Is Capitalism God-Ordained?

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

What is the difference between a regulation and a law?

Since the sole role of a government is to preserve our rights and since rights only have meaning in a social context, it is the role of a government to establish laws.

Laws rarely need to change over time. Unless a fundamental change occurs in the nature of man or of society laws do not need to change. This is the reason for measures such as checks and balances, separation of powers etc… in good political theory.

Regulations are a set of rules intended to make things regular. They are highly dependent on context (both in their formulation and in their use). Government is completely unsuited to either formulate or enforce them.

Regulations are created and enforced by the particular set of individuals who need them. More importantly, when a government enforces regulations, it necessarily violates our rights to judge what is in our best interests.

 

[ThomasJMullally]

Most other countries also have higher costs of living and higher taxation then the US. Europe is about to implode on itself, especially if something goes wrong with Germany and Germany isn’t looking top good right now.

Yes, perhaps the Germans are tired of working like automatons too. Hyper-specialization is effiicient on paper, but it causes burn-out.

Let me ask you fellers about spending such a huge amount on defense. Isn’t this mostly corporate welfare? Our budget is bigger than next ten nations combined, and we can’t even really whip down the Taliban et al. We are leaving South Asia, maybe a trillion bucks down the tube and nothing to show.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Yes, perhaps the Germans are tired of working like automatons too. Hyper-specialization is effiicient on paper, but it causes burn-out.

Let me ask you fellers about spending such a huge amount on defense. Isn’t this mostly corporate welfare? Our budget is bigger than next ten nations combined, and we can’t even really whip down the Taliban et al. We are leaving South Asia, maybe a trillion bucks down the tube and nothing to show.

That is a great question, Tom. But I think it should have its own thread. If I go off on defense now I will never get God to exclusively endorse Capitalism.

 

[Seraphim73]

I agree with you there. The pivotal point where Bush could have been a leader, was not to save Bear Stearns. Everybody knew for two to three years that they were on the ropes. So it would have been hard, but we would have recovered three years sooner.

I don’t think the fall would have been any worse but I also don’t think that would have shortened the recovery. The recovery has been so anemic because of massive tax increases and massive new regulations. It’s just a truism that the more you tax something the less of it you will get.

What I am saying is, we have the dominant corporations representing capitalism in the driver’s seat instead of as a humble partner. It is considered so much priority to curry business that the corporations have carte blanche and all other priorities go by the wayside. This is all fine for the people at the “business roundtable” (you probably think I am a socialist but I loved Pat Buchanan). But the average guy has been steadily bilked and indentured. This is all happening under a less regulated economy since the 80’s-- government is subsumed by business interests. Politicians and government contracts are bought and sold like baseball cards. So you can’t tell me that the problem is, that deregulation didn’t go far enough!

Don’t be so sure lol. I’ll quote my hero Milton Friedman, “Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" People are people whether they work in the private sector of the government sector. Why do you think people in government are going to somehow magically work for your interest instead of their own. Where are these angels that can keep corporations in line?

The best protection we have against corporate abuses is the free market where there are no restrictions on who can go into what kind of business or what they sell or how much they sell it for. You do realize that most government regulations and moves to have professional licensure are made by the businesses or people who are already in that trade? Why? It’s done to keep out competition. Look at the Interstate Commerce Commission. It was used for decades to keep competition out of the trucking business. Who do you think benefited from that regulation? Was it the consumer? Absolutely not. It was those who had licenses to run trucks and who were able to charge much higher rates than if there was open competition.

So then the real question is how do we prevent business from gaining so much influence in Washington? First of all you have to drastically reduce the size and scope of government. Right now these corporations spend all this money on lobbyist because there is a lot to be gained. If Washington no longer has the power to give out all these goodies it will no longer be in the interest of the corporations to spend money there. Now, for the million dollar question. How do we reduce the size and scope of government? The answer is very simple but very difficult to achieve. Remember, people are always people, including politicians. They are going to pursue their self interest just like everyone else. The way we shrink government is by making it politically profitable for politicians to do so. That will take years and a concerted effort to teach our fellow citizens about the benefits of freedom and small government and persuade them to vote that way. If we could acheive that magically, practically overnight politicians would be voting left and right to shrink government because their own reelection would depend on it.

