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tonyrey
Guest
Whatever happened in the past, Robert, the present state of the world demonstrates that capitalism is certainly not working for one third of the human race.
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o_mlly
Guest
If not the UK and USA then which societies do you refer to as the most successful?
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o_mlly
Guest
No. You infer incorrectly. Your statement boldly indicated our charity be directed to the poor whose lot is " **through no fault of their own… **." I’m simply asking you to comment on what is owed to the poor whose lot is their own fault.
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Abu
Guest
Free enterprise is one of the most Christian endeavours in which caring human beings can engage. Here is Jesus of Nazareth as He lauds the free enterprise which so many Catholic Popes and greats have understood and praised.
The parable of the Talents ‘primarily teaches that God’s gifts, of nature and especially of grace, are held in stewardship and must not be allowed to lie idle. They are to be used to further His kingdom. It emerges, secondarily, that the standard of God’s judgment is relative to the opportunities offered: ‘the greater the gifts, the greater the account demanded’ (Gregory the Great).” A Catholic Commentary On Holy Scripture, ed. Dom Bernard Orchard, Thomas Nelson, 1953].
The secondary meaning is beautifully explained by Fr Percy:
- “There is the emphasis on the ‘talent’, which is a measure of value.
- “The trading activity of the two stewards is important. Christ praises them for the energy, alertness, and perseverance they demonstrate in making a truly significant profit (they have doubled the original sum). There is a reference to accountability which is crucial to any business.
- “Then the nuanced criticism of fear: ‘I was afraid, and I went off and hid your talent in the ground.’ This fear leads the lazy steward to avoid the risks and obstacles that are a key part of entrepreneurial work.
- “There is the clear reference to the financial system. The lazy steward at least could have placed the ‘money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.’ ”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].
The Church’s teaching on social/economic questions is the only coherent teaching for mankind of all religions or groups.
Not only has free enterprise raised the welfare of untold millions out of poverty, but is emphatically affirmed by Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 42, 1991. How does free enterprise raise welfare? As welfare = something that aids or promotes well-being/a contented state of being happy and healthy and prosperous, the answer is obvious. That untold millions have benefited is unchallengeable.
Free enterprise has, with the development of the economic laws of cause and effect by the Catholic Late Scholastics based on faith and reason, from the 14th to the 17th century, enabled the enrichment of untold millions from the poverty existing before the enterprises that came with the “Industrial Revolution”. Without the great contribution of the Industrial Revolution, sparked by Catholic economic and social thought and action in the West, we would still be eking out an existence as before that development. Catholic teaching, especially social teaching outlines the morality of this interaction.
Free enterprise is not a world of its own, it is a set of principles based on cause and effect and developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics for the common good.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I’m very sympathetic towards those living in poverty, but I have to wonder whether capitalism was in God’s will. Look at how the world changed over the past 100 years or so. I doubt that such change could have happened without capitalism. Are we not one nation under God? Why did God choose all this?
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tonyrey
Guest
How do we decide who are unworthy? Isn’t it better to give people the benefit of the doubt? I used to offer bananas to beggars in India and those who were really hungry accepted them
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tonyrey
Guest
God has given us free will and cannot be blamed for what **we **choose. We cannot have everything for nothing…
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mikekle
Guest
Somehow I dont think God would approve at the type of capitalism rampant today, all the greed involved, squeezing every last cent out of something to maximize multi billion dollar profits, seeking the absolute cheapest area to have factories so they can get away with MORE profits, paying low level employees barely enough to live yet paying CEOs and others $1000s per hour, while I do agree, leaders should make much more, there is a limit though, obsessing over yearly pay that someone could not spend in an entire lifetime does not seem Godly to me.
I have a feeling when Jesus returns, it will be not be a good time for these HUGE corporations, thats just my opinion though.
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tonyrey
Guest
I entirely agree with you. Amazon pay virtually no tax and have forced many smaller businesses to close down. In addition to that the working conditions inflicted by Amazon - amongst others - on its staff are atrocious:
independent.co.uk/news/business/news/amazon-devastating-expose-accuses-internet-retailer-of-oppressive-and-callous-attitude-to-staff-10458159.html
International corporations have too much power and are a threat to democracy and human rights - just like the present UK government which is attempting to stifle all opposition and remain in power indefinitely.
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Abu
Guest
As is clear, there has been no condemnation of free enterprise similar to the denunciation of socialism because “unbridled capitalism” has never existed in any society or country as a political/economic system like socialism, but in the minds and actions of those people described as “the inhumanity of employers and the unbridled greed of competitors” (Rerum Novarum, # 6).
As the eminent Fr James V Schall, S.J., points out, this is how poverty in the world is alleviated:
“Since the Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185).
As the eminent Fr James V Schall, S.J., points out, this is how poverty in the world is alleviated:
“Since the Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185).
