Is Capitalism God-Ordained?

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ThomasJMullally said:
Yes, it was identical. We need bold thinking at this point. Dodd-Frank was just the next fiasco. The move should have been, disband the SEC and start over, like they did with Homeland Security. Instead they made things even worse. Still we have no small guys really protected, so small guys have just (rationally) withdrawn from investing.
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Forty years ago, i was a “small guy”. I realized that there is a risk to every action. I weighed the risk and returns of opening a government-insured savings account in a bank vs. investing in a non-insured mutual fund whose risk was higher and whose returns were better. By working for a mutual funds company and reading books on “How to manage your money”, I learned quite a bit. So over the years, I lifted myself from being flat broke in 1975 to being able to live in comfort in my retirement years. I also lived conservatively (no expensive vacations, no new cars, no $1,000 stereo systems). Anybody can do this if they work at it.
 
freeRadical said:
Do you understand what the word voluntary means? If people are forced to trade or feel like they are forced to trade, then that isn’t voluntary trade is it? I was specifically talking about voluntary trade. When two people voluntarily trade, they are both better off and wealth is created.
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There is no way to define what you are saying. We have established however, that there are many transactions between private parties in our system, that are completed under duress. This duress is caused by the materialism, productivism, overwrought human ambitions, you name it, but all of these things are only encouraged not discouraged under our economic system.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
There is no way to define what you are saying. We have established however, that there are many transactions between private parties in our system, that are completed under duress. This duress is caused by the materialism, productivism, overwrought human ambitions, you name it, but all of these things are only encouraged not discouraged under our economic system.
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There is no way to define voluntary? I’m pretty sure that word is very well-defined. If duress or pressure is involved, then it isn’t voluntary, plain and simple.

No, these things are not encouraged by our economic system, they are encouraged by government policy, both fiscal and monetary, an oppressive and burdensome tax code, and a broke financial system.
 
freeRadical said:
There is no way to define voluntary? I’m pretty sure that word is very well-defined. If duress or pressure is involved, then it isn’t voluntary, plain and simple.

No, these things are not encouraged by our economic system, they are encouraged by government policy, both fiscal and monetary, an oppressive and burdensome tax code, and a broke financial system.
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Let me put it this way: “our economic system as practiced by our society” . But not all of the problems are caused by inept government bureaucrats. There are many other problems that are happening completely within private sector. Like we have agreed a couple of pages earlier: if man was moral and upright the markets could be great, until then we have to be on guard and help the defenseless.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
Hallejujah! Now we are getting somewhere… 🙂
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WOW, Tom…what changed your mind??? 👍
Originally Posted by ThomasJMullally View Post
… Politicians and government contracts are bought and sold like baseball cards. So you can’t tell me that the problem is, that deregulation didn’t go far enough!
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A Free Market ceases to exist with the first regulation.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
Let me put it this way: “our economic system as practiced by our society” . But not all of the problems are caused by inept government bureaucrats. There are many other problems that are happening completely within private sector. Like we have agreed a couple of pages earlier: if man was moral and upright the markets could be great, until then we have to be on guard and help the defenseless.
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What problems are happening in the private sector?
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
WOW, Tom…what changed your mind??? 👍

A Free Market ceases to exist with the first regulation.
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Me?! … I could swear you were making the case that capitalism was God-ordained at the beginning of this.

And I suppose you would let corporations each print their own currency… oops, regulation. Not report the numbers of share they have outstanding, or be obligated to transmit information in the open to all shareholders… ooops massive regulation…

Striving for a perfection of ideals in earthly matters, that is the same thing Pol Pot did.
 
freeRadical said:
What problems are happening in the private sector?
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Well, I feel that whatever I complain about, such as the subprime mortgages, will involve a big bad boogie man of a federal agency forgetting the jump in the middle of it. Or not jump in the middle of it, as the case may be. (Only a fraction of subprime was passed off to Fannie and Freddie.) Meanwhile the government has to dig us out with giant pooper-scoopers on the back end… 🙂
 
freeRadical said:
You can still have a free market with government regulation, they are not mutually exclusive.
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Think about that for a minute…

If you have to ask permission (license, permit, compliance, etc) you are not FREE.

Government can enforce objective laws justly. But a “regulation” that favors one business over another or provides the slightest advantage to some turns a Free Market into a “controlled market.”

A controlled market is a mixture of freedom and controls—with no principles, rules, or theories to define either.

Since the introduction of controls necessitates and leads to further controls, it is an unstable, explosive mixture which, ultimately, has to repeal the controls or collapse into dictatorship.
 
ThomasJMullally said:
Me?! … I could swear you were making the case that capitalism was God-ordained at the beginning of this.

And I suppose you would let corporations each print their own currency… oops, regulation. Not report the numbers of share they have outstanding, or be obligated to transmit information in the open to all shareholders… ooops massive regulation…

Striving for a perfection of ideals in earthly matters, that is the same thing Pol Pot did.
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Corporations DO print their own currency. Its called stock certificates or bonds. Most are worth more than the “play” money printed by the government.

