Is Capitalism unChristian?

[tonyrey]

.
An example, so prevalent, of human beings, even relatives, degrading those in their charge.

As long as you continue to disregard the Church’s teaching, so shall you continue in error.

We need to face reality. The sneer of “capitalism” came from the Karl Marx of Communism, and St John Paul II in *Centesimus Annus *clearly dislikes the term, preferentially substituting instead, and seeing the great worth of, the “modern business economy” and the functioning of the “free market”, as well as the "market economy or simply free economy.” (#42).

Not only has free enterprise raised the welfare of untold millions out of poverty, but is emphatically affirmed by Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 42, 1991. How does free enterprise raise welfare? As welfare = something that aids or promotes well-being/a contented state of being happy and healthy and prosperous, the answer is obvious. That untold millions have benefited is unchallengeable.

It is indisputable that one third of the world’s population are living in poverty and many are dying of disease, malnutrition and even starvation as the result of free enterprise.

So long as the Church’s teaching is not accepted, even when known, will there be incomprehension and false conclusions, for as the great Pope emeritus Benedict XVI taught it is “individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility” which need to be directed to the common good.

So far so good but many people have to be compelled to abide by the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. An unbridled free market doesn’t take into account human greed and selfishness…

 

[o_mlly]

… An unbridled free market doesn’t take into account human greed and selfishness…

I do not believe that an “unbridled free enterprise market” exists today . Can you cite such an economy?

 

[inocente]

It is indisputable that one third of the world’s population are living in poverty and many are dying of disease, malnutrition and even starvation as the result of free enterprise.

Then I’ll dispute it.

The issue is that we only have one Earth and we can’t rerun history, so there’s no way of testing whether some other system would produce a smaller or larger population with less or more poverty, fewer or more wars.

What we do know, however, is that free enterprise beat off experiments such as communism, facism and national socialism. The track record is that it’s a lot more robust than the alternatives tried to date, if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it, instead tune it.

I saw it said somewhere, don’t remember where, that free enterprise is a lot like Christianity, in that they both have an extraordinary ability to morph, to survive, to keeping being relevant century after century in culture after culture.

 

[Abu]

Tonyrey #141
It is indisputable that one third of the world’s population are living in poverty and many are dying of disease, malnutrition and even starvation as the result of free enterprise.

NOT “as the result of free enterprise”. But because of free enterprise heartening results have been achieved.

economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim
The Economist, Jun 1st 2013
Towards the end of poverty
Extracts:
“The aim of halving global poverty between 1990 and 2015 was achieved five years early.
“The MDGs may have helped marginally, by creating a yardstick for measuring progress, and by focusing minds on the evil of poverty. Most of the credit, however, must go to capitalism and free trade, for they enable economies to grow—and it was growth, principally, that has eased destitution. [My emphasis].

“Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years. The world should aim to do the same again.”

 

[HelenRose]

The problem GK Chesterton sees with big business is that it takes power away from the people and concentrates money in the hands of a few while most make a lot less while being a cog in a machine, which results in a lack of motivation. Chesterton says when a person becomes an owner they become more interested and motivated than when they are just a cog in a machine. Distributism gets rid of big business and replaces it with small business owners. Which is the opposite of what big business has done to small business owners.

youtu.be/GBMQNrB_VIY

It is in opposition to socialism as well because government does not dictate how each owner is to handle his or her property.

Chesterton called Big Government Hudge and Big Business Gudge (or the other way around)

Capitalism can lead to Big Business
Socialism is Big Government

Hudge and Gudge are equally destructive to the free will and benefit of mankind.

 

[tonyrey]

I do not believe that an “unbridled free enterprise market” exists today . Can you cite such an economy?

The transnational corporations influence governments’ policies, evade tax and drive smaller enterprises out of business. They are a law unto themselves because they have immense wealth, power and influence which they are attempting to increase still further. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership is a series of trade negotiations being carried out in secret between the EU and US. As a bi-lateral trade agreement, TTIP is about reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business such as food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations:

independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

One example: The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised.

