Getting out of my depth here, but I think the way I would frame it is that humanity was corrupted (or separated from God, or however one wants to phrase Original Sin), but humanness itself was not. Our Baptism does not change our human nature; it brings us into our proper familial relationship with God.
My question, IOW, is that when the author states , “Adam was fully human prior to his fall into sin”, was he saying that Adam wasn’t fully human after his sin??? It just seems like a muddled understanding to me, and inconsistent with Catholic understanding.
No. Characters.
I think you’re making the same mistake as Protestants who think that when the Gospel writer says that Joseph did not know Mary until Jesus was born, that that implies that Joseph did know her after.HopkinsReb:
My question, IOW, is that when the author states , “Adam was fully human prior to his fall into sin”, was he saying that Adam wasn’t fully human after his sin??? It just seems like a muddled understanding to me.
I don’t know… Pretty hard to keep arguing with a Calvinist if we can’t find points to disagree with you know. Can’t have that.
Thanks in any case. It was a relatively minor point anyway and that may have cleared it up for me.Then worse. Then better. Then reeeeeeeeeally worse.
Fearfully and wonderfully made. Items for special use. A little lower than the angels. A royal priesthood. Purchased at great cost. And on, and on and on. All truth. Thank God.
I think you misunderstand my point. My point in that post was not just that we have value; it was that we are beings. Pottery doesn’t get up and walk around. Pottery isn’t eternally damned or saved. Pottery doesn’t care what happens to itself. We get up and walk around. We’re eternally damned or saved. We care about what happens to ourselves. We are a fundamentally different class of thing than pottery, not just of different value. The logic of a potter and his pottery simply doesn’t apply to a Creator/Father and His creations/children.HopkinsReb:
Fearfully and wonderfully made. Items for special use. A little lower than the angels. A royal priesthood. Purchased at great cost. And on, and on and on. All truth. Thank God.
Yes - we matter. We have great worth - just ask my millennial children, and the millennials I interview at my office. “Please tell me about your vacation policy - I’m very focused on my personal wellness…”
Reformed theology feels right to me because it holds our value in tension with God’s sovereignty. I know - Catholicism does too, and it does it better. We can agree to disagree on that point me thinks.
I’m saying that we should be careful about building an entire system of theology around one passage of one letter written to a specific church to address a specific issue that was going on at a specific time.
I don’t think 2 Corinthians 4 really bears on this.
Nobody’s denying that we are small and fleeting.
Nobody is denying this, either. What I reject is the notion that He goes so far as to make us his little puppets, creating some of us in the knowledge that we are incapable of avoiding damnation on our own and refusing to give us any option other than horrifying, unceasing torment for all of eternity. That could not be done “in perfect love, justice and mercy.” That would be done in perfect sadism.
I’m pretending like lax doesn’t exist until Hopkins decides to get good again.
Dust off Institutes (I know you have it squirreled away somewhere - don’t worry, your secret’s safe with me) and have a re-look. The system is built on a wee bit more than Romans 9. It’s just my favorite part.
You guys have had a couple of good recruiting classes. It’s only a matter of time.
I actually don’t – the extent of my Calvinist library is a copy of the Westminster Confession and a few Keller books.
One can hope!
Yeah, I don’t mind it if it’s used judiciously and with extensive qualification.
It then explains that not every true believer will have assurance of salvation and many will have to wait years before they do gain assurance–and even still they may doubt or have moments of uncertainty, so that far from relying on “special knowledge” or revelation they are encouraged to make their “calling and election sure.”