Is Capitalism God-Ordained?

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Lost_Wanderer said:
Question: Is art free of competition? Of ambition? Desire? Quite frankly, the utopia your advocating is denying me a lot of rights that it’s a little disturbing. The need to improve, catch up, and innovate has long been a part of human civilization. That’s how it advances. Look at Thomas Edison, hailed by both tycoons and inventors alike because he was both. Correct me if I’m wrong but if we applied your logic all the way before humanity was full of hunter-gatherers, we wouldn’t even have invented the wheel. I mean who would care about creating something that made life all more productive.😉

But you know what? Feel free to diminish your own ambitions and desire to compete. The fewer players there are, the less people in the way. 👍 On the other hand, those of us who’d like to aspire a little higher don’t need your interference. You practice some art and some religion. Maybe that’s the goal you want in life. I on the other hand see my goal intertwined with climbing the ladder.
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I appreciate what you are saying. Isolated from evangelizing my statements just seem the sour grapes of an older person chastened once and again by the free market. An older person just recognizing that he should have listened to Adam Smith: the invisible hand of the market assuredly negates the quest of profit for most. And in our reality, the folks at the top, they will make the money up and down the line on your transactions.

BTW, art for its own sake is what I speak of, not art for fame and money.

As for your planned romantic quest, I cannot but applaud. I pray that your quest will end with the birth of beautiful children. I embarked on similar adventures in my day… it is not how I finally met my wife, but I have to thank God that he let me get through and find my way.
 
freeRadical said:
Sounds like the problem is government, maybe it wasn’t in our best interest for them to get in bed with business huh? The record of history is clear: the regulator always gets taken over by the regulated.

It seems to me you either don’t read my posts or don’t understand them.

I never said anything about corporations or shareholders. I don’t really care about them.

All I am talking about is free markets, free enterprise, and private ownership of the means of production.

Everything is not okay. The government got into bed with business and erroneously thought they could control business. They were wrong, the businesses control them. That is how it always happens. The regulator always gets taken over by the regulated.

The government thinks it can steer the economy, steer supply and demand, steer production and consumption, steer savings and investment, and steer interest rates with no adverse effects. They were wrong.

The government created this mess, not the free market. And you think they can fix it or make things better?

Hayek said it best, “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they know about what they imagine they can design”.
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Since you apparently recognize that many giant corporations are rigging the horrible status quo for their own interests, I would like you to look at boycotting the ones you feel are the most egregious. It can be hard, generally they will be making integral products and services, and through scale they likely have the lowest price for you, on paper. But at least vote with your dollars…

Right now all we have with the Tea Party, is people like y’all, sitting around blaming a bunch of yes men and 9-to-5’ers in public service. Meanwhile we have trillions of dollars transferred from legitimate use through attorneys to offshore accounts, at the same time the government runs a deficit for basic needs, and people who fifty years ago would have had a union job are forced to become freelancers and pay all of their own costs. Please God help these gentlemen to see what they are not seeing.
 
Abu said:
False. Socialism is condemned. “Communitarianism” is unworkable.

Free enterprise is “endorsed” by St John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. Why?

Because in Matthew 25:14-30, we find Jesus’ Parable of the Talents in which Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30). Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.
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Once again you have taken to twisting the Word of our Lord for your earthly ends. Matthew 25 contains no Parable of Talents as you revise.

Please, will our readers look at Matthew 25? The chapter tells the story of how Jesus explained the Kingdom of Heaven by analogy. God was the master of an estate, and left three servants in charge of bags of gold. Jesus was using the bags of gold as an analogy for the spiritual gifts God gave us. We are not to squander them, lest we shalt finally be ajudged to Hell.

As for you Abu, I pray that your transgression in favor of pontificating for man’s rights to pursue gold without interference, is an exception.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
Since you apparently recognize that many giant corporations are rigging the horrible status quo for their own interests, I would like you to look at boycotting the ones you feel are the most egregious. It can be hard, generally they will be making integral products and services, and through scale they likely have the lowest price for you, on paper. But at least vote with your dollars…
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The only reason these corporations can “rig” the status quo is because the government allows them too.
Right now all we have with the Tea Party, is people like y’all, sitting around blaming a bunch of yes men and 9-to-5’ers in public service.
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Of course I blame the government, the blame lies squarely at their feet. I don’t necessarily blame government workers but I do blame politicians, the Fed, and people that think they can steer the market and economy with no adverse effects.

Oh, and I’m not a Tea Partier. You shouldn’t make unfounded assumptions.
Meanwhile we have trillions of dollars transferred from legitimate use through attorneys to offshore accounts,
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What does that have to do with Capitalism?
at the same time the government runs a deficit for basic needs,
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What basic needs is the government providing? The government runs a deficit because they waste money on stupid stuff.
and people who fifty years ago would have had a union job are forced to become freelancers and pay all of their own costs.
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Oh, you don’t want to hear my thoughts on unions. People paying for their own costs? How horrible. It must be terrible to be a regular person like the rest of us.

It seems you are equating Corporatism and Capitalism. They are not the same thing. This thread is about a specific economic system, Capitalism.
 
freeRadical said:
Well, finally, something we can agree on.
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😃 … yes, I hate government bureaucracy… it’s just that the giant corporations get a pass because they are ostensibly in private hands, and a necessary part of a free economy. That is why, I feel obligated to point out their deficiencies and leave the well-worn chiding of government to others.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
😃 … yes, I hate government bureaucracy… it’s just that the giant corporations get a pass because they are ostensibly in private hands, and a necessary part of a free economy. That is why, I feel obligated to point out their deficiencies and leave the well-worn chiding of government to others.
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Well, this is where I have to disagree with you.