 

[ThomasJMullally]

That is a great question, Tom. But I think it should have its own thread. If I go off on defense now I will never get God to exclusively endorse Capitalism.

Well, you know where I am on that, but was curious to hear you reconcile… guess I will wait until they make me really sign up for this service…

 

[Seraphim73]

How does the church explain entitlement? According to much of what I read, if you are poor, you deserve to be supported. You may have nothing to trade with — no labor, no skill, no expertise — and not be able

So you mean the physically and mentally disabled?

 

[Seraphim73]

Exactly-- in the absence of any moral standard at the bank, what is wrong with a lawmaker, who works full-time anyway, at least making a guideline that protects the consumer?

What makes you think a lawmaker is either capable of or actually intending to protect the consumer.

 

[Seraphim73]

The government doesn’t want to keep up with them. This is what the Fed wants. Cheap credit and massive borrowing and spending. The only thing the Fed is concerned with is inflation, as long as inflation is below their “magic” number, they could care less about anything else.

And only certain types of inflation at that. With QE one, two and three or however many times now they are creating a colossally huge bubble in the stock market. Stocks are drastically over valued. The bubble is going to burst and quite possibly throw us back into another recession. The correction is coming, it is inevitable. And when it does it’s not going to be pretty. And yet again we’ll have an economic crisis caused by bad government policy.

 

[ThomasJMullally]

I don’t think the fall would have been any worse but I also don’t think that would have shortened the recovery. The recovery has been so anemic because of massive tax increases and massive new regulations. It’s just a truism that the more you tax something the less of it you will get.

Don’t be so sure lol. I’ll quote my hero Milton Friedman, “Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" People are people whether they work in the private sector of the government sector. Why do you think people in government are going to somehow magically work for your interest instead of their own. Where are these angels that can keep corporations in line?

The best protection we have against corporate abuses is the free market where there are no restrictions on who can go into what kind of business or what they sell or how much they sell it for. You do realize that most government regulations and moves to have professional licensure are made by the businesses or people who are already in that trade? Why? It’s done to keep out competition. Look at the Interstate Commerce Commission. It was used for decades to keep competition out of the trucking business. Who do you think benefited from that regulation? Was it the consumer? Absolutely not. It was those who had licenses to run trucks and who were able to charge much higher rates than if there was open competition.

So then the real question is how do we prevent business from gaining so much influence in Washington? First of all you have to drastically reduce the size and scope of government. Right now these corporations spend all this money on lobbyist because there is a lot to be gained. If Washington no longer has the power to give out all these goodies it will no longer be in the interest of the corporations to spend money there. Now, for the million dollar question. How do we reduce the size and scope of government? The answer is very simple but very difficult to achieve. Remember, people are always people, including politicians. They are going to pursue their self interest just like everyone else. The way we shrink government is by making it politically profitable for politicians to do so. That will take years and a concerted effort to teach our fellow citizens about the benefits of freedom and small government and persuade them to vote that way. If we could acheive that magically, practically overnight politicians would be voting left and right to shrink government because their own reelection would depend on it.

I agree with all of that. The vested interests are working hand in glove, or as I like to say, they are “intertwined” with the government.

So there you have it ZC and freeRad-- the giant corporations, or the “means of production in private hands”, “accountable to shareholders”, or every other concept that is used to imagine they must be good for us while all governmental entities are bad… well, they are using the government for their own purposes and it is proving almost impossible to reverse. If you assume all is OK because we have widgets produced by private enterprise, you do not see the most important concentrations of power that are gumming up the system at the expense of the vast majority.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What humankind needs to figure out (and quick), is a way to get happiness from less stuff. A first step is to quell all ambitions, and a next step is stop wringing our hands about employment, about “productivity”. Stop the false competitions… Start some art, practice some religion… Why should people be working so hard? All these capitalists on here, they are working so hard, but why? To accumulate a bunch of chintzy, disposable junk made in China, and a small pile of paper money that is just a pile of paper when their last day arrives? And the world should follow… Misery loves company!