If investors demanded to know the number of shares a company had outstanding…that company had better provide an honest answer or there wouldn’t be any investment.

Likewise a company that did not transmit information in the open to all shareholders would soon lose all of its shareholders.

A Free Market takes care of itself.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Think about that for a minute…

If you have to ask permission (license, permit, compliance, etc) you are not FREE.

Government can enforce objective laws justly. But a “regulation” that favors one business over another or provides the slightest advantage to some turns a Free Market into a “controlled market.”

A controlled market is a mixture of freedom and controls—with no principles, rules, or theories to define either.

Since the introduction of controls necessitates and leads to further controls, it is an unstable, explosive mixture which, ultimately, has to repeal the controls or collapse into dictatorship.
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I think lawmakers need to do a lot more repealing and dismantling than they are doing, which is none at all. At the same time, the corporations are infected with a lack of responsibility and humility. How do we check their appetites? Maybe we should make them go to church… 🙂
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Think about that for a minute…

If you have to ask permission (license, permit, compliance, etc) you are not FREE.

Government can enforce objective laws justly. But a “regulation” that favors one business over another or provides the slightest advantage to some turns a Free Market into a “controlled market.”

A controlled market is a mixture of freedom and controls—with no principles, rules, or theories to define either.

Since the introduction of controls necessitates and leads to further controls, it is an unstable, explosive mixture which, ultimately, has to repeal the controls or collapse into dictatorship.
Click to expand...
A free market assumes complete transparency on information. If all trading were done with nothing to hide and complete understanding by the participants in the transactions, that would be really free. But that is in an ideal world. We cannot know everything about the items we are trading, and we can’t be all knowing in the consequences of the trading acts. If one buys an apple from a fruit peddler, there is little that one needs to know. If one buys a used car from a salesman on a lot, there is a lot that one needs to know. Making a wise trade is difficult in the latter case and much simpler in the former.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
Think about that for a minute…

If you have to ask permission (license, permit, compliance, etc) you are not FREE.

Government can enforce objective laws justly. But a “regulation” that favors one business over another or provides the slightest advantage to some turns a Free Market into a “controlled market.”

A controlled market is a mixture of freedom and controls—with no principles, rules, or theories to define either.

Since the introduction of controls necessitates and leads to further controls, it is an unstable, explosive mixture which, ultimately, has to repeal the controls or collapse into dictatorship.
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Is a truth in lending law an objective law? Should banks be required to disclose their terms in writing before the contract is signed?
 
ThomasJMullally said:
I think lawmakers need to do a lot more repealing and dismantling than they are doing, which is none at all. At the same time, the corporations are infected with a lack of responsibility and humility. How do we check their appetites? Maybe we should make them go to church… 🙂
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A corporation that lacks responsibility will not last long…unless it can rely on government intervention. (GM is a good example)

Humility can’t really apply to a corporation in a competitive market.

Why check appetites? Hungry corporations work harder to please consumers. They become more profitable. employ more people and provide better products at better prices for all.
 
Zoltan_Cobalt said:
If investors demanded to know the number of shares a company had outstanding…that company had better provide an honest answer or there wouldn’t be any investment.

Likewise a company that did not transmit information in the open to all shareholders would soon lose all of its shareholders.
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Have you ever heard of Enron or Worldcom?
A Free Market takes care of itself.
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Have you ever heard of market failures?
 
ThomasJMullally said:
Well, I feel that whatever I complain about, such as the subprime mortgages, will involve a big bad boogie man of a federal agency forgetting the jump in the middle of it. Or not jump in the middle of it, as the case may be. (Only a fraction of subprime was passed off to Fannie and Freddie.) Meanwhile the government has to dig us out with giant pooper-scoopers on the back end… 🙂
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Well, you would be right, seeing as most of the problems in the private sector are the result of government mismanagement.
 
magnet said:
A free market assumes complete transparency on information. If all trading were done with nothing to hide and complete understanding by the participants in the transactions, that would be really free. But that is in an ideal world. We cannot know everything about the items we are trading, and we can’t be all knowing in the consequences of the trading acts. If one buys an apple from a fruit peddler, there is little that one needs to know. If one buys a used car from a salesman on a lot, there is a lot that one needs to know. Making a wise trade is difficult in the latter case and much simpler in the former.
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Yes, more dollars in play with the car. Gosh did I look at a clunker yesterday… 🙂 .

Nowadays, the slickest marketing and websites are a bad sign, a sign you will pay up front and receive nothing. Small-time, fast-buck chicanery is everywhere-- a hardworking car mechanic is forced to try and sell a car to me that still needs major work, to pay his overhead now. The overhead comes in quicker for business than the sales, and otherwise honest people are led into chicanery. Pressure to stay on the treadmill… Meanwhile, trillions of bucks are being held in giant global investment pools only to be negotiated out in ten million dollar increments.

Something is terribly wrong, and it wasn’t engineered by the government.
 
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