is complicated by the fact that our surgeons, despite being qualified medical doctors, use the archaic title “Mr” (“Miss” for a woman, even if married), so physicians are “Dr”, surgeons are “Mr/Miss”, and everyone else in a hospital is “First name” even if they have a doctorate. I think also our bishops and priests follow somewhat the Anglo-Catholic practice, which is to be called “Bishop John”, “Father David”, etc. Also, monastic clergy almost always never use surnames here. I would tend to start off with “Bishop Smith” and assume he will reply “Bishop John”.

The NHS really is a terrible way of organising healthcare. I believe it worked well in the early days, but it’s a completely broken system. It needs to be scrapped and replaced with something that actually works. I wouldn’t want to go over to the US system, but pretty much every country in Europe, plus Canada and some other places, have got a better system than ours.

That is interesting to know about schools. I think here most people just accepted state education or used the state-funded Catholic schools (to which the Church makes a contribution). The problem with private education in the UK is that it is incredibly expensive. One year’s tuition at Ampleforth College is about twice what most families would earn in a year.

On political points in general, I appreciate that this is not religious doctrine, but the thing that interests me on CAF is the way that most people do support Trump and the Republicans and the whole culture of the right/conservatism. I would say in the UK, apart from Catholics being pro-life, most Catholics are more on the left and into social justice, hence the support for things like cancelling debt from developing countries and an amnesty for illegal immigrants, as well as being strongly against the death penalty.

 

[Wesrock]

On political points in general, I appreciate that this is not religious doctrine, but the thing that interests me on CAF is the way that most people do support Trump and the Republicans and the whole culture of the right/conservatism. I would say in the UK, apart from Catholics being pro-life, most Catholics are more on the left and into social justice, hence the support for things like cancelling debt from developing countries and an amnesty for illegal immigrants, as well as being strongly against the death penalty.

As far as religious affiliation goes, a larger percentage of Catholics in the US tend to tend to be more liberal than those who identify as evangelical or baptist. But you still have your conservative groups, and I think there’s a growing anti-religious sentiment on the US left. I mean, it’s easy enough to point at those crazy conservative, isolationist US people, but then again the UK voted for Brexit so…

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Catholics in the US also seem to follow Catholic media and celebrity priests in a way that is unfamiliar to me…

Bishop Barron is a well-known name, as is the EWTN television network. Father Mike Schmitz probably comes next in line for being well-known. He is popular among young Catholics because of his YouTube channel and because he has been a speaker at the SEEK events (a huge every-other-year conference for Catholic college students put on by FOCUS). Father Z and Father Ripperger are known mostly only by a smaller group of the most traditional leaning Catholics.

Catholics on CAF seem less inclined to engage with non-Catholics and non-Christians. In the UK, the Catholic Church is engaged in ecumenism. In almost every town the Catholic parish will be part of Churches Together in Somewhere. It’s not unusual for Christians of all denominations to come together for important occasions.

I think Catholics passionate about their faith are at least somewhat likely to engage with non-Catholics and/or non-Christians about their faith. Catholic parishes are maybe somewhat less likely to get together for ecumenical events with other churches, but it’s not at all unheard of. (It’s a two-way street, though, because there are some protestant denominations that have no interest in doing things with Catholics. )

In my area, Catholic parishes are most likely to join with other churches not for liturgies but for charity, such as shelters and meals for the homeless.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

A lot of Catholics on CAF, however, are very averse to any contact with other Christian denominations, rather as it was before Vatican II. I also read very hostile comments about non-Christian religions on here, emphasising that other religions are “false” rather than seeking understanding

It’s the internet, so people will come across as somewhat harsher than they would if they were discussing in real life. I think it is important to seek understanding of where others are coming from and what they believe, but also to strive for truth and to lovingly bring others to the truth found in Christ and his Church.

People have criticised John Paul II for showing respect to the Quran.

I was rather shocked by the photo of him kissing the Quran as well, when I first saw it. I believe one can show respect toward other religions without making gestures that appear to be reverence or worship. I think the criticism comes from people worried that the Catholic Church today is more concerned about ecumenism and being nice than about truth. (I’m not saying whether that is a valid criticism, just that many have that view.)