Do you still think there is no such thing as an unbridled free enterprise market? If not why not?

 

[tonyrey]

NOT “as the result of free enterprise”. But because of free enterprise heartening results have been achieved.

economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim
The Economist, Jun 1st 2013
Towards the end of poverty
Extracts:
“The aim of halving global poverty between 1990 and 2015 was achieved five years early.
“The MDGs may have helped marginally, by creating a yardstick for measuring progress, and by focusing minds on the evil of poverty. Most of the credit, however, must go to capitalism and free trade, for they enable economies to grow—and it was growth, principally, that has eased destitution. [My emphasis].

“Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years. The world should aim to do the same again.”

What about the millions of refugees who are in unprecedented poverty? Do the immense profits of the arms industries have nothing to do with that? And which governments sponsor them?

 

[o_mlly]

The transnational corporations influence governments’ policies, evade tax and drive smaller enterprises out of business. They are a law unto themselves because they have immense wealth, power and influence which they are attempting to increase still further. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership is a series of trade negotiations being carried out in secret between the EU and US. As a bi-lateral trade agreement, TTIP is about reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business such as food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations:

independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

One example: The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised.

Do you still think there is no such thing as an unbridled free enterprise market? If not why not?

I think your post makes my point. With respect to trade agreements that seek to “Reduc[e] the regulatory barriers” means “bridles” currently exist in law that constrain corporations in their production and distribution of goods and services.

 

[tonyrey]

I think your post makes my point. With respect to trade agreements that seek to “Reduc[e] the regulatory barriers” means “bridles” currently exist in law that constrain corporations in their production and distribution of goods and services.

The laws exist but both governments and corporations ignore them so that in practice there is not only unbridled but diabolical capitalism. Why else are the rich getting richer and the poor poorer?

cbc.ca/news/business/why-the-rich-get-richer-and-the-poor-get-poorer-1.2580263

washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/03/its-not-just-you-americans-are-actually-still-getting-poorer/

The rich are getting even richer.

The top 1% control 46% of the world’s assets – and 86% of global wealth is owned by the richest 10%. Yet two-thirds of the world’s adults have wealth of less than $10,000. These numbers, compiled by Swiss bank Credit Suisse in its latest World Wealth Report, underscores that income inequality has become an international crisis. Credit Suisse also expects there will be a billion millionaires and 11 trillionaires within two generations. “Billionaires will be commonplace,” note the report’s authors.

finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/more-proof-rich-getting-richer-poor-poorer-154916333.html

Do you still think there is no such thing as an unbridled free enterprise market?

 

[tonyrey]

*The problem GK Chesterton sees with big business is that it takes power away from the people and concentrates money in the hands of a few while most make a lot less while being a cog in a machine, which results in a lack of motivation. Chesterton says when a person becomes an owner they become more interested and motivated than when they are just a cog in a machine. Distributism gets rid of big business and replaces it with small business owners. Which is the opposite of what big business has done to small business owners.

If Chesterton could see the state of the world now he would be horrified by the extent to which Hudge has driven Gudge out of business. Transnational corporations now dominate the world. More appropriate names would be Huge and Refuge…

 

[o_mlly]

The laws exist but both governments and corporations ignore them …

Do you still think there is no such thing as an unbridled free enterprise market?

Since we agree that laws exist to “bridle” capitalism, the debate becomes one of political prudence – i.e. are the laws unenforced, are the laws too little or too much, wrong mix, etc. I think such a debate important but it is no longer claiming that free enterprise lacks Christian principles

… so that in practice there is not only unbridled but diabolical capitalism. Why else are the rich getting richer and the poor poorer?

No all the rich get richer; not all the poor get poorer. The free enterprise system has a “musical chair” attribute. That is, the “free” component allows mobility – ask Ben Carson.

 

[tonyrey]

Since we agree that laws exist to “bridle” capitalism, the debate becomes one of political prudence – i.e. are the laws unenforced, are the laws too little or too much, wrong mix, etc. I think such a debate important but it is no longer claiming that free enterprise lacks Christian principles. No all the rich get richer; not all the poor get poorer. The free enterprise system has a “musical chair” attribute. That is, the “free” component allows mobility – ask Ben Carson.

