Is CAF a good guide to theology, politics, and social attitudes among US Catholics?

[Londoner]

there are Catholics on the left as well as on the right. The U.S. biweekly National Catholic Reporter and the British weekly The Tablet are quite closely aligned with one another

This is true, but from what I see, in the UK the balance is more in favour of the left than the right. We have right-wing Catholic politicians e.g. Rees-Mogg and Widdecombe, but they are a minority. The bishops have tended to support more the agenda of the Labour Party (pre-Corbyn) insofar as they support social justice, public services, international cooperation, human rights, environmentalism. That is how most Catholics have tended to vote. The Tablet is more liberal/progressive like the National Catholic Reporter. Interestingly, I have read some on CAF say the Reporter doesn’t deserve to be called Catholic! I wonder what they would make of The Tablet!

there is no shortage of threads which very quickly turn into a Left vs. Right shouting match.

True. And the right is always strongly supported and pretty extreme. This is the thing - how extreme it is. In the UK you have Catholics who vote Tory, but that is still moderate, e.g. supports the NHS. The American conservatives one finds on CAF would never support the Tories.

You didn’t mention the Israel-Palestine issue

I actually don’t know. I think most Catholics probably do sympathise with the Palestinians, but I don’t know any Catholics who go as far as the Corbyn-type position and are actually anti-Israel or anti-Semitic. I would guess most Catholics here are fairly critical of both sides, think a two-state solution is needed, but feel that currently the Palestinians are suffering more than the Israelis. I guess in the US it’s more pro-Israel.

Aside from the influence of American politics

Quite possibly. But it’s the American politics I find intriguing. Like I said above, to us in Europe (not just Britain), and probably in Canada too, the American right seems quite extreme. Some of the right see themselves engaged in an existential struggle for the very survival of western civilisation, a cultural battle against the forces of socialism, feminism, political correctness, the gay agenda, the trans lobby, etc. Following on from your later post, I guess I thought US Catholics were more liberal than Southern Baptists (most people are…), but I hadn’t thought of US Catholics as liberal (e.g. supporting gun control, universal healthcare, amnesty for illegal immigrants, not being too worried if someone changes their pronouns, etc.)

If you want to see lefty Catholics, read the social media of “America” magazine or go visit a local parish heavily involved in social justice ministry.

Aha. From reading CAF I didn’t even realise that there were lefty Catholics in the US who were heavily involved in social justice. On CAF I see a lot more posts about gender pronouns and supporting Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby than I do about social justice.

 

[CTBcin]

Regarding addressing clergy, I think this may simply be a US/UK thing. In Britain it’s the norm to call professionals and academics by their first name. I’ve taught at two universities in the UK and both times my students all used my first name. Similarly, I would call my solicitor or barrister by his or her first name.

Very interesting. I didn’t know this about British culture.

 

[Londoner]

Thank you for your very long response! Lots of very interesting points there that certainly clarify a few things. For example, from how often I have seen Fr. Z and Fr. Ripperger quoted on here I had assumed this was a mainstream position for US Catholics, but perhaps they get quoted disproportionately to how many people regularly read them.

Regarding ecumenism, that is encouraging. I had read several threads where Catholics were discouraged from attending Protestant churches at all.

And yes, you are probably right that people often sound very extreme here and perhaps are not as extreme in real life. Mostly it happens over on the News forum where if you mention Gorbachev’s role in ending communism in Europe you are told that Gorbachev was morally equivalent to Pol Pot and the Cold War was won single-handed by the USA. Also, if you mention climate change you are called an alarmist. One person was pretty cheerfully telling us that her husband is racist and refuses to employ people from a certain ethnic background and actually got a bit of support (as well as a lot of criticism, to be fair).

I do not think it is clerical (whatever exactly that means) to call a priest “Father,” just common respect. Do people in the UK not call their priests “Father”?

We certainly use the title Father, yes. It’s more that some people on CAF talk about priests as if they are superhuman.