The giant corporations don’t get a pass because they are in private hands, they get a pass because the government and Fed gives them one.

There is nothing wrong with private ownership of the means of production. Would you rather they be owned by the State?
 
freeRadical said:
Well, this is where I have to disagree with you.

The giant corporations don’t get a pass because they are in private hands, they get a pass because the government and Fed gives them one.

There is nothing wrong with private ownership of the means of production. Would you rather they be owned by the State?
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No, I am not advocating that… and I thought the Fed etc were supposed to let them be free… now you are faulting them for doing nothing.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
No, I am not advocating that… and I thought the Fed etc were supposed to let them be free… now you are faulting them for doing nothing.
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I’m faulting the Fed for creating the environment we are in, the Fed has done more than nothing.
 
freeRadical said:
I’m faulting the Fed for creating the environment we are in, the Fed has done more than nothing.
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Yeah… Greenspan always got a free pass but he was actually the start of the real trouble. Him under Clinton… Anyone with half a brain would have known that when the deficit closed at the end of nineties it was transitory, that endemically we were not out of the woods. But they were already trying to extrapolate the trendline for the next ten years. How they papered over shockwaves from Asian tigers in summer of 1998, is simply one of the most deceitful games ever played on the American psyche.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
Yeah… Greenspan always got a free pass but he was actually the start of the real trouble. Him under Clinton… Anyone with half a brain would have known that when the deficit closed at the end of nineties it was transitory, that endemically we were not out of the woods. But they were already trying to extrapolate the trendline for the next ten years. How they papered over shockwaves from Asian tigers in summer of 1998, is simply one of the most deceitful games ever played on the American psyche.
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The trouble started with the Federal Reserve Act.
 
freeRadical said:
The trouble started with the Federal Reserve Act.
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😃 … can’t argue that… I do agree they have only prolonged and exacerbated the booms and busts. The Panic of 1908 that they were so worried about, was hard but brief. There were actually worse, systemic failures during the late 19th century.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
😃 … can’t argue that… I do agree they have only prolonged and exacerbated the booms and busts. The Panic of 1908 that they were so worried about, was hard but brief. There were actually worse, systemic failures during the late 19th century.
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So are you saying that doing something to try to avoid the boom-and-bust pattern of the 1800’s was wrong? After the Panic of 1908, it took over twenty years for another Panic to occur and that was not the fault of the Federal Reserve. They have made some serious moves since then that have been judged beneficial. They have also made some serious mistakes. They are not perfect, and each mistake has been an opportunity to learn. Alan Greenspan has said that fear was not prominent in the thinking of the Federal Reserve. But after the housing debacle, he realized that this omission was a mistake.
 
magnet said:
So are you saying that doing something to try to avoid the boom-and-bust pattern of the 1800’s was wrong? After the Panic of 1908, it took over twenty years for another Panic to occur and that was not the fault of the Federal Reserve. They have made some serious moves since then that have been judged beneficial. They have also made some serious mistakes. They are not perfect, and each mistake has been an opportunity to learn. Alan Greenspan has said that fear was not prominent in the thinking of the Federal Reserve. But after the housing debacle, he realized that this omission was a mistake.
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What moves have they made that have been judged beneficial? And judged beneficial by who?

The problem is the Fed doesn’t learn from its mistakes and every time they make a mistake they are given more power and latitude.

Even Ben Bernanke admitted the Great Depression was the Fed’s fault.
 
freeRadical said:
What moves have they made that have been judged beneficial? And judged beneficial by who?

The problem is the Fed doesn’t learn from its mistakes and every time they make a mistake they are given more power and latitude.

Even Ben Bernanke admitted the Great Depression was the Fed’s fault.
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September 11, 2001
September 11, 2001
The effectiveness of the Federal Reserve as a central bank was put to the test on September 11, 2001 as the terrorist attacks on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania disrupted U.S. financial markets. The Fed issued a short statement reminiscent of its announcement in 1987: “The Federal Reserve System is open and operating. The discount window is available to meet liquidity needs.” In the days that followed, the Fed lowered interest rates and loaned more that $45 billion to financial institutions in order to provide stability to the U.S. economy. By the end of September, Fed lending had returned to pre- September 11 levels and a potential liquidity crunch had been averted. The Fed played the pivotal role in dampening the effects of the September 11 attacks on U.S. financial markets.
 
magnet said:
September 11, 2001
September 11, 2001
The effectiveness of the Federal Reserve as a central bank was put to the test on September 11, 2001 as the terrorist attacks on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania disrupted U.S. financial markets. The Fed issued a short statement reminiscent of its announcement in 1987: “The Federal Reserve System is open and operating. The discount window is available to meet liquidity needs.” In the days that followed, the Fed lowered interest rates and loaned more that $45 billion to financial institutions in order to provide stability to the U.S. economy. By the end of September, Fed lending had returned to pre- September 11 levels and a potential liquidity crunch had been averted. The Fed played the pivotal role in dampening the effects of the September 11 attacks on U.S. financial markets.
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That doesn’t prove anything. We don’t know what would have happened to the economy if the Fed hadn’t done that. It is all speculation.
 
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