Question: Is art free of competition? Of ambition? Desire? Quite frankly, the utopia your advocating is denying me a lot of rights that it’s a little disturbing. The need to improve, catch up, and innovate has long been a part of human civilization. That’s how it advances. Look at Thomas Edison, hailed by both tycoons and inventors alike because he was both. Correct me if I’m wrong but if we applied your logic all the way before humanity was full of hunter-gatherers, we wouldn’t even have invented the wheel. I mean who would care about creating something that made life all more productive.

But you know what? Feel free to diminish your own ambitions and desire to compete. The fewer players there are, the less people in the way. On the other hand, those of us who’d like to aspire a little higher don’t need your interference. You practice some art and some religion. Maybe that’s the goal you want in life. I on the other hand see my goal intertwined with climbing the ladder.

And no, I think you’re being tad bit overgeneralizing when you think those who climb are doing it for ‘disposable junk made in China’ or ‘a small pile of paper.’ (In my case, I’m doing it to chase down a girl who’s left the country.)

So you mean the physically and mentally disabled?

Not to mention the fact that these people hardly make up most of the working population. If everyone was on the disabled list, we’d have a real crisis on our hands!

 

[minkymurph]

Peace be with you,

In my experience, Catholics and other Christians are unanimously in favor of capitalism and view all alternatives as anti-Christian. I was wondering if anyone could explain this to me? What is Christ-like about capitalism? Is it the only Church-approved economic system? Why do you think is there so much greed, corruption, poverty and social inequality in capitalist societies? I’m just looking for some explanations, because I’ve never had a fellow Catholic explain why they believe capitalism is ideal. Scripture and catechism citations in support of capitalism would be great! Thank you and blessings.

The human race can justify pretty much anything on the ground God approves because we like to console ourselves God approves of what we think. If someone supports capitalism they will argue so does the Church. If someone leans towards Socialist theories they will argue that.

Capitalism, Socialism, Libertariaism, Communitarianism, Perfectionism etc. etc. are the theories of humans. None of them are God-ordained and none of them are either condemned or endorsed by the Church. Some will argue as a theory capitalism is the most compatible with Catholicism, but this view focuses purely on ownership of private property and little else. Certainly the Church spoke out against communism, but on the ground it was atheistic, not because it was an anti-God economic theory. If people voluntarily choose to practice collective ownership it is highly unlikely God disapproves. That said, God does not condemn riches. What God condemns is greed and accumulation of riches to the unnecessary detriment of others - as does his Church.

 

[Seraphim73]

I agree with all of that. The vested interests are working hand in glove, or as I like to say, they are “intertwined” with the government.

So there you have it ZC and freeRad-- the giant corporations, or the “means of production in private hands”, “accountable to shareholders”, or every other concept that is used to imagine they must be good for us while all governmental entities are bad… well, they are using the government for their own purposes and it is proving almost impossible to reverse. If you assume all is OK because we have widgets produced by private enterprise, you do not see the most important concentrations of power that are gumming up the system at the expense of the vast majority.

It’s not a matter of an entity being good or bad for us. Government is good and necessary when confined to it’s proper functions. Business is good when it is honest and abides by it’s contractual obligations. But what makes all this possible is confining the law to it’s only legitimate function. Protecting our individual rights.

 

[freeRadical]

Yes and yes.

And?

 

[freeRadical]

Since the sole role of a government is to preserve our rights and since rights only have meaning in a social context, it is the role of a government to establish laws.

Laws rarely need to change over time. Unless a fundamental change occurs in the nature of man or of society laws do not need to change. This is the reason for measures such as checks and balances, separation of powers etc… in good political theory.