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ericc
Guest
I am pretty sure Jesus didn’t give away his carpentry work for free. He still need to feed himself and Mum before he started his ministry. And I am not supposing he supplemented his carpentry work with monies conjured out of his miraculous powers.All forms of economy are “unChristian.”
Jesus did not come to give humanity a blueprint for a happy, stable, and prosperous civilization. He came as a harbinger of the apocalypse, which will surely be any day now.
He repeatedly and explicitly said we should not be concerned about providing for ourselves, and we should care neither about the past (“let the dead bury their dead”) nor the future (“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own”).
Therefore go and sell all of your stuff and give it to the poor. Wander around outside preaching the gospel instead of worrying about the body. Discussing economics is clearly pointless since the end is imminent: within one generation!
just joking
His parables say clearly that the talents given to his help are supposed to be productive and generating additional wealth. Those idle were reprimanded.
Jesus wasn’t doing an economic piece on Caesar’s way of management when he said give to God what is due to God and to Caesar what is due to Caesar. The thing to take away is regardless of the economic system, give to God what is due to God. That would be Christian.
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tonyrey
Guest
Democratic socialism is not the same as Marxism or any other form of autocratic rule such as a plutocracy which reflects the will of the wealthy rather than the majority. Unbridled capitalism is not a political/economic system: it is the abuse of power and wealth by so-called democratic governments which favour the rich at the expense of the poor - which is undoubtedly the case in the US and the UK. It is a national disgrace that such injustice and inequality should exist in the wealthiest countries of the world. It is not for nothing that Pope Francis lives humbly and identifies himself with the working class.
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Robert_Sock
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I do not support capitalism in today’s world, and I think the world is about to change towards socialism. My main point is simply that the huge changes we have seen over the years in growth and technology would not have taken place without a capitalistic economy.
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Adonia
Guest
A national disgrace? So what is your remedy? Since the 1960’s here in America with President Johnson’s “War on Poverty” (which highlighted massive government payments to the poor), we still have the poor. Not only that, but giving people something and not requiring anything from them destroys their self worth. Generational welfare has decimated families and the out-of-wedlock birthrate is now at epidemic proportions. Socialistic polices are by and large expensive and failures wherever they are instituted, not to mention that there still exists the upper class now comprised of the socialists themselves who now run the huge government entities that are needed to run such systems.
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tonyrey
Guest
It is probably impossible to disentangle the causes and effects of all the changes that have taken place. Some have benefited and many others have been impoverished. The extremes of capitalism and socialism are both destructive and unjust. Establishing a just society is very difficult because we have to reckon with corruption in any form of government but if it is based on Christian principles there is less opportunity for the victimisation of those who are disadvantaged through no fault of their own. Growth and technology shouldn’t be at the cost of sacrificing the less fortunate members of society. In more “backward” rural communities people are often happier than in the big cities where there are harsh divisions between the rich and the poor which result in crime, violence and ghettos…
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tonyrey
Guest
The abuse of welfare does not justify abolishing the only source of help for orphans, widows, single parents, mentally ill, handicapped and unemployed through no fault of their own. No one is immune to misfortune. It is capitalist propaganda that “socialistic polices are by and large expensive and failures wherever they are instituted”. A plutocracy is the worst form of government because there is no safety net for the poorest members of society and it is certainly against Christian principles.
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tonyrey
Guest
In the UK the upper class is certainly not composed of socialists. There is no longer a government of the people, by the people, for the people but a government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. In the UK the top government jobs are held by millionaires and future heirs of family empires. In the last five years the Tories have DOUBLED the wealth of the rich and DOUBLED the national debt to over £1.5 trillion. This correlation is not a coincidence but evidence of a master plan. The Tories receive a larger sum in donations than all the other political parties put together in return for subsidies, directorships, sinecures, peerages, honorary degrees, membership of illustrious clubs and societies, advantageous changes in the laws - and hell knows what else. But the Google, Amazon and Starbucks tax scandals may well be the turning point in the fortunes of this government, literally as well as metaphorically. Corruption in other organisations like FIFA has caused a sponsorship “black hole”’ and led to a financial crisis no one had foreseen. Even the corrupt don’t want to be associated with others who have been exposed because it will harm not only their reputation but also their income and possibly their legal standing. The penalty for bribery is up to 10 years in prison and an unlimited fine for individuals while companies also face unlimited fines. If any members of the Tory government were found guilty they would certainly lose the support of the electorate because no one wants to be associated with criminals, least of all politicians who are supposed to put their constituents before their own interests. Lesser scandals have led to the downfall of ministers and eventually of governments, especially if there is an impending crisis in the national economy. Lack of competence and lack of integrity are an explosive mixture!
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ANV
Guest
Yes it is.
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