Catholics on CAF are often concerned about liturgy, e.g. liturgical abuse, use of Latin, the Extraordinary Form, communion rails, reception on the tongue, and kneeling. I would say that in the UK, unless you worship at an Oratory, these things would not often be talked about.

Well, that’s CAF. It isn’t talked about as much in real life, but there certainly is a movement afoot to return to traditional practices. (I would love to see more of these things, though I myself am usually not an Extraordinary Form attendee.)

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I have noticed how Catholics on CAF, almost always from the US, support a view that I would call clericalism, regarding the clergy with great deference. E.g., I am perfectly comfortable addressing a priest or other cleric (including a cardinal) by his first name. I gather than in the US the standard form is still “Father Surname”.

I do not think it is clerical (whatever exactly that means) to call a priest “Father,” just common respect. Do people in the UK not call their priests “Father”? I never knew that. The standard form is “Father Surname,” but “Father First-Name” is very common as well, especially if one knows the priest personally. I definitely can’t imagine addressing a bishop or cardinal by their first name.

(Ok, that is all. Sorry for three posts in a row, but when I tried to post my first reply, it would not let me because it was too long.)

 

[TheLittleLady]

I have been surprised to learn that the Baltimore Catechism is still used as a standard teaching/reference tool.

These are the approved texts for parish Rel Ed in the US. The Baltimore Catechism is used by some people at home, but, it is not a standard tool in US.

In the UK, the Catholic Church is engaged in ecumenism. In almost every town the Catholic parish will be part of Churches Together in Somewhere. It’s not unusual for Christians of all denominations to come together for important occasions.

This varies from pastor to pastor. Our parish, our pastor, our Diocese/Bishop are very involved with ecumenism.

On CAF you get the sort of uber Catholic nerds (of which I am one!) who read obscure texts and Canon Law for fun. The other side of that is you get people who think this is an OFFICIAL outlet of the Catholic Church and they are afraid to approach their pastor.

Not even mentioning politics except to say #civilize-it

 

[blackforest]

Long post, but I got through it. Maybe bullet points, numbering, or more paragraph spacing would grab reader attention (??) OK, moving on to my own long post . . .

There is a small but very noisy streak of Catholicism in this country that tries to set itself apart for its moral superiority over everyone from the more “commoner” Catholics to even over the Pope himself. I meet them on CAF, and I meet them in my Catholic homeschooling community.

In both settings, I can feel despondent and isolated, but greater involvement in my home parish, as well as the occasional nuggets of wisdom on CAF, can help restore my hope.

Also, I consult with clergy. My parish priests have been able to correct a LOT of misleading information, black-and-white thinking, and out-of-contexts statements that I hear from laity. In the interests of avoiding a rabbit trail, I’ll refrain from getting specific.

But yes, what you see on CAF is atypical even of American Catholicism. But then, I’m an atypical CAF user in that I agree with most of your post.

To address some of your individual points:

I gather than in the US the standard form is still “Father Surname”.

In nearly 20 years as an ordinary form Roman Catholic in the U.S., I’ve only met priests addressed as Father First-Name.

I have been surprised to learn that the Baltimore Catechism is still used as a standard teaching/reference tool.

No. It is not standard. Most Catholics do not use it.

Catholics in the US also seem to follow Catholic media and celebrity priests in a way that is unfamiliar to me. I don’t think we have anything like EWTN, Father Z, Father Ripperger, Father Mike, Bishop Barron, etc.

Your observation is true, and this can be a good and bad thing. I consider Bishop Barron a solid, level-headed evangelist. (Did I just use the “E” word??? :crazy_face I won’t comment on some of the others you listed.

Catholics on CAF seem less inclined to engage with non-Catholics and non-Christians.

For whatever it’s worth . . . In my offline life, I have one Catholic friend that I see may every couple of months. I have a small circle of friends containing atheists/agnostics and one Orthodox woman. Our mandate to share Christ’s love is incomplete unless we venture out of our immediate circles.