Is capitalism a special form of slavery?

[Robert_Sock]

Some form of socialism. I don’t think capitalism will last another couple of centuries. Our productive ability has already outgrown this economic system. We easily have the productive power to ensure that everyone on Earth lives a decent life materially, but capitalism prevents this from being realized. Capitalists aren’t going to produce more than the market can consume, which means that capitalism essentially enforces scarcity, and it’s not as if what the market is capable of consuming actually represents people’s needs. We need a centrally planned needs-based economy, and to get rid of the market altogether.

Capitalism is an economic system that inherently relies on the exploitation of the labour of others for some to make a profit, but it isn’t a form of slavery.

I believe it depends on your definition of slavery. People who are forced to work and earn less than $1 per day or die of starvation, to me, is a form of slavery.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I believe it depends on your definition of slavery. People who are forced to work and earn less than $1 per day or die of starvation, to me, is a form of slavery.

Yeah, it can definitely be as bad as slavery. Perhaps worse, since at least slaves are guaranteed some kind of subsistence. Under capitalism, employers can just get rid of you whenever. It isn’t literally slavery, though.

 

[GEddie]

Some form of socialism. I don’t think capitalism will last another couple of centuries. Our productive ability has already outgrown this economic system. We easily have the productive power to ensure that everyone on Earth lives a decent life materially, but capitalism prevents this from being realized. Capitalists aren’t going to produce more than the market can consume, which means that capitalism essentially enforces scarcity, and it’s not as if what the market is capable of consuming actually represents people’s needs. We need a centrally planned needs-based economy, and to get rid of the market altogether.

Capitalism is an economic system that inherently relies on the exploitation of the labour of others for some to make a profit, but it isn’t a form of slavery.

Dream on.

Capitalism, or at least the free market, is as old as humankind (at least once humankind developed basic mathematics). It isn’t going away in 200 years. Or if it did, it would be by a worldwide Russian revolution, which didn’t work in the early 1900s and won’t work now.

Are the CCCP, China and North Korea really societies more admirable than capitalism? Would you desire, if allowed, to live in NK or China?

Capitalism is self regulating because the producer needs the consumer and vice versa. The innate venality that is in everybody is contained by the need to survive economically. Socialism depends for its maintenance on a level of altruism that just isn’t human. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” encourages those of zero ability and high need, while those of high ability, who keep the system moving, are penalized. And who determines abilities and needs?

Finally, who do you trust to command the economy? Command implies force.

ICXC NIKA

 

[mikekle]

After He returns, we will not be earthly beings, and will not need an economy. Economics is the management of scarcity, driven by human need, but the pneumatikon soma has no need.

ICXC NIKA.

What about the verses that say the earthly nations will try to make war on Jesus when he returns?

From what Ive come to understand, there will be a time period from when Jesus returns, when he will rule over this earth, people living at the time this happens, their lives will go on during this time at least, (1000 years I believe?), but things will be changed due to Jesus ruling.

 

[GEddie]

What about the verses that say the earthly nations will try to make war on Jesus when he returns?

From what Ive come to understand, there will be a time period from when Jesus returns, when he will rule over this earth, people living at the time this happens, their lives will go on during this time at least, (1000 years I believe?), but things will be changed due to Jesus ruling.

The Catholic Church rejects the millennial theory.

ICXC NIKA

 

[estesbob]

Some form of socialism. I don’t think capitalism will last another couple of centuries. Our productive ability has already outgrown this economic system. We easily have the productive power to ensure that everyone on Earth lives a decent life materially, but capitalism prevents this from being realized. Capitalists aren’t going to produce more than the market can consume, which means that capitalism essentially enforces scarcity, and it’s not as if what the market is capable of consuming actually represents people’s needs. We need a centrally planned needs-based economy, and to get rid of the market altogether.

Capitalism is an economic system that inherently relies on the exploitation of the labour of others for some to make a profit, but it isn’t a form of slavery.

The Church, rightly so, condemns socialism. It always works great on paper but fails miserably in practice.