Not even mentioning politics except to say #civilize-it

Well, I have to say, @TheLittleLady, your posts on CAF are always extremely civilized and kind. The thing that upsets me about this site is that quite often, especially on the transgender issue, people feel the need to be really unkind. You will have seen the posts along the lines of “Why should I support a mentally ill person in his delusions? If I believed that I was the king of England, would you have to address me as Your Majesty? I will never call a 6-foot bearded man ‘Madam’. I will not deny reality.” Etc.

a small but very noisy streak of Catholicism in this country that tries to set itself apart for its moral superiority over everyone from the more “commoner” Catholics to even over the Pope himself.

Yes, that is pretty much what I have picked up on. I have given up arguing with some people here, because when a random guy on the internet thinks that he understands the teaching of the Catholic Church better than the Pope does, you’re never going to win. E.g. on the death penalty, there are literally thousands of posts on here now about Pope Francis and the death penalty and it’s mind-boggling (to me at least) that people won’t accept that the Pope might just understand how to do his job as Pope.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Any change to the Catechism is going to cause some Catholics to be alarmed.
Any change by this Pope will cause many Catholics to be doubly alarmed.
Any change by this Pope to something that many in US hold dear, like putting a miniscule handful of criminals to death, will cause a handful of people to make hundreds of posts about it.
Most Catholics who aren’t bothered by Pope Francis’ actions won’t bother to post.

I would strongly caution you about assuming how most US Catholics feel based on the prevailing opinion of posts because of the number of people who just get tired of arguing with those who worry about or criticize everything this Pope does, and thus stopped posting responses to his critics long ago. It’s easier for me to just let those who would wring their hands alone to handwring to each other in peace.

 

[CelticWarlord]

CAF: Alarmist about Amazon synod/Pachamama.
Catholics I know: Not alarmed.

I must say this one stood out for me. As a non-Catholic, non-American, I tend to view many forum related things simply as an observer, not as a participant. What I have read of the Amazon synod in the Catholic Register (Canadian edition) makes me wonder what the fuss is about among those who so seriously oppose it.

standing by for obligatory responses.

 

[catholic03]

On CAF I see a lot more posts about gender pronouns and supporting Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby than I do about social justice.

These are big issues that should be discussed. I am a New Zealander with ties to Britain and I am especially concerned with any doctrinal deviation.

I think the difference in approach between the two cultures is simply a cultural thing.

 

[OKComputer]

I think the average Catholic is a bit more liberal. Sadly, many polls show that catholics support abortion and gay marriage. The people that come here are, of course, about .000000000000000000000000001% of the population of the US Catholic, but I think we generally are more likely to support the church teachings on issues.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

While many generally are inclined to support the church official position, any Catholic on this forum who has a different opinion on a Church teaching is unlikely to say so on here.

Posters, especially Catholics, who express a position that appears the least bit contrary to Church teaching to someone (even if that someone is a hardcore conservative traditionalist) are likely to have their post flagged and removed (Even if the post gathers a large number of “Likes”) and sometimes they get further discipline like a suspension. They also run the risk of other posters telling them they’re going to hell or making other unpleasant remarks.

I have a whole list of “hot button issues” that I know not to express myself about on here because it will lead to no good if I do.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Great post, simple summary, very easy to read, thank you.
The readers digest condensed version of CAF vs Catholicism in the broader community.

How do you want us to respond.

 

[blackforest]

I think it represents US culture.

Respectfully . . . based on what? There’s actually a pretty wide array of Catholics who love Father James Martin, read America magazine, openly discuss the “preferential option for the poor,” take leading roles on parish social justice committees, donate to Democrats for Life, and pretty much tear their hair out every election season. (Hint: I’m tugging at my collar and nervously clearing my throat . . . )

British and New Zealand and American Catholics who practise the faith are doctrinally united but often have different political views.

Have you been to the U.S.? Attended Mass at more than one parish?

I’m not trying to sound combative - honest - but I don’t want our brothers and sisters around the globe getting the wrong impression of U.S. Catholicism based on CAF.

 

[catholic03]

Here’s my opinion (as a young male from NZ):

Firstly, do the Catholics you know go to church? I’m assuming they do, but I just wanted to ask. I think that Catholics here in NZ and the UK (as in Mass attending practising Catholics) tend to support all the Church’s teachings but take a softer approach. There is nothing wrong with this, but that is just an observation.