Tell that story to** all** the victims of diabolical inequality. Even if there is “mobility”** the majority **remain the victims of needless injustice which is impossible to justify - especially by anyone who claims to be a Christian. It is a typical politician’s trick to attempt to defend the indefensible by sophistry. If you were one of the “immobile” poor you would soon change your tune. No one is immune to misfortune. If you fall on hard times you will realise it pays to have compassion for those who are deprived of the basic necessities of life **through no fault of their own… **

politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/18/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-says-income-inequality-widest-1920s/

 

[Abu]

Determinism, Dependency, and the Irreducible Person
February 10, 2016
by Ismael Hernandez
Extract:
‘In* The End of History and the Last Man,* Francis Fukuyama tells of the growth of Marxism as an economic system in the Third World out of the apparent failures of capitalism to produce sustainable economic growth. Abject poverty in the world’s underdeveloped countries provided socialism with new life and permitted the leaders of leftist movements to continue to blame colonialism, neo-colonialism, and corporatism for the economic disaster. Dependency theory appeared as an attempt by the left to blame the West for the failures of collectivism. The poverty of the Third World is the direct result of the wealth of the West in a zero-sum game. The global capitalist system keeps Third World countries in a steady state of dependency. As the West controls the rules of the economic game, it maintains other countries in “perpetual backwardness.”

‘Dependency theory was an abject failure for two reasons. First, it misdiagnosed the reasons for the economic failures of Latin America. In reality, Latin America suffered from a pre-capitalist, feudal, and statist system akin to the one out of which capitalism first arose. These were societies committed to a status quo, favoring a landholding class and stifling economic dynamism. Second, it connected the Third World to another bloc, the Soviet one, with its stagnant and ineffective socialist economy.’
acton.org/pub/commentary/2016/02/10/determinism-dependency-irreducible-person

 

[tonyrey]

Determinism, Dependency, and the Irreducible Person
February 10, 2016
by Ismael Hernandez
Extract:
‘In* The End of History and the Last Man,* Francis Fukuyama tells of the growth of Marxism as an economic system in the Third World out of the apparent failures of capitalism to produce sustainable economic growth. Abject poverty in the world’s underdeveloped countries provided socialism with new life and permitted the leaders of leftist movements to continue to blame colonialism, neo-colonialism, and corporatism for the economic disaster. Dependency theory appeared as an attempt by the left to blame the West for the failures of collectivism. The poverty of the Third World is the direct result of the wealth of the West in a zero-sum game. The global capitalist system keeps Third World countries in a steady state of dependency. As the West controls the rules of the economic game, it maintains other countries in “perpetual backwardness.”

‘Dependency theory was an abject failure for two reasons. First, it misdiagnosed the reasons for the economic failures of Latin America. In reality, Latin America suffered from a pre-capitalist, feudal, and statist system akin to the one out of which capitalism first arose. These were societies committed to a status quo, favoring a landholding class and stifling economic dynamism. Second, it connected the Third World to another bloc, the Soviet one, with its stagnant and ineffective socialist economy.’
acton.org/pub/commentary/2016/02/10/determinism-dependency-irreducible-person

Marxism is a form of capitalism in disguise where the the wealth is controlled by the Party leaders who enjoy absolute power, inflict their will on everyone else, often rule by terror and persecution- as in China - and of course is based on the theory of dialectical materialism which is atheistic and opposed to religion of any description:

President Xi J(name removed by moderator)ing of China, widely viewed as the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) most authoritarian leader since Mao Zedong, has instituted a broad campaign to suppress all forms of dissent. China Aid said Christians are increasingly the target of this repression, as well as Tibetan Buddhists, Uyghur Muslims, and practitioners of the Falun Gong religion…

The report estimates that there are about 70 million Christians in China split between underground house churches and state-sanctioned churches in the “Three-Self Patriotic Movement” (TSPM). And the number of followers is expected to increase. One professor at Purdue University estimates that China could become the largest Christian nation in the world by 2030.