 

[ProVobis]

After He returns, we will not be earthly beings, and will not need an economy. Economics is the management of scarcity, driven by human need, but the pneumatikon soma has no need.

ICXC NIKA.

I doubt if we will be privatizing gains while socializing losses after He returns. If that’s what you’re getting at (too).

 

[ProVobis]

Why do you attribute these things to capitalism? Why do you think they are unique to capitalism? And why do you think the world is capitalist?

Why is capitalism defined as the current US economy ignoring the fact that all manner of regulatory law has been enacted since it was ever first called capitalist? When would the US cease to be capitalist?

If you’re talking about the Ayn Rand brand of capitalism, I don’t think it ever existed. She herself called it an ideal.

 

[YADA]

I think we can all agree, there may be a better alternative to capitalism, after all, in this world, GREED is the number one priority, something God is totally against.

Capitalism is the system that fuels the super greed related to the Christmas holiday, IDK about anyone else, but Id say God probably does not appreciate all the secular companies taking such advantage of a christian holiday for the sake of greed. Does anyone really believe God is totally ok with this?

It will be interesting to see what kind of system Jesus puts in place when he returns though!

As if greed an inequality both do not also exist within socialism and communism - they both do and in those failed systems - greed and malice abound

Capitalism feeds the world …

People are hungry and oppressed in the 3rd World due to dictatorships, communism and socialism where those in power steal the gifts of the humanitarian west and use it to wage war … much of our humanitarian aid goes into the coffers of war lords and dictators

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Dream on.

Capitalism, or at least the free market, is as old as humankind (at least once humankind developed basic mathematics). It isn’t going away in 200 years.

That isn’t true. Capitalism isn’t that old at all, it’s only existed for about 300 years. It was only made possible with the development of socialized labour and improvements in technology. Earlier modes of production were not capitalist.

Are the CCCP, China and North Korea really societies more admirable than capitalism? Would you desire, if allowed, to live in NK or China?

No, but the majority of the arguments for socialism are rooted in capitalism. Socialism will only stop being relevant once capitalism stops entering into crises, which is impossible because they’re brought out due to inherent elements of capitalism. Like all other modes of production, capitalism will eventually become redundant. Quicker than most, considering how volatile it is.

There are lots of reasons those other socialist nations are undesirable. Some of it is due perhaps to ideological errors perhaps, but there are also material factors to consider that proponents of capitalism never do. There was a reason Engels and Marx thought socialism would first have to occur in more economically developed nations, and a reason they thought it would have to occur globally. Neither of these things were achieved, but I do believe that if socialism had won in a more developed nation like Germany or the US, we would now be living in a socialist world.

Capitalism is self regulating because the producer needs the consumer and vice versa. The innate venality that is in everybody is contained by the need to survive economically.

Early capitalism might be self-regulating, to an extent. Competition helped develop the productive forces and it probably operated more as right-libertarians imagine capitalism should operate. However, capitalism really has lost its progressive role with the growth of monopolies, something that is the inevitable end result of allowing individuals to accumulate capital.

I don’t think traits we associate with people under capitalism are inherent to people. They’re most likely a product of our economic system. Certainly people did not have the same mentality to work, daily life and economic class now as they did under feudalism, a different mode of production. Besides, socialism is in the interest of the majority of the population. If people are truly selfish, they should want it.

Socialism depends for its maintenance on a level of altruism that just isn’t human. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” encourages those of zero ability and high need, while those of high ability, who keep the system moving, are penalized. And who determines abilities and needs?

Well the idea is that once we reach an economy that operates according to that principle, we will have a society of superabundance. People will take what they need and give back what they can, based on their own judgement. The transitional state towards this economy will be operated based on “from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution.” None of us will live to see communism, the end economy that you’re describing, and presumably people will have an entirely different attitude to work, as they did under feudalism.

Finally, who do you trust to command the economy? Command implies force.

Economic decisions could be made democratically by the workers. That is, an economy run from the bottom-up instead of our current economy which is run top-down. I don’t know specifically what form this could take I’m afraid, but there are people with ideas.