Regulations are a set of rules intended to make things regular. They are highly dependent on context (both in their formulation and in their use). Government is completely unsuited to either formulate or enforce them.

Regulations are created and enforced by the particular set of individuals who need them. More importantly, when a government enforces regulations, it necessarily violates our rights to judge what is in our best interests.

Semantics, nothing but semantics. You just don’t like the word regulation. If regulations aren’t laws then how can they be enforced?

 

[Abu]

minkymurph #309
Capitalism, Socialism, Libertariaism, Communitarianism, Perfectionism etc. etc. are the theories of humans. None of them are God-ordained and none of them are either condemned or endorsed by the Church.
Some will argue as a theory capitalism is the most compatible with Catholicism, but this view focuses purely on ownership of private property and little else.

False. Socialism is condemned. “Communitarianism” is unworkable.

Free enterprise is “endorsed” by St John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. Why?

Because in Matthew 25:14-30, we find Jesus’ Parable of the Talents in which Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30). Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.

Free enterprise economic development started in the great Catholic monastic estates of the ninth century, and a solid basis of economic Catholic thought developed from the fourteenth century. In the fifteenth century the Late Scholastics who were Thomists (followers of St Thomas) “writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social; organization.” They “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists. (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 8).

 

[freeRadical]

Yes, perhaps the Germans are tired of working like automatons too. Hyper-specialization is effiicient on paper, but it causes burn-out.

Let me ask you fellers about spending such a huge amount on defense. Isn’t this mostly corporate welfare? Our budget is bigger than next ten nations combined, and we can’t even really whip down the Taliban et al. We are leaving South Asia, maybe a trillion bucks down the tube and nothing to show.

Defense spending is only about $600 billion a year. It is about a third of federal revenue, but it is not the biggest thing the government spends revenue on. That would be transfer payments.

I don’t really have a problem with defense spending because it is specifically outlined in the Constitution that the government can raise a military.

What I do have a problem with is how much stupid stuff the government wastes money on.

 

[freeRadical]

And only certain types of inflation at that. With QE one, two and three or however many times now they are creating a colossally huge bubble in the stock market. Stocks are drastically over valued. The bubble is going to burst and quite possibly throw us back into another recession. The correction is coming, it is inevitable. And when it does it’s not going to be pretty. And yet again we’ll have an economic crisis caused by bad government policy.

In the econ department at my university, we had a running joke when QE4 came out. The professors started calling it QE infinity.

 

[freeRadical]

I agree with all of that. The vested interests are working hand in glove, or as I like to say, they are “intertwined” with the government.

Sounds like the problem is government, maybe it wasn’t in our best interest for them to get in bed with business huh? The record of history is clear: the regulator always gets taken over by the regulated.

So there you have it ZC and freeRad-- the giant corporations, or the “means of production in private hands”, “accountable to shareholders”, or every other concept that is used to imagine they must be good for us while all governmental entities are bad… well, they are using the government for their own purposes and it is proving almost impossible to reverse. If you assume all is OK because we have widgets produced by private enterprise, you do not see the most important concentrations of power that are gumming up the system at the expense of the vast majority.

It seems to me you either don’t read my posts or don’t understand them.

I never said anything about corporations or shareholders. I don’t really care about them.

All I am talking about is free markets, free enterprise, and private ownership of the means of production.

Everything is not okay. The government got into bed with business and erroneously thought they could control business. They were wrong, the businesses control them. That is how it always happens. The regulator always gets taken over by the regulated.

The government thinks it can steer the economy, steer supply and demand, steer production and consumption, steer savings and investment, and steer interest rates with no adverse effects. They were wrong.

The government created this mess, not the free market. And you think they can fix it or make things better?

Hayek said it best, “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they know about what they imagine they can design”.

 

[Seraphim73]

In the econ department at my university, we had a running joke when QE4 came out. The professors started calling it QE infinity.

One would think we would have learned our lesson in the 70’s. Apparently not.

 

[freeRadical]

One would think we would have learned our lesson in the 70’s. Apparently not.

The Fed never learns its lesson.