CAF: Uses Baltimore Catechism, St Alphonsus Liguori, I see links to Father Z, Father Ripperger, Father Mike, Bishop Barron, etc.
Catholics I know: Vatican 2 very important. Also, writings of John Paul II.

All of these sources are very important and valuable.

CAF: Opposition to James Martin. Sceptical about Jesuits.
Catholics I know: Like Jesuits.

We do like Jesuits, but we utterly condemn any attempts to change doctrine that cannot be changed. The Jesuits are not the issue, just the views of Fr James Martin on certain issues.

CAF: Less interested in ecumenism, some hostility towards other denominations, esp. Baptists. Also hostile towards other religions, esp. Islam.
Catholics I know: Very ecumenical. Good engagement with other religions.

We are ecumenical. I condemned the hostility towards Islam (especially considering the attacks in Christchurch earlier this year) and I am very open to ecumenism, but we must not compromise Church doctrine.

CAF: Clergy held in very high regard, sometimes tending towards clericalism.
Catholics I know: Clergy and laity more equal.

We respect and admire our clergy. If a priest or bishop doesn’t want to be treated differently, then that’s fine (the Cardinal-Archbishop of Wellington is fine just being called ‘John’ rather than ‘Your Eminence’), but we believe that they deserve the utmost respect. I admire my parish priest and archbishop more than any other NZers to be frank. They should be respected and held in high regard. Many priests like the ‘equal’ approach, which is fine. Just saying that many understandably want some respect and we give it to them because their ministry warrants is.

 

[catholic03]

CAF: Alarmist about Amazon synod/Pachamama.
Catholics I know: Not alarmed.

Nor am I.

CAF: Free market capitalism, low tax, low spend, small government. Condemnation of all forms of left-wing politics. Red scare. “Nazis were socialists”.
Catholics I know: Tend towards the left/moderate socialism.

CAF: Praise for populist leaders (Trump, Johnson, Putin, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Orbán) and Franco and Salazar. Some oppose democracy.

My ideal system is ‘Christian democracy’, quite popular on the continent and in Latin America. It favours social conservatism and social justice. Us Catholics tend to like Trump because he is pro life compared to the abortionist democrats. No Catholics like Duterte. He said he wanted to kill bishops and priests. Franco is more complicated, but he did promote the Church in Spain.

CAF: Opposition to universal healthcare and state-funded schooling (some oppose all schooling).
Catholics I know: In favour of public services.

I agree that this is quite a shock. In NZ, even our conservative party (the National Party whose former leader and Prime Minister is a Catholic who goes to my parish) supports this, it is a given and I support public services. I think that it is just so ingrained into American culture to oppose it, so many are opposed.

CAF: Climate change denial.
Catholics I know: Environmentalism.

The Church supports taking action on climate change. I do and the Church does.

 

[catholic03]

CAF: Anti-EU.
Catholics I know: Support European project.

I am a brexiteer, and I like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ann Widdecombe.

CAF: Fear about homosexual agenda, gender ideology. Sexual abuse crisis blamed on gay priests. Chick-fil-A a cause célèbre. Women’s sport allegedly overrun by biological males.
Catholics I know: Sympathy for LGBTQ+ people while accepting Church teaching.

These are all valid concerns. Cardinal-Archbishop Thomas Williams of Wellington said in 2004 that homosexual “civil unions” would turn NZ into a ‘moral wasteland’. He was right.

CAF: Support right to bear arms.
Catholics I know: Support gun control.

I support gun control. Again, support of the Second Amendment is so ingrained into American culture.

CAF: Support for capital punishment

The Holy Father has condemned this, so we must as well.

I think also our bishops and priests follow somewhat the Anglo-Catholic practice, which is to be called “Bishop John”, “Father David”, etc

The same in NZ. That’s fine. But I think we should default to showing the clergy the utmost respect.

This is true, but from what I see, in the UK the balance is more in favour of the left than the right. We have right-wing Catholic politicians e.g. Rees-Mogg and Widdecombe, but they are a minority. The bishops have tended to support more the agenda of the Labour Party (pre-Corbyn) insofar as they support social justice, public services, international cooperation, human rights, environmentalism. That is how most Catholics have tended to vote. The Tablet is more liberal/progressive like the National Catholic Reporter. Interestingly, I have read some on CAF say the Reporter doesn’t deserve to be called Catholic! I wonder what they would make of The Tablet!