 

[LilyM]

The Church, rightly so, condemns socialism. It always works great on paper but fails miserably in practice.

Go tell that to the Scandinavian countries, who somehow manage to combine a level.of taxation and governmental control of services that most Americans would definitely class as socialist with consistently incredibly high levels of material prosperity and, dare it be said, happiness (by pretty much every measure that can be used to measure such a thing.)

 

[YADA]

Go tell that to the Scandinavian countries, who somehow manage to combine a level.of taxation and governmental control of services that most Americans would definitely class as socialist with consistently incredibly high levels of material prosperity and, dare it be said, happiness (by pretty much every measure that can be used to measure such a thing.)

Businesses and markets in Scandinavian countries are capitalistic and not overly regulated nor protected and are not nationalized. Thus they function on a free market basis - In fact compared with American business climates - Iceland is ranked about equal in regulation and other key indicators … but is far smaller than the US economy … Finland and Denmark rank higher than the US in freedom for business, money, investment, & property.

As a measure of government spending to GNP … our country spends about 40% - Scandinavian countries about 46%

If those EU countries were ranked against US States they would not be numbered among our best … but ranked closer to the lowest states and Scandinavians have less income before and after taxes …

And Scandinavia is ahead of us in Euthanasia - practice and acceptance … something I guess - like abortion - is fine with some people, some political parties and politicians

frontpagemag.com/fpm/101480/does-scandinavian-socialism-work-steven-plaut

forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/02/18/bernie-sanders-scandinavian-utopia-is-an-illusion/#45d788703aa9

forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/10/memo-to-bernie-sanders-you-cant-have-scandinavian-socialism-without-taxing-the-middle-class/#4f969048762b

 

[SuperLuigi]

When you see all the poverty in Third-World countries while the elite grow fat, it’s hard to deny. It is us, the Western World, that takes resources from the poor countries, and pay next to nothing to the workers. Having 9,500 children dying each day of starvation, with few lifting a finger to help, is nothing less than barbaric on the part of capitalists. Child laborers are common, with nobody caring enough to stop this awful crime.

Have you ever been or stayed in a Third World country?

I have.

It’s the corruption that is the problem and the failure of feel-good persons in the First World to see what is really going that feeds the beast.

So as long as First World citizens are more interested in feeling good inside and scoring tolerance points, nothing will change. In fact, many First World nations themselves are on sliding downwards because of big government.

It may be in America to blame capitalism, even though college socialist groups there want to SELL things like T-shirts and papers, but the fact is capitalism is what built the First World, namely it’s infrastructure.

Furthermore, if not being capitalistic is good, why isn’t Cuba thriving?

And no, it’s not a form of slavery. In fact, it’s very much in tune with natural law and doesn’t a bunch of excuses or massive government intervention to work.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Go tell that to the Scandinavian countries, who somehow manage to combine a level.of taxation and governmental control of services that most Americans would definitely class as socialist with consistently incredibly high levels of material prosperity and, dare it be said, happiness (by pretty much every measure that can be used to measure such a thing.)

The only reason why those countries can do half of what they do is because America is their entire defense.

Just notice how jumpy they get every time a Russian jet closes in on their airspace.

Sweden has a large nuclear power operation and the Baltic countries and the UK mine the North Sea for oil.

So these nations also aren’t afraid to use energy resources, which are actually very profitable.

Also, if you’re referring to UN measurements of happiness, I’d be careful about that. There’s a lot of cultural change going on Scandinavia, and a lot of it isn’t for the better.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I think we can all agree, there may be a better alternative to capitalism, after all, in this world, GREED is the number one priority, something God is totally against.

Capitalism is the system that fuels the super greed related to the Christmas holiday, IDK about anyone else, but Id say God probably does not appreciate all the secular companies taking such advantage of a christian holiday for the sake of greed. Does anyone really believe God is totally ok with this?

It will be interesting to see what kind of system Jesus puts in place when he returns though!

Well, would God rather people out of work dependent on the deficit of the United States federal government instead of working just to prove a point about GREED that is actually more consumer-driven than anything else?