The CCP considers the rising popularity of Christianity as a threat to its dominance, China Aid said, and has used aggressive measures to intimidate members.

“The Chinese government’s persecution campaign included forced demolition of churches and crosses, the detention and imprisonment of pastors and church members on criminal charges, forcing churches into bankruptcy by confiscating church property and imposing fines, and manipulating state-run media to label house churches as ‘cult’ organizations,” the report said.

A local police force—including 600 SWAT officers and government agents—demolished the cross last year at Salvation Church, a Christian house church in the eastern coastal city of Wenzhou. The officers attacked 14 church members on July 21 and seriously injured five, according to the report.

Zhang Shaojie, former pastor at the Nanle County Christian Church in central China, was sentenced to 12 years in jail and fined after being convicted of “gathering a crowd to disrupt public order” and “fraud.” Zhang mobilized his congregation to petition the government in Beijing after local authorities seized property that the church had set aside for a new building. Local officials responded by detaining some church members and barring their travel to Beijing. The Nanle church of more than 1,000 members shut down.

The CCP has also tried to subvert the Christian movement from within through a process of “sinicization” or the promotion of “Christianity with Chinese characteristics.”

The TSPM, along with state religious agencies, has instructed members to attend seminars on sinicization and adopt Chinese cultural traditions into their worship practices. Church leaders are sent to “patriotic education sites” to instill loyalty to the Party.

“The sinicization of Christianity amounts to de-Christianizing the church in China and eradicating the universal nature of Christianity under the appearance of constructing a ‘Christianity with Chinese characteristics,’ and, in the name of prioritizing the interests of the Communist Party, usurping Christian doctrine that ‘Christ is the head of Church,’” the report said.

freebeacon.com/issues/chinese-persecution-of-christians-reaches-highest-level-in-a-decade/

The world is dominated by two extremes: Capitalism and Communism. The only rational solution is the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father - which is the basis of the UDHR and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. The most successful societies are those which are democratic, ensure these rights are respected, everyone has the basic necessities of life, the opportunity to develop their talents, choose what to believe and live in peace and harmony.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . In reality, Latin America suffered from a pre-capitalist, feudal, and statist system akin to the one out of which capitalism first arose. These were societies committed to a status quo, favoring a landholding class and stifling economic dynamism. Second, it connected the Third World to another bloc, the Soviet one, with its stagnant and ineffective socialist economy.’ . . .

Being not very well versed in this area, I am not anywhere qualified to argue with the author.
So, I would have to assume that this statement represents what was a political economic situation.
That said, knowing something about it, that being some actual people who were tortured under the Pinochet regime, it is difficult to hold back the rage-tears.
Where does the rest of the world, particularly that political entity which formulated the Monroe Doctrine factor in the equation?

But, that was then, and now we have Haiti, the poorest country in the Americas in political disarray, with an economy centred on foreign aid.
So what do we do?
We can attend fancy soirees where we hear heart-wrenching stories of need and heroism, participate in silent auctions and bask in the feel-good giving of the meagrest portion of what we’ve been given.
It is so detached!!
And, while government aid and NGO’s are effective in dealing with specific needs, they seem to do nothing to solve their roots.
It makes you want to give up.

If such countries are like human beings who have been neglected, abused and exploited, it will take time to recover and grow.
In giving unselfishly, we can make a difference. And, through that act, we too will be healed.

Capitalism isn’t going to solve this any more than fascism or communism.
Capitalism isn’t unChristian, but it is most definitely not Christian.
Ultimately, what solution is possible always rests in ourselves.
I believe we can work in the system, doing our bit as part of it, whatever it is.

What are we called to do by Jesus Christ?

 

[tonyrey]

Being not very well versed in this area, I am not anywhere qualified to argue with the author.
So, I would have to assume that this statement represents what was a political economic situation.
That said, knowing something about it, that being some actual people who were tortured under the Pinochet regime, it is difficult to hold back the rage-tears.
Where does the rest of the world, particularly that political entity which formulated the Monroe Doctrine factor in the equation?