It’a fine for a Catholic to uphold doctrine but have more left leaning social justice opinions. Again, I think it’s a cultural divide.

socialism, feminism, political correctness, the gay agenda, the trans lobby,

These are all important issues.

For example, from how often I have seen Fr. Z and Fr. Ripperger quoted on here I had assumed this was a mainstream position for US Catholics, but perhaps they get quoted disproportionately to how many people regularly read them.

They are good men who uphold Church doctrine. There is no reason not to quote them.

We certainly use the title Father, yes. It’s more that some people on CAF talk about priests as if they are superhuman.

They aren’t superhumans. They’re just humble men who we must respect.

 

[Londoner]

Any change by this Pope will cause many Catholics to be doubly alarmed.

I think that’s something I don’t entirely understand. Nick Donnelly, a permanent deacon up in the northwest of England, public describes himself as “Catholic, not Bergoglian”. He insists on calling the Pope “Jorge Bergoglio”, not “Pope Francis”. He posts things suggesting that Benedict XVI may still be the legitimate Pope (even though he himself says that he’s not). I find it really odd that some Catholics place their own personal opinions above the authority of the Pope.

the number of people who just get tired of arguing with those who worry about or criticize everything this Pope does, and thus stopped posting responses to his critics long ago.

I have a whole list of “hot button issues” that I know not to express myself about on here because it will lead to no good if I do.

Yes, probably very true. I’m afraid I tend to argue with people when I think they’re wrong. Not so much on points of theology, oddly enough. But I get very wound up, for example, when people post stuff about vaccines that I know is contradicted by all reputable scientists. I want to try to convince them that vaccines are safe and work. The fact that nobody else joins the argument leads me to assume that most Catholics are anti-vaccines, whereas in fact they may simply not have the energy to argue about it.

These are big issues that should be discussed.

I don’t disagree. But, as you yourself acknowledge, it’s a matter of tone.

How do you want us to respond.

Please respond however you wish!

Catholics who love Father James Martin, read America magazine, openly discuss the “preferential option for the poor,” take leading roles on parish social justice committees, donate to Democrats for Life

You see, that’s the group of Catholics I was wondering about. So they do exist! I was just puzzled that they don’t seem to exist on CAF (or exist in very small numbers). That’s more the kind of Catholicism I am used to. It’s very alien to me, the kind of Catholicism where people quote stories from Breitbart.

 

[catholic03]

I love America. I’m just saying that there are cultural differences that have certainly influenced American Catholics.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I find it really odd that some Catholics place their own personal opinions above the authority of the Pope.

I think so too, but it is bad form to criticize that on here. I ended up suspended the last time I made a general statement that such placing of personal opinion above the Pope’s authority (and not even on a hot button issue) showed a lack of humility. Someone took the comment personally and became very upset. Therefore, I added this issue to my “no-post list” for the future.

I was just puzzled that they don’t seem to exist on CAF (or exist in very small numbers).

Expressing support for Fr. James Martin on here is skating on the thin edge of flags and bans.

 

[catholic03]

It is good that people who disagree with Church teachings are suspended or have their posts removed (not aimed at you. Just the forum in general).

 

[OKComputer]

I have a whole list of “hot button issues” that I know not to express myself about on here because it will lead to no good if I do.

I agree, I’m the same way more or less. I know that no good can come from “debating” issues online. It never ends well for anyone. Been around too many forums and seen too many “discussions” end badly.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It is good that people who disagree with Church teachings are suspended or have their posts removed.

Well, yes and no. On the one hand, it’s pretty annoying to see someone going on and on about how masturbation shouldn’t be a sin. That one is pretty cut and dried.
On the other hand, if the Pope writes a Synod statement agreeing to consider the possibility of female deacons, or expresses a position on Communion in “Amoris Laetitia”, then one who agrees with the Pope’s position isn’t technically “going against Church teachings” but a lot of people on the forum still see it that way.

 

[catholic03]

female deacons

Well, it would not be against Church teaching to talk about female deacons as they were in the early Church, but it would be to think about sacramentally ordaining them as they do with married men. Just as an example.

Don’t want to derail the thread, just wanted to use an example