Speaking of which, do Americans realize that is their children’s money they are spending? A better question might be do they even care…

That may or not be greed, but it certainly isn’t responsible!

 

[YADA]

Our Lord does not hand out natural abilities and creature goods in a socialistic manner. Some people will be given more than others - they will be born in a country that fosters freedom or represses it. They will be born to educated financially well off families or poverty. They will have genius IQs or fall short … What we know is that Our Lord holds us account to take His gifts - in whatever measure he freely gives us - and use them. Not to remain stagnant but to earn a profit - to increase the God given wealth as it were. And from that we give back to God. We are stewards of all our God given talents and treasure - none of it springs from us.

And the early church had to deal with the socialist economy experiment - selling all and giving to the collective and as the 2nd coming did not come as soon as they initially thought - dealing with those who refused to work but then ate from the fruits of those who did. It may work in the short run … but long term - it is industry - that is people who risk capital and labor in order to produce goods and services that are necessary …

Also governments who dictate control that engine of prosperity do as much harm as greed on the parts of individuals. And Greed of course is a factor of the human condition - it occurs in capitalism, fascism, socialism and communism.

There has never been a Utopia on earth and I doubt there ever will. We can help those less fortunate and Christ calls us to do that - but we cannot rob them of their God given talent to work - at something - that is enslavement of their soul - sold to maintain the minimalist life … We are called to a life lived in abundance - not necessarily monetary wealth but a life lived in Christ … whether we are given 10 talents, 5 talents or 2 talents

From Matthew Chatter 25

14 “It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents;* to another, two; to a third, one—to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately 16
the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
17 Likewise, the one who received two made another two. 18 But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money. 19 After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five.* He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ 22 [Then] the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ 24 Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter; 25
so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’ 26
His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter? 27 Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
28 Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

From 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

6 We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. 7 For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you. 9 Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat. 11 We hear that some are conducting themselves among you in a disorderly way, by not keeping busy but minding the business of others. 12 Such people we instruct and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and to eat their own food. 13 But you, brothers, do not be remiss in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey our word as expressed in this letter, take note of this person not to associate with him, that he may be put to shame. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy but admonish him as a brother. 16 May the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you. 17 This greeting is in my own hand, Paul’s. This is the sign in every letter; this is how I write. 18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you.

 

[mikekle]

Well, would God rather people out of work dependent on the deficit of the United States federal government instead of working just to prove a point about GREED that is actually more consumer-driven than anything else?

Speaking of which, do Americans realize that is their children’s money they are spending? A better question might be do they even care…

That may or not be greed, but it certainly isn’t responsible!

Well, no they do not care, its pretty obvious we are creating a world for future generations where they will be in extreme debt, its basically the same thing as stealing money from your kids college fund to finance a night of wild partying and gambling.

What is comes down to, is greed is one of the 7 deadly sins, we know for a fact Jesus spoke out against it, how can we say greed is wrong for the individual, but totally fine for the big fortune 500 company?

 

[GEddie]

Well, no they do not care, its pretty obvious we are creating a world for future generations where they will be in extreme debt, its basically the same thing as stealing money from your kids college fund to finance a night of wild partying and gambling.

What is comes down to, is greed is one of the 7 deadly sins, we know for a fact Jesus spoke out against it, how can we say greed is wrong for the individual, but totally fine for the big fortune 500 company?

Because the Fortune 500 corporation is not a person (despite being a legal “body”) and so cannot commit sin.

The more money it earns, the more people it can hire, and so what would look like greed from someone in a human skin is seen as admirable from the corner offices of such a company.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

Because the Fortune 500 corporation is not a person (despite being a legal “body”) and so cannot commit sin.

The more money it earns, the more people it can hire, and so what would look like greed from someone in a human skin is seen as admirable from the corner offices of such a company.

ICXC NIKA

It surely melts out the inequality, which drives poverty.

 

[Cory]

Third World countries don’t have capitalism. They have very corrupt governments that oppress the people. Capitalism calls for less government not more.