But, that was then, and now we have Haiti, the poorest country in the Americas in political disarray, with an economy centred on foreign aid.
So what do we do?
We can attend fancy soirees where we hear heart-wrenching stories of need and heroism, participate in silent auctions and bask in the feel-good giving of the meagrest portion of what we’ve been given.
It is so detached!!
And, while government aid and NGO’s are effective in dealing with specific needs, they seem to do nothing to solve their roots.
It makes you want to give up.

If such countries are like human beings who have been neglected, abused and exploited, it will take time to recover and grow.
In giving unselfishly, we can make a difference. And, through that act, we too will be healed.

Capitalism isn’t going to solve this any more than fascism or communism.
Capitalism isn’t unChristian, but it is most definitely not Christian.
Ultimately, what solution is possible always rests in ourselves.
I believe we can work in the system, doing our bit as part of it, whatever it is.

What are we called to do by Jesus Christ?

 

[o_mlly]

… If you fall on hard times you will realise it pays to have compassion for those who are deprived of the basic necessities of life **through no fault of their own… **

And what of the unworthy poor?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I have not read the whole thread but I wanted to say that a capitalistic system may be consistent with Christianity at one point of history, but unChristian at another point in history. What worked for Christianity when Saint John Paul was pope may not be appropriate today. Christianity must exist in a state of flux, and changeable, to promote the salvation of the human race. I’m not suggesting that the teachings and morals in Christianity need to change, but it needs to adapt to the times by focusing on different aspects of the Church’s’ teaching.

 

[tonyrey]

Being not very well versed in this area, I am not anywhere qualified to argue with the author.
So, I would have to assume that this statement represents what was a political economic situation.
That said, knowing something about it, that being some actual people who were tortured under the Pinochet regime, it is difficult to hold back the rage-tears.
Where does the rest of the world, particularly that political entity which formulated the Monroe Doctrine factor in the equation?

But, that was then, and now we have Haiti, the poorest country in the Americas in political disarray, with an economy centred on foreign aid.
So what do we do?
We can attend fancy soirees where we hear heart-wrenching stories of need and heroism, participate in silent auctions and bask in the feel-good giving of the meagrest portion of what we’ve been given.
It is so detached!!
And, while government aid and NGO’s are effective in dealing with specific needs, they seem to do nothing to solve their roots.
It makes you want to give up.

If such countries are like human beings who have been neglected, abused and exploited, it will take time to recover and grow.
In giving unselfishly, we can make a difference. And, through that act, we too will be healed.

Capitalism isn’t going to solve this any more than fascism or communism.
Capitalism isn’t unChristian, but it is most definitely not Christian.
Ultimately, what solution is possible always rests in ourselves.
I believe we can work in the system, doing our bit as part of it, whatever it is.

What are we called to do by Jesus Christ?

I believe we are called to expose injustice in our own nation and abroad by using international websites like this one and Avaaz, MercyCorps, Greenpeace and Amnesty International, -and 38 Degrees in the UK - telling our friends and relatives about the scandals we have read about, joining local groups, donating what we can afford and of course praying for the success of our efforts. It doesn’t matter how old or poor or infirm we are we have this wonderful invention enabling us to communicate with people all over the world at any time of the day or night. Pope Francis doesn’t hesitate to use it and so should we.

A friend said to me after I helped start an orphanage in India "It’s only a drop in the ocean. I can’t remember what I replied but it was something to the effect “The ocean is composed of drops”. If we ignore the details we are left with nothing! The butterfly effect applies to every moment of our lives…

 

[tonyrey]

… If you fall on hard times you will realise it pays to have compassion for those who are deprived of the basic necessities of life **through no fault of their own… **
And what of the unworthy poor?

How do we decide who are unworthy? Your question implies that we should have have compassion for those who are deprived of the basic necessities of life through no fault of their own and not allow them to be victimised if we possibly can.